Why is Exclusive content a bad thing to some people?

[DeadmanWalking]

What are casuals to you, does time play any factor or is it anyone who doesnt raid? There are players that call themselves "casuals" that are not fine players who put more effort into the game getting more rewards. They want the same rewards for doing LFR. Than again maybe these posters are just trying to troll.

Same rewards? Go and get a full suit of raid gear and a full suit of LFR gear and watch recount to see the difference between LFR rewards and Normal/Heroic rewards. If you can't tell the difference between LFR rewards and Raid rewards then you can't be helped.

Regular ToES raid gear is 496, ToT LFR gear is 502. ToT LFR gear is only 6 ilevels higher than ToES regular gear. You have nothing to fear with Casuals stealing your 1337 gear.

[brunnor]

Then...maybe there's a reason?
I don't think that raiding is so unpopular because of LFR; but that LFR is so popular because more and more people just don't want to attend in "regular raids" anymore.
Times change.

People dont want to do more work for the same rewards. Ilvl matters only to hardcore raiders. Ilvl doesn't mean anything to LFR players as their ilvl is already well past what they need when they do it. The gear looks the same, the bosses are the same, the lore is the same. There is no need for most to do anything more.

"OMG Ra-den!" No... just no. If heroic raiders got 2-4 bosses per raid that were ours alone, then it would be fine. A single bosses every other instance, if we are lucky, isn't exactly what is needed/wanted.

There needs some be a separation. I'd prefer it be in content alone. I would even accept things like legendary being only in normal/heroic(this should be how it is anyway, I mean legendary is the last word I'd use to describe anything in LFR). Achievements only being from normal+, I mean the zone complete achievement. Mounts/pets not being able to ever drop in LFR. Different gear model, not just color, from raiding gear. Normal/heroic can just be recolors of each other but LFR is different. Reputation coming from normal+ only.

LFR has EVERYTHING that normal/heroic raiders have minus some ilvl which isn't even important if you aren't wanting to go forward in content.

[worsthitmanNa]

Imo, the main reason why back during Vanilla and BC WoW was gaining subs despite current end game raids being accessible to only 1% of players as opposed to WoW losing subs now when end game raids are open to all is that the game overall has been trivialized (some call it "dumbed down") to achieve inclusivity.

Basically, the raid bosses turned into pushovers, the world into teleportation points, raids into mindless zergs, and it seems 5man dungeons are on their way out. The awe and wonder are all removed to achieve inclusivity.

I don't believe sub losses are necessarily related to WoW's age. EVE, older than WoW at 10 years old, increased its' sub numbers. Obviously, it is not set in stone that a game must start losing subs when it turns 6.

They tried making the game harder with cata. That is when subs first dropped and unless you have actually done and cleared all of mist of pandaria content you shouldn't talk. Btw Eve online had 500,000 subs its really hard to get lower lol.

[fooliuscaesar13]

I don't have a problem with exclusive content and I certainly enjoy having to work for the things that I have.
Most people don't share that sentiment, however. Since "most people" pay the bills at Blizzard, you will never see a return to things like attunements, one difficulty level, LFR removed, etc. This isn't EQ/EQ2 or Final Fantasy or some other punishing, difficult MMO.
More players = more money = more of ... Everything. Cry all you want, but this "catering to casuals" or "welfare epics" or whatever else you bitch about is what keeps the bills paid at Blizzard.

[brunnor]

Same rewards? Go and get a full suit of raid gear and a full suit of LFR gear and watch recount to see the difference between LFR rewards and Normal/Heroic rewards. If you can't tell the difference between LFR rewards and Raid rewards then you can't be helped.

We could both be in the same gear and I'd still do more than some random LFR person because I am a better player than them. Does that mean it is unfair that I'm better? Should Blizzard make me play worse so they feel good about themselves?

Again, Ilvl and meters only matter to hardcore raiders. Trying to say that meters is what makes the difference in our "content" is dumb as hell. Gear ilvl does not matter at all. That is the ONLY thing we get over everyone else and it only matters to us, thus it isn't close to relevant in this argument.

