"I would've already ordered the Shado-Pan to purge this entire shrine. "

[Zathrendar]

No evidence of this, while we do have lore that she is resisting the withdrawal with her children.

It's a reasonable inference to make, not to mention that Dalaran is buzzing with ley energies.

I don't mind that they've done it, but you can't argue that the High Elves then don't have a same right to see it as a huge spit in the face.

I am sure both sides regarded it as a betrayal. Nonetheless, it was not as though Rommath went around forcing all elves to use fel. Fel was utilised because it satiated their addiction, and above all else, was a powerful weapon. Felfire is incredibly hard to resist, and as such was an ideal weapon against the Scourge.

Tell me what is the difference between them and the High Elves who mastered their addiction then? Are they just weaker overall? Are the high elves suddenly better at magical control than the Blood Elves? The sole reason they turned to sucking off demons is because they couldn't handle being without arcane magic. The High Elves in Stormwind or non-Quel'thalas places were able to do so just fine.

The high elves limited themselves a lot more than the blood elves (and humans.) The high elves who survived once the Sunwell imploded were lucky. There was no way to predict at the time whether they would have survived in its absence. I would add this is just more poor writing on Blizzard's part. Quite frankly, I'd say the blood elves are better at controlling magic.

Both sides took a gamble. However, it is reasonable to assume that the high elves did so knowing that they could draw on ley energies in Dalaran, or from the moonwells. This is with the fact in mind that their numbers were minuscule. Is there any prospect that all of the surviving blood elves could have? I doubt it.

---------- Post added 2013-05-23 at 02:46 AM ----------

The only official canon we have is that she was actively fighting the addiction by the love she had for her children. Corny as shit as it is, that's the official lore.

Compared to residence in Dalaran and having an Archmage in her presence, the canon lore rationale sounds like sheer nonsense. They can resist the ill effects of their addiction by meditation according to the WRPG, but it leaves it open as to what that meditation involves, i.e. whether it involves drawing energy from leylines.

[Durandro]

"The Shado-Pan strike from the shadows, so that our enemies fear the dark."

There's the Journal from the Zandalari about how the initial Push on the Zouchen province and they were like "Dang, these are all they can do?" Then the Shado-pan came, and pretty much Stonewalled them-noting they never struck from the front, and how it seemed that "walls were like water" to them,

So yeah, If the Shado-pan can make the Zandalari Trolls crap their pants I think a Purging of the shrine isn't outside the realm of possibility.

Aye, this too. The Shado-Pan are a small elite force, so they can't field an army by themselves. But infiltrate a fortress, kill the commanders in their sleep, take out the guards and then close and lock the doors before booby trapping the entire fortress and leaving? I'm sure they could do it, especially considering they know the place inside out.

[KrazyK923]

It's a reasonable inference to make, not to mention that Dalaran is buzzing with ley energies.

Except its not because there is no evidence supporting it. And not only is their NOT evidence stating that she wasn't doing this, there is actual lore to the contrary explaining why and how she was battling the addiction. Why would that lore even bother concluding that she was "fighting" the addiction if she was being fed Arcane magic?

I am sure both sides regarded it as a betrayal. Nonetheless, it was not as though Rommath went around forcing all elves to use fel. Fel was utilised because it satiated their addiction, and above all else, was a powerful weapon. Felfire is incredibly hard to resist, and as such was an ideal weapon against the Scourge.

No, you're right. It wasn't Rommath. It was Lor'themar. He kicked out the Elves that refused to use Rommath's method for getting Arcane magic. Lor'themar felt that he couldn't rule a divided country:

As the highest figure of authority in Quel'Thalas, ruling conjointly with his scion in Outland, Lor'themar was forced to exile several of his former comrades who refused to accept Rommath's teachings, reasoning that he could not lead a nation divided. This decision would come to weigh him down deeply, during the tribulations to come.[13]

http://www.wowpedia.org/Lor%27themar

The high elves limited themselves a lot more than the blood elves (and humans.) The high elves who survived once the Sunwell imploded were lucky. There was no way to predict at the time whether they would have survived in its absence. I would add this is just more poor writing on Blizzard's part. Quite frankly, I'd say the blood elves are better at controlling magic.

How...uhh...you're not really saying anything in this part. You're saying that the High Elves who didn't succumb to addiction were just lucky and then...the Blood Elves are better at controlling magic. What proof of this is there?

Compared to residence in Dalaran and having an Archmage in her presence, the canon lore rationale sounds like sheer nonsense. They can resist the ill effects of their addiction by meditation according to the WRPG, but it leaves it open as to what that meditation involves, i.e. whether it involves drawing energy from leylines.

Again, you're taking things for granted where there is nothing confirmed. If the "ritual" involved using arcane magic, they would say that. Mainly because that would negate the whole purpose of meditating in the first place. I'll say it again, there is no lore anywhere stating Vereesa was getting Arcane Magic injections from anybody. There also isn't any lore stating that a simple mage, Archmage or not, can do what a fount of magic like the Sunwell can.

