It's not Nostalgia.

[khalltusk]

Gear was never a reward. It was always a tool, which a lot of people misused. Good gear was hard to obtain and therefore - was worth it as a goal for some people. Doesnt make the goal less stupid, though.

Gear has always been both a Reward and a tool. Most common complaint from people about things like challenge modes is there is no gear reward (that has stats).

[Lilija]

Gear was never a reward. It was always a tool, which a lot of people misused. Good gear was hard to obtain and therefore - was worth it as a goal for some people. Doesnt make the goal less stupid, though.

The tool that is hard to obtain is by all means very ineffective tool. That was the problem. The lack of gear that stops you from getting to the point of progression you are ready for as a player is a flawed design. Simply because far too many people will get discouraged before they even get to what they want to do being forced to do something they don't want to do beforehand. For example, I've known a lot of great PvPers who payed other people to level chars for them. For them a max level toon is just a tool they need to do max level PvP (not that I support paying for leveling - just wanted to show certain pattern of behaviour).

Now ofc, the harder certain piece of gear is to get, it makes it more valuable. But if lack of certain gear blocks you from moving further with you toon, something is wrong.

[Deleted]

http://www.popsci.com/science/articl...ds-infographic

While I won't be as snippy or aggressive as you about things, I'll post a study for your viewing pleasure.

You mean you link some random pseudo science which doesn't refute what I linked.

OK.

The general point from your article = nothing new for me.

I am well aware you cannot 1:1 translate everything. Well aware... as English is not my native language and I talk all the time English on the internet.

But that does not mean these words are not similar in nature.

Cause newsflash, they are.

Nostalgia is something from all times, and rampant available in other cultures.

[Destinas]

You mean you link some random pseudo science which doesn't refute what I linked.

OK.

The general point from your article = nothing new for me.

I am well aware you cannot 1:1 translate everything. Well aware... as English is not my native language and I talk all the time English on the internet.

But that does not mean these words are not similar in nature.

Cause newsflash, they are.

Nostalgia is something from all times, and rampant available in other cultures.

You're getting a lot of something from the nothing I said. I never refuted your claims outright or even remotely said that you were wrong. 'Cause, newsflash, you're right, they are nostalgia, just more specific versions of it.

Now, kindly stop snarling and reading between lines.

[Deleted]

Alright

And you are right on the mark there. Everyone and their grandma are creating a guild and recruiting out of the same pool of players. Why oh why does everyone feel the need to "play" GM. Being a good/great GM is not for everyone. It demands (depending on what your goals are) hard work. Most people do not realise it and end up with a lot of drama regularly seen on these very boards and others.

If these people would just disband and join already established guilds (who suits their needs), I don't think we would have that many recruitment issues.

Reason ppl unhappy with high turnover is loot going to waste which stalls progression, it hurts trust cause the next guy may do the same, and their feelings that they are not that special happy place for everyone or that they are inferior players (usually there is a shitload of nepotism going on as well).

The reason ppl are worried about Mythic is cause they don't fit in well as it is (fear of being benched) or cause they are worried about the current social connections changing. The content itself will be better tuned and likely better mechanics (although I was happy about MoP mechanics in general).

All 2 10 man 13 in a dozen guilds gotta do is merge for Mythic. They can even do it right now, but also at end of MoP they can do it and just play 25 heroic.

I have no doubt about the success of Mythic. There won't be any major issues with the transition.

- - - Updated - - -

You're getting a lot of something from the nothing I said. I never refuted your claims outright or even remotely said that you were wrong. 'Cause, newsflash, you're right, they are nostalgia, just more specific versions of it.

Now, kindly stop snarling and reading between lines.

I don't understand why you had to come up with these different languages and claim its not nostalgia cause you were just describing that. You were wrong, I linked about how you were wrong and proved they are similar if not exactly the same (the minor difference wouldn't matter). Then you go on defensive link some random article which is irrelevant and claim I am being rude or that you are being offended or whatever. Tough shit Sherlock. If you spout nonsense you're gonna get called out on it. Now you are so hurt that you need to send me a PM that you added me to your ignore list. Guess what, it doesn't affect my argument.