[Aquamonkey]

They tried making the game harder with cata. That is when subs first dropped and unless you have actually done and cleared all of mist of pandaria content you shouldn't talk. Btw Eve online had 500,000 subs its really hard to get lower lol.

That's because the harder heroics they introduced in Cata was a bandaid that the entire system had been moved away from. In Vanilla/TBC when dungeons were "hard", they were considered their own tier of progression and the system was set up for it. Having stratification between tiers.

In the new system, stratification is between difficulties of the latest raid tier. Dungeons are set up to be point grinds for people to get into raids. Hard heroics is incompatible with the current progression system, so they added Challenge Mode to be outside the progression path.

[Orange Joe]

LFR has EVERYTHING that normal/heroic raiders have minus some ilvl which isn't even important if you aren't wanting to go forward in content.

Since when does lfr have mounts and acheivements?

[worsthitmanNa]

We could both be in the same gear and I'd still do more than some random LFR person because I am a better player than them. Does that mean it is unfair that I'm better? Should Blizzard make me play worse so they feel good about themselves?

Again, Ilvl and meters only matter to hardcore raiders. Trying to say that meters is what makes the difference in our "content" is dumb as hell. Gear ilvl does not matter at all. That is the ONLY thing we get over everyone else and it only matters to us, thus it isn't close to relevant in this argument.

Heroic raiders get:
mounts
extra achievements
titles
better gear
thunderforged gear
their legendary will have a high item level as well

Their are tons of reasons to be a hardcore raider.

[brunnor]

They tried making the game harder with cata. That is when subs first dropped and unless you have actually done and cleared all of mist of pandaria content you shouldn't talk. Btw Eve online had 500,000 subs its really hard to get lower lol.

They made things harder at the start of Cata and lost a fraction of what they've lost when they made it easier. A change in a game will always cause people to stop playing. What Blizzard needs to do is decide what causes the least amount of loss and judging by the tract record, the least loss is when things are hard.

[worsthitmanNa]

That's because the harder heroics they introduced in Cata was a bandaid that the entire system had been moved away from. In Vanilla/TBC when dungeons were "hard", they were considered their own tier of progression and the system was set up for it. Having stratification between tiers.

In the new system, stratification is between difficulties of the latest raid tier. Dungeons are set up to be point grinds for people to get into raids. Hard heroics is incompatible with the current progression system, so they added Challenge Mode to be outside the progression path.

Did you not hear people complaining about how hard healing was? and how hard raids were to actually finish in cataclysm?

[Grocalis]

That's because the harder heroics they introduced in Cata was a bandaid that the entire system had been moved away from. In Vanilla/TBC when dungeons were "hard", they were considered their own tier of progression and the system was set up for it. In Cata, the system was set up for dungeons to be point grinds for people to get into raids. Hard heroics is incompatible with the current system, so they added Challenge Mode to be outside the progression path.

Heroics have been about "Point Grinds" since BC.

Fact remains that most people don't like hard dungeons, as shown by the "Mechanar Syndrome". It's always been this way, and why once the flood gate was opened entirely in WOTLK, it was a determent to try and go back on the design of easier heroics. Thus a large sub loss.

[worsthitmanNa]

They made things harder at the start of Cata and lost a fraction of what they've lost when they made it easier. A change in a game will always cause people to stop playing. What Blizzard needs to do is decide what causes the least amount of loss and judging by the tract record, the least loss is when things are hard.

Actually adding things like Lfr slowed the sub lose and so did transmog as well those were both casual feature broseph.

[Orange Joe]

They made things harder at the start of Cata and lost a fraction of what they've lost when they made it easier. A change in a game will always cause people to stop playing. What Blizzard needs to do is decide what causes the least amount of loss and judging by the tract record, the least loss is when things are hard.

I want proof of that claim.

Wrath was easier than bc and subs went up.... you were saying?

[Deleted]

They made things harder at the start of Cata and lost a fraction of what they've lost when they made it easier. A change in a game will always cause people to stop playing. What Blizzard needs to do is decide what causes the least amount of loss and judging by the tract record, the least loss is when things are hard.

most people are casuals, so the changes have to positively impact them in order to keep them subbed.

