Warlock patch 5.4 discussion

[ZaneBusby]

Blue post confirms RPPM was broken.

Good to hear, all RPPM trinkets had really low uptime. Personally I just ended up not using them, but obviously for testing it's nice to have them fixed for at least a few bosses

Hmm... I doubt it'll make a HUGE difference, but I'm wondering whether or not this could mean that UVLS might actually be somewhat viable still for Demo. At least for the start of the tier. I know that it definitely won't be AS good as it currently is, due to the removal of Glyph of Everlasting Affliction, and the change to how long it procs after the pull, but if most of the people saying it won't be viable for demo anymore are basing that off their testing on the PTR, then maybe it might be somewhat better than people have been thinking... Unless everyone's actually just been basing it's viability off theorycrafting and maths, rather than PTR testing.

As a side note, assuming UVLS is still a terrible trinket in 5.4, how viable is Demo looking to be without it? Anywhere near as strong as it currently is? All throughout the later pages in this forum I see some top warlocks saying they're going to be rolling with Affliction for the majority of this tier, with possibly destro for the fights where it manages to find a niche, but haven't really heard much about the viability of Demo. My problem is that I've never been able to play affliction effectively (and I really mean it... NEVER, in my 5 years as a warlock, have I enjoyed playing affliction, nor been able to play it WELL in the situations I was forced to pick it up.) Ideally I'd like to be running Destro MS / Demo OS, or even Demo MS / Destro OS, but if Afflic is going to be at 5.0/5.1 levels (i.e. being the highest DPS spec in the game by a long, long shot), then I'll probably be forced to pick it up again by my guild. And I WON'T be a happy camper. I get that Destro is currently not viable for single target in Heroic SoO, but whats Demo looking like?

[Deleted]

patch drops in 2 weeks. i think there comes another little adjustment for destruction and a slightly nerf to affliction (maybe dot damage reduction because in multitarget were really OP...look at dark shamans were we have 2 targets to dot all the time). demo looks o.k. .

[Deleted]

Hmm... I doubt it'll make a HUGE difference, but I'm wondering whether or not this could mean that UVLS might actually be somewhat viable still for Demo. At least for the start of the tier. I know that it definitely won't be AS good as it currently is, due to the removal of Glyph of Everlasting Affliction, and the change to how long it procs after the pull, but if most of the people saying it won't be viable for demo anymore are basing that off their testing on the PTR, then maybe it might be somewhat better than people have been thinking... Unless everyone's actually just been basing it's viability off theorycrafting and maths, rather than PTR testing.

As a side note, assuming UVLS is still a terrible trinket in 5.4, how viable is Demo looking to be without it? Anywhere near as strong as it currently is? All throughout the later pages in this forum I see some top warlocks saying they're going to be rolling with Affliction for the majority of this tier, with possibly destro for the fights where it manages to find a niche, but haven't really heard much about the viability of Demo. My problem is that I've never been able to play affliction effectively (and I really mean it... NEVER, in my 5 years as a warlock, have I enjoyed playing affliction, nor been able to play it WELL in the situations I was forced to pick it up.) Ideally I'd like to be running Destro MS / Demo OS, or even Demo MS / Destro OS, but if Afflic is going to be at 5.0/5.1 levels (i.e. being the highest DPS spec in the game by a long, long shot), then I'll probably be forced to pick it up again by my guild. And I WON'T be a happy camper. I get that Destro is currently not viable for single target in Heroic SoO, but whats Demo looking like?

UVLS won't be all that bad. Glyph of EA was never a huge deal, it's a small DPS gain currently. The other trinkets got buffed in a way though (huge RPPM on Wushoolay/Breath).

Demo is looking fine, at least on the tests I have been on. It is quite close to Affliction. However, Affliction is definitely at the top and there are a few fights that favor multi-dotting so much that Affliction is godlike there (Protectors is a good example). I believe Demo is solidly in the top 5 if you look at overall specs from all classes though, so if you want to play it then your guild has nothing to complain about (provided it's not a hardcore top guild).

[a C e]

Did anybody test The new Fel Flame and how damage it does ?

[luckydevours]

You need at least 10% haste to make Incinerates (154% SP / 2 sec) DPET higher than Fel Flames (85% SP / 1 sec) at all times, since FF has a 1 second GCD as Destro and doesn't scale with haste afaik. So this shouldn't be a problem at this moment in the expansion.

[Deleted]

Did anybody test The new Fel Flame and how damage it does ?