[Lilija]

I don't understand why you had to come up with these different languages and claim its not nostalgia cause you were just describing that. You were wrong, I linked about how you were wrong and proved they are similar if not exactly the same (the minor difference wouldn't matter). Then you go on defensive link some random article which is irrelevant and claim I am being rude or that you are being offended or whatever. Tough shit Sherlock. If you spout nonsense you're gonna get called out on it. Now you are so hurt that you need to send me a PM that you added me to your ignore list. Guess what, it doesn't affect my argument.

Chill out - both of you You are in fact both right here ^^ Destinas, might have been a bit off with saying it's not nostalgia but tbh it's really just semantics

[Destruktion]

CHRIST LILIJA, why did you have to write a novel for every single point I made?!

Once again, what speaks for the quality of the game? A great game for one person might seem crap for the other one - and the other way around. You are trying to prove something that cannot be proven because it comes from an oppinion - not a fact.

Yup.

I don't know, maybe I'm that great of a grinder that I can't see anything special about being able to grind effectivly :P For me there is nothing hard in grinding effectivly - having a working brain is quite enough. But maybe you could enlighten me with some examples what this "effective grind". If something is mindless it's mindless. I just can't see any kind of skill needed for grind. Not to mention that time of certain grinds was mostly luck based because RNG is RNG and some items you grinded for simply don't want to drop fast enough regardless of their drop rate. One of current grinds existing in game that is great example is the "Going to need a bigger bag" achievement on TI. Sure, you can optimize your routes with help of some addons, you can group up with people for better control of the place, but eventually it's ALL down to luck. And I do remember some grinds required for raiding in past were as well case of being lucky to get that piece of resistance gear (mostly Vanilla NR gear farm)

It's easier to grind for 5 minutes than it is for 5 hours, isn't it? What would you call it when someone has the ability to grind for 5 hours without much of a complaint? Tolerance? Maybe skill isn't the right word.

But people who can invest more time are rewarded for it. I still can't find time to do challenge modes and I envy people who did them. But not doing them doesn't block my character progression of my main goal in game which is heroic raiding. And I know doing them at whatever point of MoP (or maybe even further depends how Blizzard solves it) will be relevant so I simply wait till my guild finishes progression and with faster farm I can spend some of the free regular raid nights to focus on challenge modes.

Besides that, there are still mounts or other rewards for typical grind.

Challenge modes are neat, but the rewards only appeal to people who like vanity rewards. Vanity rewards don't make your character any more powerful.
So people who invest more time are recognized by the community for having done so (when you can see their transmog armor or mount), but that's about it.

You don't understand the point. The competition enforces people to reach their limits leading to burn out and that's not good. I understand you might not know the feeling but since you said yourself you are not a heroic raider, that gating doesn't influence you as much. And it is a huge relief for all competitive raiders.

As for gating on lower levels there is one good reason for it. When LFR was first introduced people felt it's anticlimatic to kill last boss of the instance that fast. Therefor the artificial gating in LFR was to make the lore progression speed feel a bit better. I personally don't care so much about feeling the lore in raids. But at the same time I don't really see any issue with LFR and flex being gated.

If all you want to do is raid, then go play a game that is only has raiding.

Timesink that slowers your progression is a gate. It's a gate that in reality is not much different from current obvious gating. You are trying to deny the obvious here.

Sorry, but that's incorrect. As I explained to another poster before you, by your definition anything and everything that impedes your ability to raid can be considered a gate. Gates are gates, timesinks are timesinks. They are not related.

