1.3 million sub drop

[Conscious]

Indeed, because it was successful from all sides. What was it's main competitors at time of release? EverQuest I and II.

EverQuest I it is like doing WoW heroic mode times eleven all the time (not in raids only) - it is not the best analogy but so you could understand. And it greatly suffered from loading screen and fps issues (especially after Luclin or what was that expansion), even though it has much inferior graphics to WoW - loading screen could take up several minutes, while in WoW it's near instant. Corpse run could become a pure torture, as you often had to pass through multiple loading screens to get to your corpse...

EverQuest II? It was like WoW, but it had so high hardware demands, so it wasn't successful at all, and people only really started to check on it several years later.

So where does this leave us?

The graphics in WoW (or lack there-of) have become more of a detriment than anything.

The community has grown to expect the play-ability standard they've got, but can't seem to accept the fact that it looks like shit any longer.

Show me a few MMO's that have better graphics, perform at a high level with them turned up and can have 100 players on the screen with no lag? Rift? FPS drops to 25 because the engine is garbage? SWTOR? Same thing and there weren't even high resolution textures available before I quit. Tera? Nothing but complaints about crappy FPS on good computers.

A lot of this depends on your PC, so we're arguing subjectively here.

[Ferocity]

Don't try to evade your own logic.Your logic applies to single players too.You said it's better to keep a game old and low quality to attract more players.What does the game being multiplayer or singleplayer have to do with it?

In singleplayer you can have top end graphics and it might run smooth as it doesn't load so many things and have to sync so many things as MMO games, especially what concerns such events as raids. If you turn same singleplayer into multiplayer, it's hardware requirements will fly up skyhigh - I don't know why so many MMO posters can't understand such basic things and keep asking for "better graphics".

[Tharkkun]

If u believe this then why did u say that Wow looks equally as good on Ultra settings than all other current MMOs out there?

Backtracking is still backtracking...

Pretty sure I said that.

[bergmann620]

Free to play? Sure, in 10 years when WoW is down to 2 million players.

The reason that WoW is experiencing drops has nothing to do with content per se... The most compelling 'content' in WoW has always been your friends/guild. If you have a fun, social guild, you generally keep playing.

Now, I'll definitely agree that game changes that lessen the 'need' for a guild tend towards weakening guild structure, and that, in turn, leads to less social bonding.

It's the primary reason that most other MMO's never seen to really catch on- they never manage to develop the critical mass needed to populate a friend's list or guild roster with invested players.

[Tharkkun]

A lot of this depends on your PC, so we're arguing subjectively here.

Well of course. If you have a older PC then you can't take advantage of the more detailed graphics in any game. But I can jack up everything (except shadows, shadows suck balls) and sit between 60-100fps at 1920x1080. I did the same on Planetside and it screams as well.

So in my eyes WoW can look amazing.

[Conscious]

Free to play? Sure, in 10 years when WoW is down to 2 million players.

Somehow I think it'll be sooner than ten years.

Well of course. If you have a older PC then you can't take advantage of the more detailed graphics in any game. But I can jack up everything (except shadows, shadows suck balls) and sit between 60-100fps at 1920x1080. I did the same on Planetside and it screams as well.

So in my eyes WoW can look amazing.

There you go, it looks amazing for you, less so for others, etc.

It's subjective.

[Ferocity]

The graphics in WoW (or lack there-of) have become more of a detriment than anything.

There are still a lot of people out there playing on private UO servers (only minority plays on official) on RO servers and what not. Graphics in those games are barely existant if to look through eyes of those who wants top-end graphics. However those games are still quite popular. Graphics in WoW were decent on time of release and they are still very good now. It might be a detriment for only a small minority of people, but raising graphics up would lead only to worse (lol, hi EQII, quite a decent game, but barely alive because graphics didn't make it accessible at time of release).

[Conscious]

There are still a lot of people out there playing on private UO servers (only minority plays on official) on RO servers and what not. Graphics in WoW were decent on time of release and they are still very good now. It might be a detriment for only a small minority of people, but raising graphics up would lead only to worse (lol, hi EQII, quite a decent game, but barely alive because graphics didn't make it accessible at time of release).

The graphics are good depending on where you are in the game, or what you play.

A lot of pre-Mists, or pre-whatever the current content is, looks bad comparatively.

Three expansions from now we'll be talking about how bad Mists graphics look.

[bgwilly31]

i blame LFR. wasnt lfr released at the same moment subs started to decline.

[Osmeric]

i blame LFR. wasnt lfr released at the same moment subs started to decline.

No, it wasn't.

[Conscious]

No, it wasn't.

Yeah, it wasn't LFR, it started at the beginning of Cataclysm.

[Jtbrig7390]

i blame LFR. wasnt lfr released at the same moment subs started to decline.

LFR was released near the end of cata the sub bleed started after cata's release.

If lfr has anything to do with the sub bleed its because people finishing the current tier so fast. But I personally do not feel it has as big of a impact on the sub bleed if at all like others seem to think.

[Tharkkun]

Somehow I think it'll be sooner than ten years.



There you go, it looks amazing for you, less so for others, etc.

It's subjective.

There's nothing subjective about it. Wow's engine doesn't get better or worse by the quality of the PC I am using. The engine is static so realistically everyone could experience WoW on the best settings if they had the finances to do so.

By your logic if I forgot my glasses and went sightseeing in a beautiful country that the experience must be terrible for everyone with 20/20 vision.

[Deleted]

The WoW engine was developed by Blizzard and is modified over time. Each expansion and sometimes patches adds new tech to the engine. Weather effects, sunshafts, shadows, etc. These are all signs of a modern engine.

