"I think the Alliance has had strong moments this expac"

[Deleted]

Oh look, it's another thread where Alliance are whining that they would like more heroes, even though they have a shitload of them already. In fact, they have so many that Blizzard doesn't even know what to do with all of them, that's why they turn some neutral. Anyone remember Khadgar or Danath? Still alive! Oh Turalyon and Alleria are coming back! What else is new? Honestly the Alliance is drowning in heroes.

Meanwhile all the Horde heroes from before Warcraft 3 are dead and they're killing off more and more as we speak. People are even suggesting the assassination of Thrall, Saurfang, Eitrigg as well as Garrosh.

Yeah, let's just make this game World of Alliancecraft while we're at it.

[Deleted]

Oh look, it's another thread where Alliance are whining that they would like more heroes, even though they have a shitload of them already. In fact, they have so many that Blizzard doesn't even know what to do with all of them, that's why they turn some neutral. Anyone remember Khadgar or Danath? Still alive! Oh Turalyon and Alleria are coming back! What else is new? Honestly the Alliance is drowning in heroes.

Meanwhile all the Horde heroes from before Warcraft 3 are dead and they're killing off more and more as we speak. People are even suggesting the assassination of Thrall, Saurfang, Eitrigg as well as Garrosh.

Yeah, let's just make this game World of Alliancecraft while we're at it.

That is just total BS.
Khadgar and Danath don't do ANYTHING at ALL (wich is, IMO, Worse than being killed off)

[Deleted]

I think Blizzard have made an outright attempt to focus on the Alliance this year and all in all it's proven that the Alliance players lack conviction. We just don't appreciate anything given to us and I've noticed a significant trend towards inferiority complexes where anything the Horde are given is instantly and discernably better. I see more Alliance arguing about why the Horde are winning than calling out their triumphs. It's sad really. We get awesome character development from Anduin and Jaina and Varian but people complain that they're "too neutral" or "too pacifistic" or "not true Alliance". I think that's the root of the issue. The Alliance have been having a long, drawn-out identity crisis and aren't really sure WHO they are or who they SHOULD be.

First of all I am Horde, I've had exactly ONE Alliance character in all my time of WoW and I leveled that one (It's an rogue) solely to gank friends/guildies. It's also how I first saw what a mess the Alliance Cataclysm zones were and how horrible their involvement overall is.

That being said. What attempt exactly did they make? When the first Pandaria beta rolled out they picked right up where the destruction of Theramore left us. Horde got to root out and slaughter night elf spies and in general get a lot of "awesome" moments. The Alliance on the other hand got to go around and talk to merchants and write down their complaints, after that they had to contract pirates/mercenaries because somehow the entire Alliance fleet got destroyed by the Horde.

Jade Forrest wasn't overall much better and got completly overhauled to be made what it is nowadays. It however is exactly mirrord. Both factions are shown as equaly evil/good if anything the Horde gets off better and yes this is a huge problem especially seeing how they were already building up Garrosh as the big evil guy.

Dalaran wasn't meant to be a fist-pump moment. Neither faction is meant to have that until 5.3/5.4 when we start overcoming our worse halves that have been seen this expansion. Dalaran was meant to be that moment of "have we crossed a line?" where the Alliance are meant to recognise that for all the Horde's faults; they are also guilty of pride and hatred and biggotry. As a Horde, I haven't enjoyed being forced to play as a bad guy and as an Alliance I haven't enjoyed being depicted as a Human-Only society. They're very much trying to enforce the idea that Varian is the "Hero of the Alliance" both with the Trials of the High King (which I thought were working well) and the reminder that the Alliance is mostly Humans protecting other, smaller races whilst enforcing the idea that the Horde is the sum of it's parts and supporting the ideology that the Horde carves it's own path.

Secondly, Dalaran was supposed to be exactly that, a fist pumping moment for the Alliance. Blizzard even stated it as that and yet for all purposes it isn't. The problem is that any Alliance victory that is shown in game is always cheapened to the point where it might aswell have been a defeat. You mention how both factions are guilty, this is not in fact true.
Does the Alliance have a few bad apples? Sure as hell. Everyone does! Does it have anywhere near as much "guilt" or "bad guys" as the Horde does? Sure as hell not and it really shouldn't. And there is no sign it will get any better in 5.3 or 5.4 and the Alliance will actually get what they were promised or what they are supposed to be.
5.3 for all purposes is a Voljin show with the Alliance being allowed to tag along. They are ALLOWED to work with the very people they fought so far, the very people who happily and cheerily for the most part participated in fighting and murdering them. Voljins nor Baines nor Sylvanas nor any other Horde leaders problem lie with Garrosh going overboard on the Alliance nor with anything else he has done but merely with treating them and their races badly too.