But it makes whole a lot of sense from the point of gameplay. Once again, the feeling of nessecity and doing everything humanly possible to improve your char is huge preasure for many people and lead to many quits. I'll give you an extreme example from the start of TBC:

Back then you were able to put on yourself all existing elixirs plus a flask. That ment that people felt compeled to farm all of those elixirs and flasks for every raid. Flasks persisted thru death but elixirs did not so you need a decent stock for whole progress night. You know how long it took to farm herbs to make all those consumables for single raid night? Whole day minus raid and sleep time :P And bosses were tuned with all those possible consumables in mind. Blizzard noticed this is getting out of their hands and quite fast they've implemented currently known model from flasks and elixirs not stacking. But more importantly, they've tuned bosses down with that new philosophy in mind.

If valors had no limit, people would farm them endlessly taking it to extreme... and burn out. Remember dailies at the start of MoP and how so many people hated them? For anyone serious about their character progression they were a must. And since that grind wasn't exactly enjoyable many people actually quit the game over it.

It all comes down to design. VP gear should not have been gated behind reps. That was bad design.
I know why the design is necessary for this day and age when raiding is paramount, but I don't have to like it.
If I can get a jump on someone because I am willing to spend more time in game, I would like to be able to do so.

AQ gate was something completly different and unique. Shame it broke the servers :P
I would replace "or" witn an "and". That is a huge difference

By your definition, the AQ gate was gating because you weren't allowed to raid AQ40 or AQ20 ASAP.
Again, if all you want to do is raid, then go play a game that is only raiding.

You are free to prefer whatever you like. I personally found classic WoW and TBC giving rewards not worth the time and hassle - often things you couldn't really influence yourself like other people quitting the game and therefor screwing your group. Sure, that still happens but it's easier to deal with as getting new people ready to jump into your current progression isn't a big punishment on whole raiding group anymore. Believe it or not, most raiders don't like to go back to old content just to gear up a recruit. They can take it for a while for the good of the group but eventually, it will become bothersome.

The rewards were not for ones potential but mostly for time and/or luck to get in touch with proper group of people early enough into the game/expantion in order to do any reasonable progression. I prefer my skill and knowledge to be rewarded - not my time and luck. If the game hasn't changed it WotLK I would prolly quit WoW since at the end of TBC I've felt I put much more into the game that I got in return. I've seen whole content but at huge cost of my time and the cost of my guild, existing since Vanilla, having to disband because at some point were not able to fill up the places left by people massivly quitting due to burn out or simply real life becoming much more important.

This is a game that has to be played with others in order to achieve the best things. But you can't controll others. Therefor, others leaving you for whatever reason, should hurt your progress the least possible. Yeah, it will always slow you down but as long as it doesn't stop you completly or force to do things you don't really feel like doing, it's managable. In TBC the old model reached for far too many people the unmanageble state punishing people for things they couldn't really influence.

You make a good argument.
Honestly, the way the game is going Blizzard should just catabolize every part of the game that isn't or doesn't pertain to raiding. Or make a separate game that is solely raiding. That way, all the people who want to play an actual open-world MMORPG will be free to do so.

But it's the fact :P However, with ilvl there is more freedom and with more skill you go with worse gear. However, with resistance gear, you needed very specific levels of resistance in order to prevent certain mechanics. Not to mention that you had to get that resistance gear mostly in some very silly places (Maraudon for nature res in Vanilla for example)

WoW should be raiding, everything, everywhere, all the time. That's what you want isn't it? There's certainly nothing to be gained from "GATES" like resistance gear except the gate itself, is there?
And where the fuck else would you get nature resist gear? Maraudon was an epicenter of naturistic activity.

Huhuran (well yeah, not full raid but quite a lot of people for the soaking)
Mother Shazzrah - everyone had to have some shadow resistance gear.

And tanks themselves were annoying enough. Let's say your main tank could not come one night: no Hydros for you this time. And assembling frost and nature res gear for all people capable of tanking in your guild took quite too much.

Yup, such is life in the World of Warcraft.
But this is more like Instance of Raidcraft now.

[Punisher069]

You mean you link some random pseudo science which doesn't refute what I linked.

