How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

[Deleted]

Heroic raids aren't advertising. They serve no purpose other than satiating a very small portion of the playerbase. A big part of the reason they exist at all is because of several of the lead developers' own raiding experiences. It's a classic example of a developer designing a game for themselves rather than their playerbase. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your perspective), it's not sustainable anymore.

The game is losing subscribers at an alarming rate, and before anyone says, "the majority of the sub losses were from China" Blizzard, like any business, was intentionally vague to spin the numbers as favorably as possible to their investors. A majority could have been 99.99% or 50.01%. I imagine if it had been close to the former they would have just said that as it sounds much better to investors.

Ask someone that never played wow before what they know about wow, raiding is the most likely thing they will mention. Of course raiding is advertisement for WoW. Just checking as I mentioned above almost 2 million views on LK25HC kill video by paragon.

Having a game that has not hard content is no substainable. Without hard content, wow would slowly die. Easy content is good short term, but people would get bored very quickly. Removal of hard content would give wow probably another 1-2 years to live.

[D4NNYB0Y]

Ask someone that never played wow before what they know about wow, raiding is the most likely thing they will mention. Of course raiding is advertisement for WoW. Just checking as I mentioned above almost 2 million views on LK25HC kill video by paragon.

Having a game that has not hard content is no substainable. Without hard content, wow would slowly die. Easy content is good short term, but people would get bored very quickly. Removal of hard content would give wow probably another 1-2 years to live.

WoW is already dying.

[Deleted]

WoW is already dying.

Oh... you are one of those people. That explains it.

No, wow is not dying.

[Osmeric]

The silly notion that Blizzard are going to, again, cater to the most undeserving.

The silly notion is that the game exists to reward virtue. The game, as a business product, actually exists to make money. The so-called "deserving" only represent a small fraction of that revenue stream.

[D4NNYB0Y]

Oh... you are one of those people. That explains it.

No, wow is not dying.

It will certainly not be dead in the near future, but yes it is losing a very large number of subs very rapidly. Call that what you like.

---------- Post added 2013-06-05 at 04:17 PM ----------

The silly notion is that the game exists to reward virtue. The game, as a business product, actually exists to make money. The so-called "deserving" only represent a small fraction of that revenue stream.

It's a video game. There's no such thing as the deserving; we all pay our 15 dollars. Some people simply take this game far more seriously than others, which is unfortunate as some day it will be gone, and all they will have is their memories to show for their time spent. I truly hope that is enough for them.

[Naxere]

I would just scrap the whole 10/25 man thing and make every raid 15 man. The way it is now is just too much effort.

[D4NNYB0Y]

I would just scrap the whole 10/25 man thing and make every raid 15 man. The way it is now is just too much effort.

I think it may be too late for that, but I believe Blizzard themselves said if they could do it all again they would do exactly as you described.

[Deleted]

It's a video game. There's no such thing as the deserving; we all pay our 15 dollars. Some people simply take this game far more seriously than others, which is unfortunate as some day it will be gone, and all they will have is their memories to show for their time spent. I truly hope that is enough for them.

Just because Mike and Andrew payed the same amount of money for their soccer shoes does not make them equally entitled to play in the soccer team if one of them plays soccer 10 hours a day and the other plays soccer 30 minutes a day.
Some day they will stop playing soccer and all they have left is their memories.

[Osmeric]

Just because Mike and Andrew payed the same amount of money for their soccer shoes does not make them equally entitled to play in the soccer team if one of them plays soccer 10 hours a day and the other plays soccer 30 minutes a day.
Some day they will stop playing soccer and all they have left is their memories.

Bogus analogies are wonderful, aren't they?

[Deleted]

Bogus analogies are wonderful, aren't they?

How is that bogus? Just because 2 players pay the same amount of money for WoW does not make the entitled to the same content if one of them puts in more effort into his game, simple as that.

A game needs to reward people that puts own effort into their game more than people that does not.

If they do not reward peoples effort, then there is no reason to put effort into the game = less players
The players that put no effort into the game has no reason to put more effort into the game = less players

That is very logical.

The content is available for everyone. If you choose not to put down the effort to see all the content, that is your problem, not blizzards.

But please, educate me which game in the history of the world did not reward people that put more effort into the game in some way. Would love to hear that one.

[D4NNYB0Y]

Just because Mike and Andrew payed the same amount of money for their soccer shoes does not make them equally entitled to play in the soccer team if one of them plays soccer 10 hours a day and the other plays soccer 30 minutes a day.
Some day they will stop playing soccer and all they have left is their memories.

Normal 10 man raids are not a sport. Plus, if you're analogy were accurate they would be paying to play on the team not for the equipment to do so.

*Edit* Not to mention that on an amateur soccer team if both players made the team they would both be playing. Honestly, it's a pretty terrible analogy. No offense.

*Edit the 2nd* These threads always end the same way.

[Deleted]

Normal 10 man raids are not a sport. Plus, if you're analogy were accurate they would be paying to play on the team not for the equipment to do so.

*Edit* Not to mention that on an amateur soccer team if both players made the team they would both be playing. Honestly, it's a pretty terrible analogy.

Everybody get the same tools. Nobody is treated differently in wow. It is not like some players automatically get geared characters or whatever. So can we stop with this bogus "We all pay the same money", since guess what, YOU ALL GET THE SAME GAME!