Faction story development has worked well this expansion in my eyes. I think the Alliance just need to establish some core principals to agree on. Maybe finally come up with a decent catchphrase. Blizzard delivered you a decent story this expansion. If you still think it's a Horde story and you're just along for the ride then you may be missing the point of your faction's ideology and maybe you're not a part of the right faction anymore.

Faction story developement has worked well, extremly well for the Horde. I really enjoyed the Horde side of the story but the Alliance one? Not so much. The problem here is that it isn't the players responsible to come up with a catchphrase nor etablish teh Alliance principles nor anything similar. It isn't even something they can do!
The only one who can is Blizzard, they have to come up with a catchphrase and show it ingame, they have to come up with principles and morales of the Alliance and depict the faction adheering these. The players could come up with whatever they want if it isn't shown ingame it holds no value whatsoever. Hell you are even contradicting yourself when telling them that they'd have to go along with their factions ideology. How are they supposed to do exactly that when it is all over the place constantly changing and extremly blunt?

The Alliance was for all purposes always the "good" faction no matter how little some people might like that. The Alliance adheres to the classic "knight in shining armor" fantasy. It is what their whole story and faction is based around and it's very foundation. If you try to take it away you take away the very core of the Alliance and make their whole story not work anymore.
This however is exactly what Blizzard has done when trying to make both factions more ambigious and grey. It works great for the Horde, it however isn't something that will or can work for the Alliance because it goes against anything they stand for and they've been built around. Imagine Aragorn keeping the one ring for himself, imagine Gandalf building his own Orc army or something similar.
It cheapens the "good guys" it goes against anything they stand for and it will end up making them a way worse version than the bad guys because they lack the "cool" part.


I am by now convinced that people like you are one of the biggest parts of the whole problem. On one hand wanting to play the cooler, darker, edgier and more vicscious factions aka the Horde. The one who has a lot of bad guys with them (Sylvanas for example) and does a lot of nasty stuff. Yet you want to be seen just as good and justified as the one's you're fighting and that simply can't work unless the other guy is made up by monsters far worse then the ones on your side and you are forced to resort to these things in order to stand a fighting chance.

[Talen]

The story so far isn't what we were promissed at last Blizzcon, but at least I'm glad Alliance is going to be clear winner after SoO.

Did you not read the part where they stated they didn't want to redo old zoens to show case Alliance victories? And just about stated Orgimmar will not be occupied by the Alliance? That a big story next time will be the Horde dealing with the ramifications?


EJL

[Crushima]

If we got some actual use in game for Dalaran's current state it would feel like something. Right now it's just 'oh yeah we did that' sort of meaning. I still preferred having Theramore over Dalaran becoming Alliance-only.

The Horde getting a boot from the Vale is certainly more gratifying than taking Dalaran over.

Never going to happen, the Horde are simply much more popular among the WoW population than the alliance are. As such, the developers have favored Horde wins/epic story lines, and as you say the coming siege of orgrimmar is simply an attack on Garrosh. A new warchief will be chosen and life will continue as usual

[Talen]

I think Blizzard have made an outright attempt to focus on the Alliance this year and all in all it's proven that the Alliance players lack conviction.

No, they haven't made an attempt to focus on the Alliance. They've tried to get the Alliance more involved and succeeded to a degree...but always ina reactive fashion, reacting to Horde moves, reacting to Horde stroylines.

That isn't a focus on the Alliance. That's a focus on the Horde.

And 5.3 shows it getting worse. The Alliance are tagalongs in THE central stroyline of this XPac.

Tagalongs. In the most important storyline in the the entire Xpac. One which will have a large impact on the next Xpac. And they are tagalongs.

And this is a focus on the Alliance?

We just don't appreciate anything given to us and I've noticed a significant trend towards inferiority complexes where anything the Horde are given is instantly and discernably better. I see more Alliance arguing about why the Horde are winning than calling out their triumphs.