OK.

The general point from your article = nothing new for me.

I am well aware you cannot 1:1 translate everything. Well aware... as English is not my native language and I talk all the time English on the internet.

But that does not mean these words are not similar in nature.

Cause newsflash, they are.

Nostalgia is something from all times, and rampant available in other cultures.

Other languages having different words to describe more specific feelings is not a pseudo science. That's just how languages works.

On topic:

Gear has always been both a Reward and a tool. Most common complaint from people about things like challenge modes is there is no gear reward (that has stats).

Yeah I still see people occasionally in trade complain about how the CM transmog gear is a crappy reward, or not even a reward itself since it doesn't help you kill things faster.

[Thunderball]

The lack of gear that stops you from getting to the point of progression you are ready for as a player is a flawed design. Simply because far too many people will get discouraged before they even get to what they want to do being forced to do something they don't want to do beforehand.

Except that was never the case. People who wanted to raid and matched the requirements raided. Always. Everything else was just a bunch of excuses: I dont have enough time, I dont want to join a guild to see content, I cba to bring consumables, cba to read tactics, etc. People and Blizzard need to realize that raiding is not for everyone. It's not fair to make it the only thing people can do at max level. You cant make raids for everyone (difficulties, whatever) because raiding is not for everyone. WoW is a MMO and MMOs are not for everyone aswell. And please dont try to push that argument about bad design: most of thing that got implemented lately IS INDEED bad design because it's goal is to make raiding something that it shouldnt be.

[Deleted]

Except that was never the case. People who wanted to raid and matched the requirements raided. Always.

Its about networking because else you'll face supply & demand. On my resto shaman alt I was able to enter ToC with 225-230 ilvl because the group needed heroism. But on other alts trade PuGs wouldn't take me even if I was overgearing the content just because of players with more ilvl available. Especially as DPS. If the raid leader has a DPS with 240 ilvl and another one with 230 and he doesn't know either player guess who he takes? Which means you either gotta network or grind every possible upgrade from previous content and even then people would not take you. Remember those 10 man ICC runs where the raid leader demanded 255 or 260 ilvl? I do.

[Lilija]

CHRIST LILIJA, why did you have to write a novel for every single point I made?!

What can I say, I like writting Besides, I thought you liked challenge xD

It's easier to grind for 5 minutes than it is for 5 hours, isn't it? What would you call it when someone has the ability to grind for 5 hours without much of a complaint? Tolerance? Maybe skill isn't the right word.

Patience So maybe I just have it that I can't see anything special about it ^^ But then again, even I can't grind forever. I like to grind from time to time - always did. However, I like it less when it feels forced. When I feel as I have to grind in order to do something else. That's like instantly causing me to hate that particular grind. I love optional grinds.

Challenge modes are neat, but the rewards only appeal to people who like vanity rewards. Vanity rewards don't make your character any more powerful.
So people who invest more time are recognized by the community for having done so (when you can see their transmog armor or mount), but that's about it.

Anything that makes you character more powerfull is in reality mandatory for character progression. Those mandatory points can't become blockers or the progression paste is getting broken.
And well, being recognized by the community is really important to many people We all like to brag at some point. In fact you'll see on this very forum people complaining that prestige is gone from WoW which is the biggest bollocks ever. There haven't been more prestige in WoW ever before - certain activities are recognized and admired as not many people can do them. That is a huge reward on its own.

If all you want to do is raid, then go play a game that is only has raiding.

Please show me one that has raiding even close to what it is in WoW :P

Sorry, but that's incorrect. As I explained to another poster before you, by your definition anything and everything that impedes your ability to raid can be considered a gate. Gates are gates, timesinks are timesinks. They are not related.

I don't know what is your past raiding experience but for someone who treats raiding seriously, timesink that slows down progression = gate. I can't really explain it any more clearly.

It all comes down to design. VP gear should not have been gated behind reps. That was bad design.