[SturdyGamer]

It's also hilarious how the Silver Covenant loathe the blood elves for consuming fel energies out of necessity and then...run around as Jaina's lapdogs even when it becomes pretty obvious that she is unstable and tainted by volatile magical energy. The high elves are just lapdogs to humans at this point in the story.

[KrazyK923]

Jaina isn't corrupted by anything anymore at this point. That was negated at the end of Tides of War. It is part of Jaina's monologue before the Six confirm her as leader.

[Deleted]

And yet both those account are just 'oh look, the alliance attacks the horde, thats ok, there alliance and so its justified in anything they do'. Seriously, it doesn't even bleep on the radar.

You know very well that Dalaran was used by the Horde as a gateway to attack Darnassus. More than enough reasons to kick the violators out of the city. And why shouldn't Admiral Rogers roflstomp the Horde? The brought it upon themselves by endangering the crown prince of Stormwind, attacking a peaceful pandaren village and capturing their children as hostages.

But the horde, oh the goblins dig a dirt hole in the valley of eternal blossoms and suddenly its 'YOU ARE TRAITORS, YOU WILL BE BANISHED' despite, as you say, it was us they helped you god dam pandas fight against your arch enemy.

The hole is just the last straw breaking the camel's back. The Horde - and especially the Orcs - has already proven itself to be capable only of violence and destruction, lacking all noble traits and ambitions. No one would tolerate such a lot of brutes for too long for any other reasons than absolute necessity.

In short... the Horde is hated because it causes only misery in its wake, no matter what the goals are. While the Alliance generally doesn't leave behind only ruined shitholes polluted by toxic waste and demonic magic.

[Redmage]

I'm with OP on this one, they want us to be impressed by the awesome power of the shadow-pan? not buying it. Maybe if they have ever demonstrated they are capable of of anything I would respect their threats.

The Klaxxi are the the only faction I respect in pandaria, infact they are the only thing in this expansion I hope we see again when this expansion is over, even if its as enemies.

[Zathrendar]

Except its not because there is no evidence supporting it. And not only is their NOT evidence stating that she wasn't doing this, there is actual lore to the contrary explaining why and how she was battling the addiction. Why would that lore even bother concluding that she was "fighting" the addiction if she was being fed Arcane magic?

Unless it contradicts what I said, it isn't "to the contrary". Even if fed the addiction itself, the hunger, persists. Even with the Sunwell's return, the blood elves are still addicted to the arcane. The Sunwell simply serves to abate the ill effects of not sating it. So I'd love to know how her 'love' for her children staves off the effects of arcane deprivation, as opposed to being in the presence of an archmage or residing in Dalaran, which is rich in ley energies. Perhaps Blizzard should hire new lore writers.

How...uhh...you're not really saying anything in this part. You're saying that the High Elves who didn't succumb to addiction were just lucky and then...the Blood Elves are better at controlling magic. What proof of this is there?

Hey, I don't really think you're saying much either, so that makes two of us. And yes, I am, because the implosion of the Sunwell could've had far more adverse effects than it in fact did. However, we do not know how long the high elves could have continued drawing on Dalaran's ley energies or the moonwells. The Sunwell was restored pretty soon. When the blood elves chose to use fel, they had no idea whether they'd ever see the return of the Sunwell. Unless you had a crystal ball, how would you have determined the effects of the Sunwell's destruction?

---------- Post added 2013-05-23 at 02:57 AM ----------

Jaina isn't corrupted by anything anymore at this point. That was negated at the end of Tides of War. It is part of Jaina's monologue before the Six confirm her as leader.

Yes, I am sure Jaina's say-so implies she is not corrupted, or just a garden variety homicidal maniac. Thanks for the clarification.

[KrazyK923]

Nowhere did I criticize the Blood Elves using fel magic to survive. I wouldn't because its a stupid argument to have. I am saying that because the High Elves were somehow able to meditate and deal with the addiction and the Blood Elves were not, then they have a total legitimate argument to make against their former comrades. The Blood Elves' argument against the High Elves being "traitors" or whatnot seems like nothing more than a retaliatory argument to make themselves seem better and not just the fact that they were sucking off demons.

So I'd love to know how her 'love' for her children staves off the effects of arcane deprivation, as opposed to being in the presence of an archmage or residing in Dalaran, which is rich in ley energies. Perhaps Blizzard should hire new lore writers.

Because the lore says it does? Just because you don't agree with something in the lore doesn't mean it didn't happen. I refuse to even consider your argument unless you can provide even 1 ounce of proof that Vereesa was being fed magic from Rhonin. Or, maybe you could start by proving that a single Mage can somehow abate the addiction of a giganto-fucking magic well. Because there isn't lore supporting this either.

Yes, I am sure Jaina's say-so implies she is not corrupted, or just a garden variety homicidal maniac. Thanks for the clarification.

The Six believed her story. And they aren't stupid. And then there was Rhonin as well as Krasus. All of them don't count I guess? And she's not homicidal. She's rightfully pissed. If she was psychotic she wouldn't have acquiesced to Taran Zhu's request at the end of the 5.2 story to back down.