Triumphs? What triumphs do the Alliance have to crow about? None. Not one.
Every single time the Alliance looks like it might be winning, something comes along to bash them right down. Sentinel hill got burned down. Darkshire was burned. In Redridge you lost most of the team. In Andorhal, you won...and Thassarian threw a hissy fit. In Swamp of Sorrows - can't take away a Horde quest hub (which happened to the Alliance) so the Alalicne actions had no impact. Ina shenvlae, the assault just...stops. And when the Alliance loses, Blizzard takes care to make it extar special. In the Barrens, Cheesy hat destroyed a major fortress. In Silverpine, the rookies destory the elite 7th legion.

And in Dalaran...the fist bumping moment is the Alliance beats up shopkeepers. And see the horde invade the city and stage a dramatic rescue.

That is Blizzards idea of a fist bumping moment of glory.

It stinks. It stinks to high heaven.

We get awesome character development from Anduin and Jaina and Varian but people complain that they're "too neutral" or "too pacifistic" or "not true Alliance".

Anduin literally sees his friends and allies killed in front of him. He is threatened with death. He sees the Horde kill people for sport. And his response? "Ain't they cool!!!". He is on he same level as Malfurion.

Blizzard delivered you a decent story this expansion.

I've yet to see it.

The Horde attack an Alliance ship, capture Anduin and the Alalicne come to his rescue. Only to see the Stockholm syndrome in action and watch as he runs away.
The Horde invades Pandaria to secure resources; the Alliance invades to stop them.
The Horde searches for the Divine bell forcing the Alliance to race after it too.
The Horde steals the Great Bell, the Alliance beats up shopkeepers.
The Horde stages a dramatic prison break...the Alliance hem and haw.

The Horde rebels against Garrosh and thee Alliance....wander up to Vol'jin and ASK PERMISSION to join in.

If you still think it's a Horde story and you're just along for the ride then you may be missing the point of your faction's ideology and maybe you're not a part of the right faction anymore.

Or Blizzard aren't doing an Alliance story.

You seem to think there is one in MoP?

What is it?


EJL

[Xilurm]

Yeah. It'd be cool if Varian steps back to lead the Alliance as a central figure, allowing another hero to fulfill the role of front line general.

Imagine if he goes neutral. Now that would be abig blow to Alliance. Especially if Alleria joins him.

[Northem]

Playing through the Dalaran "purge" left me feeling pretty sick with a bad taste in my mouth being Alliance.

Here we go again with the same story ...

Let's see, what's wrong with cleaning a city of the Alliance of Horde slag?

Thank God, Jaina for once in her pitiful life showed that she is part of the Alliance, and do you think she was wrong? Incredible. So goes the Alliance ...

Also, mark my words: this "alliance 'fist pumping'" will be wasted when Dalaran, the Kirin tor and Jaina herself return to the neutrality when Garrosh die ...

[Deleted]

Here we go again with the same story ...

Let's see, what's wrong with cleaning a city of the Alliance*of Horde slag?

Thank God, Jaina for once in her pitiful life showed that she is part of the Alliance, and do you think she was wrong? Incredible. So goes the Alliance ...

Also, mark my words: this "alliance 'fist pumping'" will be wasted when Dalaran, the Kirin tor and Jaina herself return to the neutrality when Garrosh die ...

Wont happen. Dalaran is with the alliance for good now. Alltough it will never be shown cause blizzard "dont want to waste time redoing old zones"

[Xilurm]

Here we go again with the same story ...

Let's see, what's wrong with cleaning a city of the Alliance of Horde slag?

Thank God, Jaina for once in her pitiful life showed that she is part of the Alliance, and do you think she was wrong? Incredible. So goes the Alliance ...

Also, mark my words: this "alliance 'fist pumping'" will be wasted when Dalaran, the Kirin tor and Jaina herself return to the neutrality when Garrosh die ...

That or she is killed because obviously she is a "crazy bitch". And I'm pretty sure only Horde players say that.

[Deleted]

That or she is killed because obviously she is a "crazy bitch". And I'm pretty sure only Horde players say that.

I say that too. She is crazy. Not in a good way tough. She is stupid crazy.

So she sacrifices her father to help the horde and be friends with the horde.
The horde then Destroys her city.
She is pissed.
Goes to dalaran.
TRUSTS The horde again.
Betcha didnt see annother betrayal coming, stupid jaina.

[deathonabun]

I just wanted to say I really liked the purging of Dalaran from the Alliance perspective. Early on in the 5.1 quest line, Varian sends Anduin and the player to Dalaran to ask Jaina for the Kirin'tor's aide in Pandaria. At this point, and in spite of what happened to Theramore, Jaina insists that the Kirin'tor must remain neutral. I admired Jaina for that. In spite of everything that had happened to her personally, she understood and respected the neutrality her new position required.