Oh, with that I can agree - early idea of MoP dailies was very bad. Plus I really think the main problem there wasn't the "gate" itself but how incredibly strict it was: to the point that when you actually got the rep you didn't really need the rewards :P

I know why the design is necessary for this day and age when raiding is paramount, but I don't have to like it.
If I can get a jump on someone because I am willing to spend more time in game, I would like to be able to do so.

I would assume you feel that way because you most likely have never took it to the extreme. I had and trust me, even tho this might not be perfect solution, its much better than completly full freedom in that matter. Besides, there are still things you CAN take to the extreme but as they are not mandatory for any kind of progression (be it raid or character), you most likely won't do it. That's the human nature kicking in

By your definition, the AQ gate was gating because you weren't allowed to raid AQ40 or AQ20 ASAP.

I haven't said it wasn't a gate. Oh it was quite litterarly a gate But mostly, it was an event. An event that for many reasons mostly likely won't happen again.

Honestly, the way the game is going Blizzard should just catabolize every part of the game that isn't or doesn't pertain to raiding. Or make a separate game that is solely raiding. That way, all the people who want to play an actual open-world MMORPG will be free to do so.

First off, making a game solely for raiding would not pay off Raiders are a minority mostly due to still existing time requirements. Why Blizzard still caters us then, you might ask? Because raiding is the most representative part of an mmo.

As for open world in WoW: it was never really that open. There were always many restrictions. For example, your toon isn't free to make decissions that influence the world. But I gues, that's something that at this point cannot be achieved by any mmo (it's more of a single player trait atm). Appart from that, WoW has pretty open world tho still a bit small. And they are adding more and more things to do in the world (pet battles, rares, world bosses, events). One might argue if those are perfect. Sure, they aren't but plenty of people enjoy them. And I do think Blizzard recognizes the need for content for non raider who are by far vast majority of WoW subs. And now that raiding is reaching really stable point, I do believe Blizzard will have more resources to focus more on the world.

WoW should be raiding, everything, everywhere, all the time. That's what you want isn't it? There's certainly nothing to be gained from "GATES" like resistance gear except the gate itself, is there?

No, I don't expect it to be all raiding. But raiding is what I'm in for 9 years now so I can really speak a lot about it from experience. I won't talk about things I haven't done - that would be dumb. I do recognize the needs of other aspects of WoW but I don't believe raid gating influneces those aspect that much.

And where the fuck else would you get nature resist gear? Maraudon was an epicenter of naturistic activity.

Going to a level ~50 dungeon as a lvl 60 isn't exactly fun for most people :P Raiders especially. Raiders didn't want to go there but they had to. Why not give such an incentive to people who might actually enjoy it? That was the problem with old WoW. It mostly forced people to do stuff they didn't enjoy in order to get access to things they did enjoy. That is bad design.

- - - Updated - - -

Except that was never the case. People who wanted to raid and matched the requirements raided. Always. Everything else was just a bunch of excuses: I dont have enough time, I dont want to join a guild to see content, I cba to bring consumables, cba to read tactics, etc.

I don't want to guild hop to have better progress is an excuse as well? Because you know, that did exists pretty strongly in TBC (in Vanilla bit less). Maybe you haven't experienced it personally but you can't deny it existed as far too many people have experienced it. The main reason for that was gear requirement for certain content, no fast way to catch up with gear in order to do the content you want and are capable of doing, and well progressed guilds weren't exactly excited about gearing up and attuning new people in their guilds. They've done that ofc but ONLY if they started having serious rouster issues. But that also often ended with some other guild members feeling unhappy and leaving. Old model far too often blocked people with things they could hardly influence themselves or forced them to make some social decission they didn't really want to make. Far too much regret in that model.

People and Blizzard need to realize that raiding is not for everyone. It's not fair to make it the only thing people can do at max level. You cant make raids for everyone (difficulties, whatever) because raiding is not for everyone. WoW is a MMO and MMOs are not for everyone aswell. And please dont try to push that argument about bad design: most of thing that got implemented lately IS INDEED bad design because it's goal is to make raiding something that it shouldnt be.