[Redmage]

In short... the Horde is hated because it causes only misery in its wake, no matter what the goals are. While the Alliance generally doesn't leave behind only ruined shitholes polluted by toxic waste and demonic magic.

No the alliance just lets their own lands get destroyed through sheer incompetence.

[Zathrendar]

Hindsight is 20/20. Like I said, there is no guarantee that the Moonwells or the energies in Dalaran would suffice to nourish the entire race. The high elves argument would fail, anyway, because the Sunwell was restored pretty quickly. Had it been destroyed for a longer period, or indeed was never reconstructed, there is no telling whether the race could continue on without resorting to fel, or the creation of a new, equally powerful source of ley energies.

[KrazyK923]

So I'm using actual canonical events to argue mine and essentially your counter is that you don't feel that the lore is right? Gotcha. At least I can now know to leave this convo.

[Redmage]

Nowhere did I criticize the Blood Elves using fel magic to survive. I wouldn't because its a stupid argument to have. I am saying that because the High Elves were somehow able to meditate and deal with the addiction and the Blood Elves were not, then they have a total legitimate argument to make against their former comrades. The Blood Elves' argument against the High Elves being "traitors" or whatnot seems like nothing more than a retaliatory argument to make themselves seem better and not just the fact that they were sucking off demons.

I think they considered the remaining high elves traitors because they largely abandoned the rest of elven society and sided with alliance who stabbed them in the back. Maybe if there was any examples of High Elves stepping up to lead and teach how they fought off the addiction you would have a point.

[KrazyK923]

I think they considered the remaining high elves traitors because they largely abandoned the rest of elven society and sided with alliance who stabbed them in the back. Maybe if there was any examples of High Elves stepping up to lead and teach how they fought off the addiction you would have a point.

The "traitor" argument would work if Lor'themar didn't banish people who disagreed with Rommath's decision. Why would they then turn around and say "Oh wait, no, here, let me show you!"

I also find it odd that the abandonment argument is the actual one that is used. They abandoned them because they didn't come back to die to the Scourge when it largely still occupied the nation?

[Zathrendar]

So I'm using actual canonical events to argue mine and essentially your counter is that you don't feel that the lore is right? Gotcha. At least I can now know to leave this convo.

Cute, a strawman. You, as many individuals, simply block-quote and think that ends the argument. My counter is that I feel that the explanation given is weak and does not account for whether her addiction (the hunger) or its non-satiation are what her 'love' for her little half-breeds cure.

---------- Post added 2013-05-23 at 03:05 AM ----------

The "traitor" argument would work if Lor'themar didn't banish people who disagreed with Rommath's decision. Why would they then turn around and say "Oh wait, no, here, let me show you!"

I also find it odd that the abandonment argument is the actual one that is used. They abandoned them because they didn't come back to die to the Scourge when it largely still occupied the nation?

Yep, weak-hearted cowards, to the end. Their eventual termination is fully warranted.

[KrazyK923]

Cute, a strawman. You, as many individuals, simply block-quote and think that ends the argument. My counter is that I feel that the explanation given is weak and does not account for whether her addiction (the hunger) or its non-satiation are what her 'love' for her little half-breeds cure.

Come to me with canonical and sourced arguments next time. Thanks.

My counter is that I feel that the explanation given is weak and does not account for whether her addiction (the hunger) or its non-satiation are what her 'love' for her little half-breeds cure.

See above. Your argument has no backing in the actual lore.

Yep, weak-hearted cowards, to the end. Their eventual termination is fully warranted.

Yes, they are cowards for not marching to their deaths! Makes perfect sense!

[Fenixhart]

I'm with OP on this one, they want us to be impressed by the awesome power of the shadow-pan? not buying it. Maybe if they have ever demonstrated they are capable of of anything I would respect their threats.

Have you done any questing content like...ever?

They're pretty much everywhere, and aid you in pretty substantial ways.

[Redmage]

The "traitor" argument would work if Lor'themar didn't banish people who disagreed with Rommath's decision. Why would they then turn around and say "Oh wait, no, here, let me show you!"

I also find it odd that the abandonment argument is the actual one that is used. They abandoned them because they didn't come back to die to the Scourge when it largely still occupied the nation?

Banishing them was a mistake on the blood elves part, sure, but given how everything played out (kael'thas, outland) Lor'themar may have been able to admit that and welcome them back eventually. But by defecting to the alliance that betrayed the elves they ruined any hope of reunification. They have shown no loyalty to their homeland or their people, why would the blood elves ever trust them?

[KrazyK923]

They didn't "defect" to the Alliance. Most of the ones who didn't become Blood Elves were already in Stormwind. Just because King Anasterian was a baby and didn't want to uphold the old promise between his people and the Humans and thus just left after the Second War doesn't mean the High Elves en masse stopped being allies with the Humans. Why would the High Elves in Stormwind stay there, then?

[Matt0193]

So Terenas can't even get credit for not literally annihilating all of the Orcs out of petty revenge?

Nope, it must be some conspiracy!

It was actually Varian who put forward the idea, Terenas gave the deciding vote to put the Orcs in internment camps despite Genn Greymane, Anasterian Sunstrider and Daelin Proudmore's protests.