Agi+Mast and Agi+Haste gems, is it right?

[Magemaer]

There is this rogue i played with, here's the armory:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...as/Fite/simple
I don't understand much of rogues, so hence the question. Is it right to have half your gems as Agi+Mastery and half as Agi+Haste? If there any particular reason for doing so, such as breakpoints, or is it just wrong?

It's an assasination rogue with subtley offspec (maybe he's gearing for both huh)

[Deleted]

Haven't been playing since 5.1 - but unless something has changed, you don't want to hybridize your gemming. Why the hell would you want to do so in the first place? And why go with some arbitrary number like "half yo gemz!"? Seems nonsensical.

There are no haste/mastery breakpoints for rogues. You'll want to go all-out on the best stats you can gain. For Assassination that would be Agility and Mastery. Both Combat and Subtlety focus on Agility and Haste. There shouldn't be an in-between option.

Again, take what I say with a pinch of salt, since I haven't been playing for a while - however, unless something fundamental has been changed, I should be right though. Going half-half is definitely a no-go.

[Fluorescent0]

Haven't been playing since 5.1 - but unless something has changed, you don't want to hybridize your gemming. Why the hell would you want to do so in the first place? And why go with some arbitrary number like "half yo gemz!"? Seems nonsensical.

There are no haste/mastery breakpoints for rogues. You'll want to go all-out on the best stats you can gain. For Assassination that would be Agility and Mastery. Both Combat and Subtlety focus on Agility and Haste. There shouldn't be an in-between option.

Again, take what I say with a pinch of salt, since I haven't been playing for a while - however, unless something fundamental has been changed, I should be right though. Going half-half is definitely a no-go.

Disregard this post completely. Assassination rogues are currently, gear-wise, at a point where, seeing as haste increases mastery's value and mastery increases haste's value, the two values constantly flip.
While mastery has hsitorically been stronger due to the higher damage it used to provide, RPPM trinkets and meta have helped haste catch up and get to this situation we're now facing.
The best option thus is to balance the two stats so that they have the closest value as possible, which seems to be what your rogue is doing.
Loading his profile in shadowcraft, however, yields a much higher value of haste: that means he should be trying to shift more haste into mastery unless he's specifically stacking mastery for some fight mechanic.

[Magemaer]

Disregard this post completely. Assassination rogues are currently, gear-wise, at a point where, seeing as haste increases mastery's value and mastery increases haste's value, the two values constantly flip.
While mastery has hsitorically been stronger due to the higher damage it used to provide, RPPM trinkets and meta have helped haste catch up and get to this situation we're now facing.
The best option thus is to balance the two stats so that they have the closest value as possible, which seems to be what your rogue is doing.
Loading his profile in shadowcraft, however, yields a much higher value of haste: that means he should be trying to shift more haste into mastery unless he's specifically stacking mastery for some fight mechanic.

That's very interesting to be honest.

[Deleted]

Indeed, very interesting.
Mind if I ask what caused that sudden change in stat-priority? Rogue priorities were very straight forward previously. Simple gear/stat scaling? Tier bonuses?

[shadowboy]

The T15 trinkets and the legendary meta are realppm, which increases the value of haste. There has been strong coscaling of haste and mastery for all three rogue specs for a while. I balanced haste and mastery as a combat rogue as far back as firelands.

[Fluorescent0]

While mastery has hsitorically been stronger due to the higher damage it used to provide, RPPM trinkets and meta have helped haste catch up and get to this situation we're now facing. .

Indeed, very interesting.
Mind if I ask what caused that sudden change in stat-priority? Rogue priorities were very straight forward previously. Simple gear/stat scaling? Tier bonuses?

RPPM means that haste increases your proc frequency.

[PtrPiper]

Because I'm bored and saw this and laughed because I have a pretty good feeling who posted it.

I am the rogue in the armory link. Simple explanation. Was playing around with something didn't like how it felt changed back to full mastery. In fact changed back to full mastery before this thread was even made if I remember right. Was going on the idea of what was posted in this thread that haste will increase the proc of rppm trinks and legendary meta. But after trying it out I think you would need far more haste than some simple regemming can give. So changed back to full mastery.

On a side note this isn't actually posted by someone I played with. This is posted by a mage who applied to our guild and after making some comments on his app he didn't like (even though they were and are still true) he began to attack me personally and brought up the haste/mastery thing.

[Verain]

I'll point out that haste and mastery swap places depending on your gearing- but in ALL cases, the amount gained from going from mastery to haste or haste to mastery is a few hundred dps. It is DEFINITELY not 1000 dps, which is itself less than 1%. It's no difference in practice.

[Deleted]

I'll point out that haste and mastery swap places depending on your gearing- but in ALL cases, the amount gained from going from mastery to haste or haste to mastery is a few hundred dps. It is DEFINITELY not 1000 dps, which is itself less than 1%. It's no difference in practice.

yes but it IS a difference in practice, because haste will lose in almost any PvE scenario where you have to switch targets.

[Coldkil]

yes but it IS a difference in practice, because haste will lose in almost any PvE scenario where you have to switch targets.

Not quite - it's all RNG dependant. You can have a lucky streak and outperform mastery builds while you can be also unlucky and do a subpar performance. Anyway yes, while haste can become better than mastery on paper, the actual fights prove that they are on par at least, and mastery provides a solid benefit in all enviroments.

[Deleted]

going haste or mastery depends on whether you need reliable DPS (like for progression) or want to go for a rank (like on farm bosses). mastery has a lesser variance and is reliable. haste has the potential to make or break your DPS, but it could really work against you.

[Kael]

I really don't understand the comments saying that a haste build sees more RNG or higher variance than a mastery build; it's just not accurate. Both builds rely heavily on procs, and if you get more procs than you expect you'll rank if you're playing well. That works for both builds. If you experience fewer procs than you expect your DPS will suffer significantly. Haste builds are more likely to see the "more procs" and less likely to see the "fewer procs," but their damage for the absolute same number of procs is slightly lower.

Haste has value outside of RPPM as well, don't forget. The two are very, very close for patchwerk. As I've said before and will say again, I'm sure, mastery pulls ahead for non-patchwerk fights because haste relies on staying on-target for its damage increases, and doesn't significantly aid multi-target DPS.

For more information see this post/discussion in the rogue forums: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...4#post21243614 or this post in the warlock forums regarding shifting mastery to haste and back: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...5#post21243875

There are some staunch arguments (in both forums on the exact same subject) that haste is more RNG because you're unlikely to see the extra # of procs it gives you, and for any given pull it may not give you any procs at all. In a 5k haste-mastery swing you're really looking at something close to 1 trinket proc a pull on average, but it helps to weed out the HORRIBLE pulls where you get that-one-proc-at-the-start and almost never again.

Ironically, mastery is significantly better for ranking - if you get 6 Renataki's procs in 3 minutes for, say, Jin'rokh, you can make a lot more use of those procs in a mastery build; this contributes to so many of the top ranks being mastery builds on every fight in the first place.

[Verain]

Another thing is this- a haste reforge for mutilate puts you within less than 0.5% of your "optimal" reforge point for sub, and is strong for combat as well.

Haste is a rough stat for us for several reasons, but I think this tier is about the best we've had since reforging was introduced, with the stats being close enough to support a number of goals without crapping up everything else.



The RPPM trinkets are pretty big game changers, even post nerf.

What's the story on a mastery reforge for sub plus RoR? Is that a thing where you can play off the top of your energy bar and fit in a bunch of finishers (as well as a wicked cool slice and dice), or is that just gonna be one of those things that, even with a 120% slice and dice after the rune expires, it doesn't add up to hang with the other trinkeys?