Ofc it isn't and that's why only 1% of all WoW subs step into heroic. And yeah, MMOs aren't for everyone and that's why they are in decline. If things that were implemented lately weren't implemented WoW would have prolly been in even bigger decline.

So yeah, raiding isn't for everyone but those who want to do it and have what it takes should have a smooth entry to raiding. Heroic raiding is much harder and more much demanding skill wise than what raiding was when most of us old timers started playing. And I really hope WoD model will help with that.

Also don't worry, raiding will never become something it should not be simply because certain people just won't do it. You do realize LFR isn't really raiding? It's seeing the lore behind raids - nothing more. I don't blame Blizzard for wanting to show that lore to the biggest audience possible. Also, for me as a heroic raider, I couldn't care less how many people see the bosses. That doesn't make my achievement as a raider any lesser. I raid for the exactly same reasons I did 9 years ago. The only difference is that no boring stuff is blocking me from it. It's my skill and dedication that matter the most.

[Destruktion]

Patience So maybe I just have it that I can't see anything special about it ^^ But then again, even I can't grind forever. I like to grind from time to time - always did. However, I like it less when it feels forced. When I feel as I have to grind in order to do something else. That's like instantly causing me to hate that particular grind. I love optional grinds.

But optional with respect to what? I like optional grinds too, but only if they reward something worthwhile. Usually that means the reward is something progression-oriented, but it doesn't always have to be that way. I enjoyed the hell out of the Netherwing content, and all I got out of it was a nether drake.

Anything that makes you character more powerfull is in reality mandatory for character progression. Those mandatory points can't become blockers or the progression paste is getting broken.
And well, being recognized by the community is really important to many people We all like to brag at some point. In fact you'll see on this very forum people complaining that prestige is gone from WoW which is the biggest bollocks ever. There haven't been more prestige in WoW ever before - certain activities are recognized and admired as not many people can do them. That is a huge reward on its own.

I will be the very last person to deny that the ability to earn prestige is one of the most important features of the MMORPG. I certainly think there are still avenues for that in present-day WoW, though inevitably some have been eclipsed or watered down or "made common."

When raiding is the centerpiece of endgame content, that means all progression has to be funneled through raiding. Putting progression paths in other content means raiders will feel forced to participate in that content. Not everyone wants to progress solely in raids. Of course if you want to "beat the game," you have to raid; it's always been that way, but I like classic WoW's (and to a lesser extent TBC's) progression model better. I like having to attune to dungeons, to get gear and complete quests, to attune to more dungeons, to attune to raids, etc. I like linear/tiered progression.

You and I look at this game and see two very different things. I see it as an adventure, you see it as a test of skill. Inevitably these two viewpoints collide when it comes to game design.

I don't know what is your past raiding experience but for someone who treats raiding seriously, timesink that slows down progression = gate. I can't really explain it any more clearly.

Well if you want to define it that way go ahead. I'll operate under your definition for the purposes of this discussion.

I would assume you feel that way because you most likely have never took it to the extreme. I had and trust me, even tho this might not be perfect solution, its much better than completly full freedom in that matter. Besides, there are still things you CAN take to the extreme but as they are not mandatory for any kind of progression (be it raid or character), you most likely won't do it. That's the human nature kicking in

Never have, never will; I couldn't afford to right now even if I wanted to, not at this point in my life.
But do you see why this is frustrating for me? I want to play a game that has all these different progression paths everywhere, but the people who take it to extremes will always complain about gating and timesinks and burning out.

I haven't said it wasn't a gate. Oh it was quite litterarly a gate But mostly, it was an event. An event that for many reasons mostly likely won't happen again.

But it impeded your raid progression. My point is that gates like that are necessary from a design standpoint. This game can't be about making life as comfortable for hardcore raiders as possible, unless Blizzard wants to turn this into a raiding-only game.