I did a target dummy test earlier today with just DI & CoE, using Incinerate only with Backdraft and Fel flame otherwise.
On around 150M damage done (yeah I really like playing Destro ), Fel flames did 64k damage on average, while Incinerate did 121k.

On other "news" :
- RoF still yields 0.25 emberbit per tick, on 1/2/3/4 targets, I guess it's safe to assume the number of targets doesn't change anything.
- The RPPM fix is nice, I can sync almost all my Chaos bolts with either Wushoo or Breath or even both

[Saferis]

With this new update for the RPPM mechanics, how does UVLS fit in to our trinket BiS for demo in 5.4?

Let's say I had a fully upgraded normal UVLS, with a fair amount of haste; is it still viable until heroics?

If I had a H TF UVLS 2/2 upgraded, would it be viable throughout heroics as well?

The biggest problem is that glyph of EA is no longer existing, so inevitably we won't have long enough dooms to maintain 100% crit uptime, but the extra imps are still great.

[Smoothmeduso]

I did a target dummy test earlier today with just DI & CoE, using Incinerate only with Backdraft and Fel flame otherwise.
On around 150M damage done (yeah I really like playing Destro ), Fel flames did 64k damage on average, while Incinerate did 121k.

On other "news" :
- RoF still yields 0.25 emberbit per tick, on 1/2/3/4 targets, I guess it's safe to assume the number of targets doesn't change anything.
- The RPPM fix is nice, I can sync almost all my Chaos bolts with either Wushoo or Breath or even both

Are you saying that 2 Fel flames are only slightly better than incinerate over the course of 19.1 seconds? If so this also concludes that incinerate is better than fel flame in a haste/mastery build.

Below I plugged in your numbers to my heavy crit/mastery build

64kx19secs=1,216,000(fel flame 1 sec) vs 121kx10 cast= 1,210,000 (1.91 second incinerates that are not under backdraft: disclaimer the cast timez for incinerate are based on the normal bis gear list that i am making for destruction based on a heavy crit/mastery build with the current haste numbers being 2412 without 5% haste buff)

Below is my crit/mastery Normal BIS Gear For Destruction

Hood of swirling Senses- Helm
Hellscream's war staff- Weapon
Gloves of the Horned Nightmare- Gloves
Leggings of the Horned Nightmare- Pants
Robes of the Horned Nightmare- Chest
Mantle of the Horned Nightmare-Shoulders
petrified pennyroyal- Ring
untainted Guardian's Chain- Neck
scalebane bracers- bracers
toxic Tornado Treads- Feet
Miasmic Skullbelt- waist
Iyyokuk's Hereditary Seal- Ring
Purified Bindings of Immerseus- trinket
black blood-trinket

My Theory Crafting

I personally believe crit/mastery will be the way to go for destruction in the upcoming patch. The reason I believe this is generating embers are our main priority for destruction and based off our 2 set bonus and 4 set bonus, we are able to generate enough embers while dealing with the nerf to rain of fire with a heavy crit build. Having 30%-35% critical strike self buff is where one should try to reach in order for maximum performance if not more. I personally have found Grim: Sacrifice as a better dps/damage talent because of the 15% chaosbolt dot that ticks 3 times, add the 15% and scaling buff that blizzard announced to chaosbolt, you would get a stronger chaosbolt(obviously) but would also gain a very capable dot, be it single target or multi target using bane of havoc. Not to mention 15% buff to incinerate,fel flame,conflagrate, and shadowburn would actually scale for considerable amounts with the crit and mastery build. This patch has a lot of gear with mastery and crit. With that being said some chaosbolts will reach over 1 million and some to even 2 million. 1m CB=150k dot= 3 50k ticks 2m CB= 300k= 3 100k ticks a second. This allows for a sustained dps increase.

Thanks for taking the time to read this if you have any questions or see anything wrong with what I am stating, feel free to point it out because I am still testing this theory and still having increasing results for single target fights.

[Evatar]

You need at least 10% haste to make Incinerates (154% SP / 2 sec) DPET higher than Fel Flames (85% SP / 1 sec) at all times, since FF has a 1 second GCD as Destro and doesn't scale with haste afaik. So this shouldn't be a problem at this moment in the expansion.

You are ignoring the fact the Fel Flame nearly doubles your ember gen over Inci. Also, correct me if Im wrong, but isnt destro GCD cap .5 sec (from a 1 sec base)? That would mean Fel Flame would also receive a small amount benefit from haste too, the buff that really made Fel Flame a viable replacement for Inci in 5.4 is they cut the mana cost in nearly half.