The minimum system requirements go *up* every expansion. Why would this happen if the engine is not being improved? This is also the minimum. If you turn everything up it starts to look really good. Once the player models are updated everything will be in sync.

Show me a few MMO's that have better graphics, perform at a high level with them turned up and can have 100 players on the screen with no lag? Rift? FPS drops to 25 because the engine is garbage? SWTOR? Same thing and there weren't even high resolution textures available before I quit. Tera? Nothing but complaints about crappy FPS on good computers.

Dude i think u need to dig out the techy discussion threads who have covered this area in much depth. There are plenty of them and some in which the devs themselves have contributed to.

Its basically been agreed that it is impossible to upgrade the engine because of the tech on the realms themselves. From memory this was cited as the main reason that Blizzard could not upgrade the engine. The only way to upgrade it is to rewrite the game AND setup new realms for the new software.

[Deleted]

In singleplayer you can have top end graphics and it might run smooth as it doesn't load so many things and have to sync so many things as MMO games, especially what concerns such events as raids. If you turn same singleplayer into multiplayer, it's hardware requirements will fly up skyhigh - I don't know why so many MMO posters can't understand such basic things and keep asking for "better graphics".

I said it didn't I? ''Not even gonna question the truth of this claim''
Now you're forcing me to.You are absolutely wrong.Don't generalize to support your faulty logic.There are a lot of singleplayer games that require higher requirements then an mmo.
It is true that mmo's mostly have higher CPU requirements but that's no free pass to claim mmo's need to have low requirements to function.
You also just casually ignore all the mmo's that actually have amazing graphics
So your entire claim that it's not only ok but needed for WoW to look old because mmo's in general have higher requirements is a soup of stubbornness and ignorance.You're an apologist.

[Ferocity]

The graphics are good depending on where you are in the game, or what you play.

A lot of pre-Mists, or pre-whatever the current content is, looks bad comparatively.

Three expansions from now we'll be talking about how bad Mists graphics look.

Graphics should change at very minimum to keep MMO project up. It might have many more bad consequences than some people might think. It is not only raised hardware requirements, it is also about feeling of playing some other, alien game, possible disappointment due to not liking new style, etc.

MUDs, graphical MUDs, UO, EQ they tried to remain like they were, though sometimes they were making mistakes (first UO's 3D client and EQ's expansion which added new models... man it was horrible, thankfully you could turn them off, as people had dire fps drops with them in raids , one of main requirements to raiders back then - switch off new models or you don't raid).

I guess people should study history more and not keep mindlessly spamming Blizzard about new character models and better graphics. Will be hilarious if WoW new models end up EQ-way, I hope there will be option to switch them off.

[IdTheDemon]

I bet a contributing factor is the combination of dead realms + ridiculous server transfer fee. My old realm was a med pop server but at times it seemed to dead so I ended up going to a high pop server and I love it.

People have been suggesting merges for the low pop servers for years. Maybe Blizzard will finally do something about it.

[Tharkkun]

Dude i think u need to dig out the techy discussion threads who have covered this area in much depth. There are plenty of them and some in which the devs themselves have contributed to.

Its basically been agreed that it is impossible to upgrade the engine because of the tech on the realms themselves. From memory this was cited as the main reason that Blizzard could not upgrade the engine. The only way to upgrade it is to rewrite the game AND setup new realms for the new software.

Nah, they won't upgrade the engine completely because it would take a handful of developers a couple years and it would alienate any user with an older computer. Blizzard would be better off spending their R&D on an engine for their new MMO. Since it's now slated for 2014 it will be released after XP is discontinued which means they can also bump up the system requirements. The engine is what your PC runs so you are the bottleneck. Servers do calculations and spit data back to your client to interpret, more or less.

Blizzard has the biggest server farms for a video game if I recall. They refreshed their world servers just before Cataclysm and sold them to charity. It would be impressive if they ever reveal the specs and config they use for WoW along with pictures of their databases.

---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 06:15 PM ----------

Graphics should change at very minimum to keep MMO project up. It might have many more bad consequences than some people might think. It is not only raised hardware requirements, it is also about feeling of playing some other, alien game, possible disappointment due to not liking new style, etc.

MUDs, graphical MUDs, UO, EQ they tried to remain like they were, though sometimes they were making mistakes (first UO's 3D client and EQ's expansion which added new models... man it was horrible, thankfully you could turn them off, as people had dire fps drops with them in raids , one of main requirements to raiders back then - switch off new models or you don't raid).

I guess people should study history more and not keep mindlessly spamming Blizzard about new character models and better graphics. Will be hilarious if WoW new models end up EQ-way, I hope there will be option to switch them off.

MY POOR Fatty troll became skinny! (EQ).

[Lantern214]

I bet a contributing factor is the combination of dead realms + ridiculous server transfer fee. My old realm was a med pop server but at times it seemed to dead so I ended up going to a high pop server and I love it.

People have been suggesting merges for the low pop servers for years. Maybe Blizzard will finally do something about it.

You do know that that 1.3 million was from Asia right? Asian gamers never stick to an MMO for a long time, they hop from one to another. Once they complete their goals or content issued they move on. When a major patch with new content rolls in they re-sub. It was bad enough many un-subscribed do to the fact Blizz implemented the pandas. Idk if people keep track, but they go through so many MMO games that are big hits over there and big flops over here.
Im sorta finding it hysterical that people are having this mass hysteria feeling when Blizzard takes a hit on subs. Yes they need to change many things, but you have to factor in that this game is old, and that they want to "cater" to casuals. So it will never go back to "the glory days".

[Jtbrig7390]

You do know that that 1.3 million was from Asia right?

You do know that said that the most was from china and not all of them was right????

Blizzard expects to have less subscribers at the end of the year than they do today.
Most of the decline in subscribers came from China.