It was only later, when she discovered that Darnassus had been infiltrated and was able to trace the trespassers back to Dalaran, that it became obvious to her that others in the Kirin'tor, presumably Sunreavers, had unilaterally broken that vow of neutrality. It was with this act of betrayal from within her own faction (and by faction, I mean the Kirin'tor) that she was justified in revoking the Sunreavers' Kirin'tor membership cards.

With the remaining Sunreavers in open allegiance with the horde, there was no reason for Jaina and rest of the Kirin'tor to remain neutral. It was then she informed Varian that he would finally get the assistance he'd originally asked for.

As for everyone saying she's gone crazy or whatever, I don't think she's crazy at all. She's always been the Alliance's major peace broker. The only difference is now she's decided, and rightfully so, that the first step on the road to peace is removing Garrosh Hellscream as Warchief. Whether her personal desire to see Garrosh defeated is to be labeled as a quest for justice or a thirst for revenge is just semantics as far as I'm concerned.

[Xilurm]

I say that too. She is crazy. Not in a good way tough. She is stupid crazy.

So she sacrifices her father to help the horde and be friends with the horde.
The horde then Destroys her city.
She is pissed.
Goes to dalaran.
TRUSTS The horde again.
Betcha didnt see annother betrayal coming, stupid jaina.

But that's because Blizzard can't afford to have someone opposing the Horde. They love them too much.

[Thetruth1400]

Never going to happen, the Horde are simply much more popular among the WoW population than the alliance are. As such, the developers have favored Horde wins/epic story lines, and as you say the coming siege of orgrimmar is simply an attack on Garrosh. A new warchief will be chosen and life will continue as usual

This wasn't always the case. In fact the reason Horde got Blood Elves in the first place was to help balance out the factions as Alliance was so much more popular than the Horde. If what you were saying were true in any way, focus would have been on Alliance story and development instead. They're a company and they need to focus on their entire player base. Obviously though, that's something they've forgotten.

Until the time comes when they put in equal time for both Horde and Alliance, there will continually be this divide. There are tons of examples out there of Alliance players that have quit because the incompetency on Blizzard's part to give them interesting and immersing content. Instead, the Alliance exists, as of now, as a backing for Horde story and progression. The few victories the Alliance gets are hollow and never reflected in game. Blizzard blames that on not wanting to spend time redoing zones again, but as a result, they make the story points useless. An example; Alliance are supposed to have taken back Dalaran. There's one quest line that you do that in, and after that, nothing is shown in game besides a few lines of text. The advancement of story for Alliance isn't there.

I agree with your ending comment though. When all is said and done, a new warchief will appear, Org will remain, although they'll probably devote the time to updating that model so the Horde knows something happened there, and things will continue as normal. Alliance will see no changes to even know the siege took place.

Horde focus, that's all that truly matters.

Wont happen. Dalaran is with the alliance for good now. Alltough it will never be shown cause blizzard "dont want to waste time redoing old zones"

Nope, Dalaran will probably never return as an Alliance only city anywhere. Org however will get the full overhaul to actually see the changes that happen. Come 5.4 I expect phasing to have happened in Org to those that do the raid. After 5.4 (5.5 or 6.0) You better believe that they'll have a a completely redone Org though, if not an entire new city that is the new capitol for the Orcs. Can't have the Horde not getting things now can we?

[Pull My Finger]

Seriously, this constant crying about Alliance and Horde lore and who had more wins in what patch and who had more epic moments and more micropercent of "faction pride" in a set period of time is beyond ridiculous. Can't you just follow a story a be somewhat entertained.

[Thetruth1400]

Seriously, this constant crying about Alliance and Horde lore and who had more wins in what patch and who had more epic moments and more micropercent of "faction pride" in a set period of time is beyond ridiculous. Can't you just follow a story a be somewhat entertained.

If there was a story for Alliance, sure those players could be entertained. Sadly, the Alliance story is, "Horde is up to this, you better go stop them!"

Alliance exists solely in a reactionary action to things Horde do. It's been that way since Cataclysm and frankly the players are tired of it. Even in 5.3, Alliance don't get story, they get to ask permission from Vol'jin to participate in further Horde story advancement.

They're completely justified in wanting something that's focused on them. What the majority of players, Horde specifically, aren't seeing is that to sit back and have your story told through someone else is not fun for the player. You're just along for the ride, not actually in the action.