Thanks for taking the time to read this if you have any questions or see anything wrong with what I am stating, feel free to point it out because I am still testing this theory and still having increasing results for single target fights.

If going for the 4-set, you should use off set shoulders with Crit/Mastery of the 2nd boss, and use tier legs. Also the multistrike trinket I think would be more atractive than black-blood for destro, but thats debatable.

[Smoothmeduso]

You are ignoring the fact the Fel Flame nearly doubles your ember gen over Inci. Also, correct me if Im wrong, but isnt destro GCD cap .5 sec (from a 1 sec base)? That would mean Fel Flame would also receive a small amount benefit from haste too, the buff that really made Fel Flame a viable replacement for Inci in 5.4 is they cut the mana cost in nearly half.

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. The reason I did not factor in the 1 sec gcd cap is because of latency issues that many players face. With that being said if one was simply spamming fel flame and accidentally used an extra one could actually waste some ember generation resources(depending upon the rotation that one uses. I am not saying that you are incorrect I am just trying to cater to all.

If going for the 4-set, you should use off set shoulders with Crit/Mastery of the 2nd boss, and use tier legs. Also the multistrike trinket I think would be more atractive than black-blood for destro, but thats debatable.

You have a point there, the shoulders will indeed give more critical than the set bonus. Thanks for the insight on that. The trinket I selected fits because when reforged gives 1.3% crit and in the spec I am trying to maximize the crits of all spells overall. Though I understand that 14% chance of 33% damage is ideal, I fear it is subject to rng. For an example it procs on a none critical immolate the damage is relatively small while the base 1.3% crit scales over all critical strikes. I can also understand why you state that it is debatable because Critical strikes are based upon rng as well. The 2 set and 4 set allows for less rng.

[Deleted]

Also, correct me if Im wrong, but isnt destro GCD cap .5 sec (from a 1 sec base)?

No, the GCD cap is 1 sec for Destro too, that's why we hit it so easily on Incinerate with the various buff (backdraft, meta, bloodlust...) & gear haste.

[Evatar]

No, the GCD cap is 1 sec for Destro too, that's why we hit it so easily on Incinerate with the various buff (backdraft, meta, bloodlust...) & gear haste.

Well this changes things a bit, though its possible to almost completely avoid haste on gear next tier (you could do it 100% if you dont want 4p actually, but don't think it outweights it). And the double ember regen should really outweight a small DEPT advantage on Inci (which wont even be there if you gear out of haste entirely), though I would suspect it becomes better to Inci, with any haste proc up (lust, meta & backdraft), testing pending. The buff to Fel Flame mana cost (almost cut in half) is what really makes using it viable now, on live we oom badly.

[Sinistrall]

Just ran a 10 minute Dummy Test with
1)4pc T16
2)Black Blood and Bindings non-upgraded for trinkets
3)Legendary Meta
4)Non-Legendary 608 ilvl Cloak
5)Supremacy Imp
6)AD 90 Talent
7)Reforged Mastery > Crit > Haste - with mastery gemming

Using a more Fel Flame oriented rotation where Incinerate (under 1.0s cast) > Fel Flame > Incinerate, I also prioritized trying to get 1-2 conflags for Ember Master (4pc) and 2 other spells in (hasted incinerate or 2 fel flames) or at least a higher crit Immolate. If I was near cap I used Chaosbolt on that proc along with trying to time it with int procs, though really the purpose of this test was to see ember generation.

Over the 10 minutes I was able to cast 58 Chaos Bolts.

In the standard rotation over 10 minutes while still trying to maximize ember generation

I was able to cast 51 Chaosbolts, based purely off of Skada it was only a difference of 6k dps though I'm sure the rotations could have been better managed though I made minimal mistakes in the rotation.

I have a suspicion that the Burning Meta will be more useful to the Fel Flame rotation than the Legendary Meta as most of the procs were during backdraft already or filled with fel flame.

Just posting for Ember Generation in my short test.

[Smoothmeduso]

Just ran a 10 minute Dummy Test with
1)4pc T16
2)Black Blood and Bindings non-upgraded for trinkets
3)Legendary Meta
4)Non-Legendary 608 ilvl Cloak
5)Supremacy Imp
6)AD 90 Talent
7)Reforged Mastery > Crit > Haste - with mastery gemming

Using a more Fel Flame oriented rotation where Incinerate (under 1.0s cast) > Fel Flame > Incinerate, I also prioritized trying to get 1-2 conflags for Ember Master (4pc) and 2 other spells in (hasted incinerate or 2 fel flames) or at least a higher crit Immolate. If I was near cap I used Chaosbolt on that proc along with trying to time it with int procs, though really the purpose of this test was to see ember generation.