First off, making a game solely for raiding would not pay off Raiders are a minority mostly due to still existing time requirements. Why Blizzard still caters us then, you might ask? Because raiding is the most representative part of an mmo.

As for open world in WoW: it was never really that open. There were always many restrictions. For example, your toon isn't free to make decissions that influence the world. But I gues, that's something that at this point cannot be achieved by any mmo (it's more of a single player trait atm). Appart from that, WoW has pretty open world tho still a bit small. And they are adding more and more things to do in the world (pet battles, rares, world bosses, events). One might argue if those are perfect. Sure, they aren't but plenty of people enjoy them. And I do think Blizzard recognizes the need for content for non raider who are by far vast majority of WoW subs. And now that raiding is reaching really stable point, I do believe Blizzard will have more resources to focus more on the world.

Well, raiding is at least most representative of THIS MMO.
I can only hope you are right on this. Timeless Isle is proof enough that Blizzard cares about the open-world, but it was far from ideal.

Going to a level ~50 dungeon as a lvl 60 isn't exactly fun for most people :P Raiders especially. Raiders didn't want to go there but they had to. Why not give such an incentive to people who might actually enjoy it? That was the problem with old WoW. It mostly forced people to do stuff they didn't enjoy in order to get access to things they did enjoy. That is bad design.

They could've designed Maraudon for 55-60 like the other endgame instances. Hindsight is 20-20.
But forcing people to do stuff they don't enjoy to do stuff they do enjoy is NOT bad design, not in a game like this at least. There are plenty of people who would prefer instant max level for all characters to leveling so they can immediately start endgame, but clearly leveling isn't bad design. Some things are just necessary evils. Having a doughnut after a week of no carbs is a lot more rewarding than eating donuts all the time, wouldn't you agree?

[Lilija]

So first off all I'd like to leave this here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3TIRllbQTk

In earlier part they talk about something really relevant to this topic.

@up
Will reply when I fully wake up xD

- - - Updated - - -

But optional with respect to what? I like optional grinds too, but only if they reward something worthwhile. Usually that means the reward is something progression-oriented, but it doesn't always have to be that way. I enjoyed the hell out of the Netherwing content, and all I got out of it was a nether drake.

Option as in it doesn't block my character progression if I happen to lack time to do in a particular moment. And utlimatly I like grind when I can just do it for the sake of it and more visible reward is just a bonus. For example, I would like "Going to need a bigger bag" achiev to give some reward (A big bag; bigger than any available in game would be great and actually fit this achievement a lot) but I still do it even tho it doesn't give one. I'm a person who visited all Summer Festival fires long before achievements and rewards for it. I'm a person who farmed AD rep till exalted in Vanilla as resto druid by mostly killing stuff even tho going into Naxx was not even on the horrizon for my guild. This kind of grinds I enjoy: something to keep me occupied but not mandatory for my character progression. The moment they become mandatory, they are nothing more than an irritaiting chore.

I will be the very last person to deny that the ability to earn prestige is one of the most important features of the MMORPG. I certainly think there are still avenues for that in present-day WoW, though inevitably some have been eclipsed or watered down or "made common."

And that quite natural. Besides, why hinder on the past when you can earn so much prestige nowadays. I've achieved things in the past and those things matter because I've done them then. Someone doing some of those things now doesn't have as much value. That's why I value achievement system as it shows the dates. Sure, it's not always that flashy as a mount or title itself but for people who actually care for this kind of stuff and are capable to admire them, dates matter.

When raiding is the centerpiece of endgame content, that means all progression has to be funneled through raiding. Putting progression paths in other content means raiders will feel forced to participate in that content. Not everyone wants to progress solely in raids. Of course if you want to "beat the game," you have to raid; it's always been that way, but I like classic WoW's (and to a lesser extent TBC's) progression model better. I like having to attune to dungeons, to get gear and complete quests, to attune to more dungeons, to attune to raids, etc. I like linear/tiered progression.