[Dristereau]

For me it has been more balanced than say Cataclysm, but I still consider the Horde to have a better story. 5.1 was pretty balanced. The Alliance Scenario was fairly crap, enjoyed the Horde one a lot. My main issue was the way Dalaran played out. To say it was meant to be an Alliance victory, my view is that it finally united the Sunreavers with the Blood Elves and broke down Varian's talks with Lor'themar. The Alliance got back a City it should have had from the start and Rommath still managed to break into it and free a bunch of Blood Elves. Also expecting another Mana Bomb/ Andorhal/ Stonetalon Bomb/ Kraken to end up destroying it sooner or later. 5.2 is also relatively balanced, but the way Lor'themar went from being a nobody to being freaking awesome is fantastic and giving the Blood Elves some much needed love, and on the other side we have Jaina (again). Also assuming the Velen idea got scrapped. 5.3 seems completely one sided. Horde has Green Jesus, Vol'jin, Baine and Chen, plus defending Sen'jin and taking Razor Hill. Alliance gets to control Robocat and gets a letter from Varian. Yay?

Unless 5.4 is the Alliance doing something absolutely amazing and pretty much shooting lazers out of their rears, I can't see it being that great. Let's face it, Vol'jin or Saurfang are going to get the kill on Garrosh. I can't honestly see Green Jesus' head on a pike either, and as much as I don't love Thrall, I don't want him to die, even as an Alliance player mainly. Assuming Worgen, Draenei and Gnomes are going to be neglected entirely. Dwarves and Night Elves have popped up for a Scenario, so we won't see them again. Then we'll go to fight the Burning Legion and Turalyon will be hugging Orcs and Alleria and Trolls will be dancing together. Shows how much pride I have of the Alliance at the moment.

---------- Post added 2013-04-27 at 05:13 PM ----------

They're completely justified in wanting something that's focused on them. What the majority of players, Horde specifically, aren't seeing is that to sit back and have your story told through someone else is not fun for the player. You're just along for the ride, not actually in the action.

Eg. Gilneas, Ivar Bloodfang, Vandaar Stormpike and Darius Crowley, Destruction of the Stormpike Fingers of Hillsbrad. Got to play Horde to actually see the ending to Gilneas and how the Stormpike get blown up.

[Syferite]

The biggest gripe I had with Cata was how the Night Elves reclaiming the lumber camp was completely overlooked. There was no follow-up, no celebration, nothing. It wasn't even in the main questing line and you had to be actively hoping to finish the entire zone after out leveing it (i was doing it without heirlooms and didn't do any dungeon) or going after loremaster to see it. Compare this to the Horde blowing up a druid school. You had involvement of Garrosh! While the only follow-up from the Night Elves was "the Horde doesn't understand beauty "

Honestly, the Alliance side of things is a mess. Everything in game just feels "meh" and the anger you see on forums is just a means to vent out the annoyance of all the wasted potential. I recall reading an argument that the Alliance is nothing but foil to the Horde. I really do believe that after playing Horde. I just can't bring myself to play Alliance anymore.

Maybe everyone should do the same.

[Deleted]

Never going to happen, the Horde are simply much more popular among the WoW population than the alliance are. As such, the developers have favored Horde wins/epic story lines, and as you say the coming siege of orgrimmar is simply an attack on Garrosh. A new warchief will be chosen and life will continue as usual

Actually up untill BC the Alliance was more numerous and even nowadays it's about even overall.

Also, mark my words: this "alliance 'fist pumping'" will be wasted when Dalaran, the Kirin tor and Jaina herself return to the neutrality when Garrosh die ...

I am still convinced this will happen.

Eg. Gilneas, Ivar Bloodfang, Vandaar Stormpike and Darius Crowley, Destruction of the Stormpike Fingers of Hillsbrad. Got to play Horde to actually see the ending to Gilneas and how the Stormpike get blown up.

Only ever leveled one Alliance and that was no worgen, so does the Alliance ever actually come into contact with Ivar Bloodfang? And can I assume Horde canonical won Alterac valley and wiped out the Stormpikes?

[Deleted]

Actually up untill BC the Alliance was more numerous and even nowadays it's about even overall.


I am still convinced this will happen.


Only ever leveled one Alliance and that was no worgen, so does the Alliance ever actually come into contact with Ivar Bloodfang? And can I assume Horde canonical won Alterac valley and wiped out the Stormpikes?

The Alliance Worgen dosen't see Ivar anywhere.
Not sure who won alterac tough...