you seem to miss the part where like 65% of that healing is tied to 2 abilities sacred shield and seal of insight both of which are 100% healing on ourselfs. Paladins take more damage than other tanks. We are build around a 100% uptime on sacred shield and using SOI right now. Remember dk's in wrath and early cata doing the same HPS as healers. dk's were still shit. Its not SOI/SS that are the problems its everything else and the 500k+ 5 stack WOG crit's on some fights. Biggest WOG i've seen on myself this tier was prob solo tank iron qon p3 and was close to 700k.
Any Paladin can do that; read the thread, that's already been established. The problem is that Blizzard's idea of tank mechanics is "does a stacking physical debuff" which means BoP can be abused. A Holy or Ret using Clemency can provide that dispel too. It doesn't make Prot OP.
Oh also regarding healing; you cannot remove our SS/SoI heals because we are built around healing ourselves. Warriors have a passive 25% damage reduction, we don't. Our DR comes in the form of healing ourselves, shielding ourselves and our active mitigation/blocks. Different classes are different. Stop comparing apples and oranges.
Last edited by mmoc4359933d3d; 2013-04-30 at 07:58 AM.
If your paladin is doing more healing than any of your healers, your healers are bad. 45-50k hps of which 35k is self-healing is where prot palas are at this moment.
Considering, that it's not that important how much you heal but WHEN you heal, my monk doing 150k raid hps on Megaera is much more OP.
Paladin "Healing" is heavily self preservation from Insight and Sacred Shield. There's some spillover to the raid but it's not nearly as game changing as say Disc Priest's dps+fullhealing. Paladins bring HoP, DS and Aura Mastery that counter many mechanics in ToT very hard though, and because their rotation (if one can call bashing every skill that generates HP asap a rotation) is simple pretty much all the time coordinating these utility spells is very easy.
But it's not like other tanks are garbage, Monks do tons of damage and have great mitigation up all the time, Warriors have strong buffs and debuffs (all hail the Skull Banner), good deathknights can blood shield their way through many of the same difficulties as a paladin and in many cases can do it while being less spiky, and druids have stampeding roar + brez + tranq.
I play Warrior prot because I prefer to heal on my paladin rather than tank but I don't really consider a paladin tank essential for a raid, the cheesiest of paladin tricks are shared by all paladins.
Naftc, "Hunters are the cheapest class in game and when played right are more deadly than a train plowing through a field of bunnies covered in napalm"
Sacred shield just needs to scale a bit less crazily
I’ve had a good laugh at all the people trying to justify (more likely to themselves) an opinion that is demonstrably wrong.
Protection paladins are broken.
There, I said it – they’re not strong, they’re flat out broken. Yes, other paladins bring Hand of Protection (or two, if they’ve talented it). Yes, Vengeance scaling is causing problems. Yes, there was a nerf on the PTR already. Yes, haste-gearing has an impact.
But anyone arguing that paladins aren’t the best tanks in the game right now, and by a distance, is kidding themselves. Hell, in 10-man, they allow you to shed an entire healer, which is of dramatic help in heroic modes.
Having said all of that:
There’s a lot of truth in this comment. Trying to fix something mid-tier, something that’s going to hit a lot of guilds very hard, is something Blizzard just can’t do. They’d be punishing guilds for a design mistake, and that’s not fair to players.
For me, the only choice they’ve got is to simply downtune the abilities that are causing the issue, hopefully without going too far. Battle healer has been mentioned but Alabaster Shield, Word of Glory and Light’s Hammer all need attention in order to bring paladins back in line from a healing point of view. Why they scale with Vengeance utterly escapes me, considering far worse healing talents such as Impending Victory don’t.
Mid-tier, and maybe even mid-expansion, that’s about as far as you can go. But as said previously, the inconsistencies in design highlight, at least to me, that paladins are simply designed to be better than the other tanks.
Make of that what you will.
The Prot Pally is the only one doing the kind of DPS they are capable of. The Mage, Shaman and Hunter need to get better, there is no excuse for doing less than 100k dps in 500-520 gear.
And the disc priest smiting is how the spec works!
Alabaster Shield is a pure DPS glyph (and in single-target fights a lesser dps increase than Focused Shield.Alabaster Shield,
My WoG heals me for about 30k unbuffed. Why would I EVER hit WoG to heal myself when I have nearly 900k life when raid buffed when the shaman health increase if it only healed for 30k? The majority of the WoG increase comes from Bastion of Glory (1% more WoG healing per mastery, stacks 5 times).Why they scale with Vengeance utterly escapes me
Last edited by Butler to Baby Sloths; 2013-04-30 at 09:24 AM.
Make Sacred Shield stop scaling with haste, just Vengeance.
Make Light's Hammer and Holy Prism stop scaling with Vengeance and leave Veng scaling to personal heals only (like Seal of Insight)
Fix the abusability of tank debuffs by all HoPs from all Paladins
All 4 are relatively easy fixes that still leave most of Prot's signature strengths and abilities intact and remove the major points of OPness. If you wanna take it a step further you can fix other tanks to have comparable active mitigation but that's not a problem with Pallies, their active mitigation works the way its meant to by design. If anything other tanks need a change to catch up.
Honestly if it was up to me I'd have them remove the whole haste thing altogether and remove vengeance from the game. I find both to be clunky dumb mechanics for tanks, I much preferred it the way it was in Vanilla - WotLK. If they wanted tanks to care about DPS and not just do shit damage with high threat modifiers then they can make them scale damage with stamina or mastery or some tank stat. Vengeance as a concept leads to so many weird, impossible to balance and just... silly... scenarios.
Last edited by mmocf1640b68b7; 2013-04-30 at 09:34 AM.
This thread is nearly close to dead boring to read. It is full with hate and anger.
First of all, how will eventual nerf of paladins make u progress more? It wont!
2nd: How can paladin healing be OP when 80% of it is self heal? It is not, in fact i am thinking there is gona be soon a whine thread that healers cant outheal Blood DK's, since if paladins do almost as a healer, blood dk's outheal healers.
3rd: You want vengeance to not scale with healing spells? Okay lets remove vengeance scaling from all tanks to be fair? Don't think you would agree.
The only problem with tanks atm is that avoidance based tanks are bad on bosses like Horridon, cuz they cant dodge triple puncture, but that doesnt make the boss unkillable in any way. DK's kinda need some more raid presence, since AMZ is rubbish.
On the other hand paladin and monks are way funnier to play in my view.
Isn't this getting abit old? Allowing broken specs to exist because fixing them would not help others?
This whole tier has been messed up by how OP paladin tanks are. If you haven't got one that's 4-5 bosses less you can kill in the same time. 1 spec should never get to a state where prot pala is right now.
And just for facts, i don't even play a tank class. Yes ofcourse you can do everything without a paladin tank, but that is like doing all bosses without any raid buffs. You will be severely handicapped.