But progression still can be pretty much linear if you chose to. However, making more pathways is by design idea much better solution as it can fit more people's taste. You need to remember, that a game that fits only 1 type of players will make all other types of players uncomfortable with it. That's not good for the game itself. By giving choise you don't take away anything from people who prefer the initial model. I'm aware that WoW haven't done it all perfectly as its model is always a work in progress. I am aware that some things were lost from the initial model but that was the cost of getting something better for wider audience. And I do believe that with some time, technology and thinking there is a way to bring some of those lost elements back without taking away freedom of choise. For example challenge mode is the responce towards making 5man content more relevant but at the same time not force people who don't enjoy it to keep doing it. I would say that in fact that makes 5man content more relevant than ever because in Vanilla and TBC raiders did not come back to 5mans as they have stepped into raiding. 5mans were nothing more than an obsticle for most of them. Yeah, I do realize that for more casual players 5mans were the thing and challenge mode isn't there yet - but it is a step in good direction and there is place for improvement.

You and I look at this game and see two very different things. I see it as an adventure, you see it as a test of skill. Inevitably these two viewpoints collide when it comes to game design.

Feeling of adventure is very elusive as has more to do with ones personality and situation and the if the experience is fresh or not. I did feel the adventure at very start. My first leveling experience was this kind of adventure and then I didn't mind all the flaws of the game (well, I did mind game balance because people didn't allow me to dps in groups and forced me to heal :P ). But then at max level it was pretty much gone as I started seeing the repetitivness of it all and had to find some other goal to keep myself interested: and progression and proving myself did that for me. And when I've tried to level 2nd char I've noticed how broken leveling was as the feeling of adventure in doing mostly the same again was long gone.

This feelings came back later on few times when I've experienced new content mostly at the start of WotLK, Cata and each content patch of MoP. For some reason TBC didn't have that something for me personally. The game didn't present the story in an immersive enough way for my taste.

Never have, never will; I couldn't afford to right now even if I wanted to, not at this point in my life.
But do you see why this is frustrating for me? I want to play a game that has all these different progression paths everywhere, but the people who take it to extremes will always complain about gating and timesinks and burning out.

But as you are not a person who will take it further than you can, why do you care? You would not feel the effects of those things anyway. I'm not saying all gating is ok (as I mentioned before, early MoP dailies were poorly designed). So I am curious, what kind of current gates influence your personal gameplay. Would you actually go over those certain gates if they weren't there?

But it impeded your raid progression. My point is that gates like that are necessary from a design standpoint.

From the model it wasn't much different from a content patch. However, I can imagine for very small server it could have been a problem. Then again, there were less servers back then and I don't recall any server actually struggling over opening it (apart from severs crashing from too many people in 1 place :P - and that's the main reason nothing like that will ever be repeated ... or at least untill something major changes in Blizzard's server technology).

This game can't be about making life as comfortable for hardcore raiders as possible, unless Blizzard wants to turn this into a raiding-only game.

How those hardcore raiding QoL changes actually influence people who raid less or not at all?

But forcing people to do stuff they don't enjoy to do stuff they do enjoy is NOT bad design, not in a game like this at least. There are plenty of people who would prefer instant max level for all characters to leveling so they can immediately start endgame, but clearly leveling isn't bad design. Some things are just necessary evils. Having a doughnut after a week of no carbs is a lot more rewarding than eating donuts all the time, wouldn't you agree?

Having a donute after you are so miserable that you don't even know if you still want that donut isn't rewarding either. For me MoP donuts taste much better because they feel enough of a reward for the effort. Vanilla and TBC had just too many points where mid way you started to question if you really want the donut thinking about the next half of BS that you have to go thru to even look at it (not even eat it).

[wowaccounttom]

its not nostalgia...........its Nostalrius ~!!!


see... i made a funny

[Darsithis]

Don't necro old threads to post spam posts