[brunnor]

Heroic raiders get:
mounts
extra achievements
titles
better gear
thunderforged gear
their legendary will have a high item level as well

Their are tons of reasons to be a hardcore raider.

What mount do I get for being a heroic raider? None, I have to do dumb ass achievements to get those.

Who gives a crap about achievements? They don't gain you anything so who really cares.

A title that anyone can get in a couple months, really good reason to do things.

Better gear that is only there to allow us to do harder content. Gear itself isn't a rewards, it is a tool to get the real rewards, killing bosses.

TF gear... really? That is what you use? Something that has a horrible drop rate with random items that might drop for people who need them sometimes? Upgraded gear is better than TF gear anyway, so upgraded LFR gear is pretty much TF LFR gear.

The legendary you get too? Really for us raiders.

[Grocalis]

They made things harder at the start of Cata and lost a fraction of what they've lost when they made it easier. A change in a game will always cause people to stop playing. What Blizzard needs to do is decide what causes the least amount of loss and judging by the tract record, the least loss is when things are hard.

Did they now? 4.3 reduced the sub drop through easier heroics and LFR. The only reason we are losing subs now is because MoP is too time consuming.

[Orange Joe]

What mount do I get for being a heroic raider? None, I have to do dumb ass achievements to get those.

Who gives a crap about achievements? They don't gain you anything so who really cares.

A title that anyone can get in a couple months, really good reason to do things.

Better gear that is only there to allow us to do harder content. Gear itself isn't a rewards, it is a tool to get the real rewards, killing bosses.

TF gear... really? That is what you use? Something that has a horrible drop rate with random items that might drop for people who need them sometimes? Upgraded gear is better than TF gear anyway, so upgraded LFR gear is pretty much TF LFR gear.

The legendary you get too? Really for us raiders.

So you only care about cosmetic gear? You want to look different? Challenge modes anyone?

[Deleted]

I don't have a problem with having exclusive content, even if a percentage of wow players can't access it.
But if it was like having Arthas/Deathwing/Garrosh, the main villains of a given expansion, center figures of the lore, as a heroic-only encounters, I would be annoyed.

Of course, I would love to be able to reach and beat that kind of content, and I can't because of several reasons right now, but for me, that's like the carrot on a stick that keeps me going.

[DeadmanWalking]

We could both be in the same gear and I'd still do more than some random LFR person because I am a better player than them. Does that mean it is unfair that I'm better? Should Blizzard make me play worse so they feel good about themselves?

Again, Ilvl and meters only matter to hardcore raiders. Trying to say that meters is what makes the difference in our "content" is dumb as hell. Gear ilvl does not matter at all. That is the ONLY thing we get over everyone else and it only matters to us, thus it isn't close to relevant in this argument.

Nice job side stepping what I said except for the whole part where you fail to realise that I said for *YOU* to put on both sets and watch recount, so the sample is based on your skill alone and not your skill against someone worse than you. Oh My God! You mean if you are in similar gear and your better than them your numbers will be better!? I did not think of that! You've opened my eyes!!! The LIght! It burns!!! It Burns!!! GIVE ME THE PURPLES!!! THE PURPLES!!!

Yeah, you fail. Next!

[brunnor]

I want proof of that claim.

Wrath was easier than bc and subs went up.... you were saying?

Wrath gained 500k players over TBC, majority of them towards the beginning and the end(when China got Wrath in the first place). Ulduar was an instance worthy of gaining subs and the game did for it. It lost subs in ToC and ICC until China release hit then it spike up to the 12.whatever number they posted about.

Blizzards first quarter report of Cata was a 300k loss in subs. This is the number that everyone says happened cause content was too hard. I'm sure some of them were, but doubtful all 300k were. I'll even give you the full 300k due to hard content. Compare that to the 3 million we've lost when its easy. Even if only 11% of them is from easy content, which is a decently likely number since 11% is a rather small percent, the harder content gets the kick for better player retention.

The quarter reports are posted everywhere really. For high sub numbers you can use the tracker on Blizzards page about announcements. They announced each time they hit a high mark in TBC/Wrath and normally their "reason" for it being this way.