Over the 10 minutes I was able to cast 58 Chaos Bolts.

In the standard rotation over 10 minutes while still trying to maximize ember generation

I was able to cast 51 Chaosbolts, based purely off of Skada it was only a difference of 6k dps though I'm sure the rotations could have been better managed though I made minimal mistakes in the rotation.

I have a suspicion that the Burning Meta will be more useful to the Fel Flame rotation than the Legendary Meta as most of the procs were during backdraft already or filled with fel flame.

Just posting for Ember Generation in my short test.

Earlier in this thread I stated something similar along the lines of 6k dps difference.
Would you mind testing grim:sacrifice with this test? I have been testing for maximum dps and so far grim: sac has given me that.

[Sinistrall]

I started out with Sup just to easier track the difference in Chaos Bolt casts but ya I could go for a test on maxing damage.

[Scathbais]

No, the GCD cap is 1 sec for Destro too, that's why we hit it so easily on Incinerate with the various buff (backdraft, meta, bloodlust...) & gear haste.

Hey Zum, what stats are you prioritizing on ptr? crit>mastery>haste?

Doesn't look good for easy reforge/gemming for a demo or affliction offspec.
What are others thinking as a good offspec for destro?

[Xorn]

You are ignoring the fact the Fel Flame nearly doubles your ember gen over Inci. Also, correct me if Im wrong, but isnt destro GCD cap .5 sec (from a 1 sec base)? That would mean Fel Flame would also receive a small amount benefit from haste too, the buff that really made Fel Flame a viable replacement for Inci in 5.4 is they cut the mana cost in nearly half.

The important part is in bold. That's why FF wins out over Incinerate a lot. Only when Incinerate is GCD capped can it match the ember generation of Fel Flame, and so with such a small gap in damage it could really go either way.

[Werst]

Tried a couple minutes of destro w' FF filler and I felt like a petless hunter. I feel like if we start using FF more than as a "oh no I have to move" spell its going to get nerfed but somehow they will forget to put the dot renewal component back on it lol. Who knows, maybe that is what blizz internal testers are doing and that makes destro "fine" but I kind of doubt it.

For normal modes I'm praying for a wush this week which a HTF would easily last through normals. For heroics BBoY is out just by dint of who drops it so KTT and either amp or cleave trinket (situationally ofc) would be my picks for destro.

[Devious009]

I think someone posted about the 4pc proc for Demonology that its using up the charges and demonic fury ? not sure if thats the case or I read it wrong but after testing the 4pc for Demo on PTR myself the proc from the 4pc wasnt using up any HoG / CW charges nor any demonic fury for the procs. Is it intended that way or was it bugged before and now they got it fixed ? Is it still a bad 4pc bonus for Demo ?

Its basiclly free damage which is welcome unless the damage isnt that significant to give up better itemization from off pieces.

[Hellfury]

I think someone posted about the 4pc proc for Demonology that its using up the charges and demonic fury ? not sure if thats the case or I read it wrong but after testing the 4pc for Demo on PTR myself the proc from the 4pc wasnt using up any HoG / CW charges nor any demonic fury for the procs. Is it intended that way or was it bugged before and now they got it fixed ? Is it still a bad 4pc bonus for Demo ?

Its basiclly free damage which is welcome unless the damage isnt that significant to give up better itemization from off pieces.

It was bugged its fixed now so its "free" damage as set bonus should be.

My view on 4set bonus is that its pretty OK, it adds another layer to HoG managment with weaving since you can get a double stack only using 1 and even the CWs in meta mean more Molten cores and that translates in more soulfires and more 2set buff uptime.

The probleam with 4set its that it has alot of crit rate, and thats not good on a UVLS like demo setup, other reason is that set pieces can't be HC Warforged.

I have absolute certainty 4set will be absolutely worth it on cleave fights like Dark Shamans, but the jury is still out on single target fights and also as one gets more access to HC Warforged offset pieces.

Other thing that have be considered is that 4set isnt good at all for Affliction, so if one is planing to play alot of affliction on some other bosses, and let me tell you some bosses are really aff frendly, one has to weigh that.