What you choose to do with your time in the game is up to you.

[saucywench]

How is that bogus? Just because 2 players pay the same amount of money for WoW does not make the entitled to the same content if one of them puts in more effort into his game, simple as that.

A game needs to reward people that puts own effort into their game more than people that does not.

If they do not reward peoples effort, then there is no reason to put effort into the game = less players
The players that put no effort into the game has no reason to put more effort into the game = less players

That is very logical.

The content is available for everyone. If you choose not to put down the effort to see all the content, that is your problem, not blizzards.

But please, educate me which game in the history of the world did not reward people that put more effort into the game in some way. Would love to hear that one.

Lance Armstrong put alot of effort into cheating and lying...so um yeah. This game isnt so much about effort as it is about luck aka rng luck and having a good raiding guild that consistantly raids. You can still put your hardest effort forth and not get rewarded, ( i went and entire raiding year without a shield upgrade) thats how it rolls in wow and life.

[Deleted]

Lance Armstrong put alot of effort into cheating and lying...so um yeah. This game isnt so much about effort as it is about luck aka rng luck and having a good raiding guild that consistantly raids. You can still put your hardest effort forth and not get reward, ( i went and entire raiding year without a shield upgrade) thats how it rolls in wow and life.

And some people pay gold/irl money to get 13/13 heroic. Cheating exists in all parts of life.

[D4NNYB0Y]

Everybody get the same tools. Nobody is treated differently in wow. It is not like some players automatically get geared characters or whatever. So can we stop with this bogus "We all pay the same money", since guess what, YOU ALL GET THE SAME GAME!

What you choose to do with your time in the game is up to you.

What it boils down to Firefly is the majority of the Normal 10 man raiding population is failing at the current content. Blizzard can either tune it properly to the skill level of the average raider or lose more subs. They're not going to get better, they've tried, and this is the best they can do. 25 man Normal raid guilds are dead and buried, the raiding pool is what it is. So it needs to be fixed, because this is a video game, and it's meant to be fun. For everyone.

[Deleted]

What it boils down to Firefly is the majority of the Normal 10 man raiding population is failing at the current content. Blizzard can either tune it properly to the skill level of the average raider or lose more subs. They're not going to get better, they've tried, and this is the best they can do. 25 man Normal raid guilds are dead and buried, the raiding pool is what it is. So it needs to be fixed, because this is a video game, and it's meant to be fun. For everyone.

Or they could change the progression path to allow those players failing in T15 normals with a better progression path aswell as creating content that suites as a better training ground for entering raiding.

Maybe it is better to succeed in T14 normals rather than failing in T15 normals and then come back to T15 normals when you learned that standing in fire, is probably not a good idea.

Nerfing content is not always the answer when content can not be completed by some players.

[Deja Thoris]

Just because Mike and Andrew payed the same amount of money for their soccer shoes does not make them equally entitled to play in the soccer team if one of them plays soccer 10 hours a day and the other plays soccer 30 minutes a day.
Some day they will stop playing soccer and all they have left is their memories.

The club could realise theres a need for teams to cater to the less skilled players and create such a thing. It makes their customer happy and generates business.

That way no one is excluded.

Great analogy with an obvious solution, albeit not the one you were pushing for :P

[Deleted]

The club could realise theres a need for teams to cater to the less skilled players and create such a thing. It makes their customer happy and generates business.

That way no one is excluded.

Great analogy with an obvious solution, albeit not the one you were pushing for :P

The thing is, such a thing exists. However Andrew is not happy playing with other people that play 30 minutes a day, because he feels that it is very hard to get together and play when everyone only plays 30 minutes a day. He much rather play with those guys that play 10 hours per day.
And in there lies the problem in wow.

If andrew played wow for average 30 minutes a day, he got LFR. But he is not happy with that, he wants more. And this lies the problem. People are not willing to accept that what time they spend in-game, and how much effort they put into their characters, ultimately results in the end result on their character.

People want to be "better" and more progressed than what they put effort into the game to be. That will always be true, even if we nerf or buff normal modes, this will still be true. Players always feel like they should be on a higher level than they currently are.

[Otimus]

Tbh it starts becoming tiresome to listen how 5 blue geared people can easily do stone guards or that you can pug 12/12 ToT. Just try and roll on some non top server and try find or make successful pug which will kill more than Jin'rokh. And by pug I mean - don't whisper to any raiding guild if they have any spot for you to take as a pug.

I think you started to play in Cata It wasn't always like this. There were better times. But what was once laughed and frowned upon (some raiding guilds' attitude) is now supported by current raid design. Too bad that Blizzard pretends to ignore it and prefers to listen to people who are seemingly 5-manning raids in blues and doing full raid clears in pug.

Too bad that in reality they can't 5-men raids, otherwise they wouldn't be saying that recruitment is hard. Why do they even complain about recruitment? They can 5-men raids in blues, it is so easy. They can pug full raid clears. They shouldn't complain about recruitment (lol they don't even really know how hard it is to do recruitment on any non-top server now).

I started playing in BC.

[Deleted]

Now stop it with the "I pay 15 dolarz as well why cant I afk through normalz like in lfr?" Just listen to yourselves...

And to Firefly33, voice of reason in this thread.