[5.4] Protection Warrior

[Deleted]

I would have said go with equal stat values as you won't really be able to have the same level of dodge as parry due to STR. Also Parry being higher than dodge is what we want due to hold the line and the STR giving insane parry takes care of this for us anyway ^^

[Deleted]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/101...ust_2-8_2_2013
https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...73711105376256

Specifically if #5 goes live, from that tweet, but all of the other changes are major. All avoidable ground mechanics will no longer give vengeance, AOE tanking as been gutted, and just a flat nerf on top of the rest.

Wish they had given some numbers on #3, just as they did on #1. There is not too much to go with it (although is worrisome, truth be told, because breaking the connection between lots of adds and Sbar scaling... Do not like. Grand Empress situations can't be handled for long without the appropiate vengeance fueling Sbar)


At least https://mobile.twitter.com/Ghostcraw...9371682816?p=v gives some hope.

[Deleted]

Plus side: point 5 (30/50%) cap isn't implemented just yet. For now it's only an idea that they've thrown at us but mentioned nowhere in the actual ptr notes. You can see that in ie Warriorsarri's general HC test video ( http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post21951552 ), he's way beyond 300k (849k hp = 254k vengeance cap but he's at 576k before he dies). And they've only thought about that because some people tend to abuse it (like standing in Horridons head swipe or abusing /sit for insane absorb sacred shields) and that's covered with the current ptr push (no rage err vengeance from standing in fire).

Looks like the newest build has the tank meta reducing all damage now, not just physical. 2.57 RPM right now, crazy uptime.

With 20% all damage reduction it's far more appealing for sure. Problem remains: it's unreliable, you can't plan around it. The dps meta still offers 5-10% more damage (scaling perfectly with our vengeance or did i miss something? They only mentioned haste scaling, didn't they?) so if we're not in the risk of dying more dps is problably still more benefical. Don't forget that we can't really do something different because of the meta, we still want to hit our AM and not spend our rage on non-ultimatum hs/cleave so there's no gain/altering in our playstyle.

Why are you gemming crit>Parry/dodge?

Don't forget that you'll only have Riposte buff while you actual tanking something, rather similar to vengeance. 20ish gems are 10% crit permanent, that's no small gain. On the other hand it's also 5-7% avoid post dr which helps with rage and general survival... no easy decision for min/maxing

Anyone have any feelings about balancing Parry and Dodge or going full Parry. Since Riposte is based on rating we wont lose any crit by going full parry but we will lose a bit of avoidance while gaining rage.

We gain rage from that? Why? I'd expect to get a lot of damage out of that from the hold the line glyph, but rage? Revenge proccs on all avoidance or am i missing here something? And for the actual numbers: imagine you'll have what.. 12k parry+dodge each before gemming from gear & reforges. That's 45% avoid post-DR, if we add 6k parry rating from gems we're at 51% avoid post-DR, if we add 3k dodge and 3k parry from gems we'd still be at 51% avoid post-DR, but it's slightly less. Why? Dodge rating becomes worthless faster so it's actually better to stack parry for both defense and offense (via that mentioned glyph). My current ideal parry:dodge ratio pre-DR is 3.56309 according to Thecks sheet, so i'd want 18k parry and 10k dodge over 14/14 any day.

[Gliff]

I would have said go with equal stat values as you won't really be able to have the same level of dodge as parry due to STR. Also Parry being higher than dodge is what we want due to hold the line and the STR giving insane parry takes care of this for us anyway ^^

I have the ratings pretty even on PTR. Parry is obviously higher % wise.

Ill go full Parry and see how much I lose to DR compared to keeping them even.

With 20% all damage reduction it's far more appealing for sure. Problem remains: it's unreliable, you can't plan around it. The dps meta still offers 5-10% more damage (scaling perfectly with our vengeance or did i miss something? They only mentioned haste scaling, didn't they?) so if we're not in the risk of dying more dps is problably still more benefical. Don't forget that we can't really do something different because of the meta, we still want to hit our AM and not spend our rage on non-ultimatum hs/cleave so there's no gain/altering in our playstyle.

They are increasing the proc chance and making it all damage. I see it being good enough to take for me in a Heroic 25 man situation.

Don't forget that you'll only have Riposte buff while you actual tanking something, rather similar to vengeance. 20ish gems are 10% crit permanent, that's no small gain. On the other hand it's also 5-7% avoid post dr which helps with rage and general survival... no easy decision for min/maxing

Keeping riposte up though intervene or taunting for 1 hit should not be hard.

We gain rage from that? Why? I'd expect to get a lot of damage out of that from the hold the line glyph, but rage? Revenge proccs on all avoidance or am i missing here something? And for the actual numbers: imagine you'll have what.. 12k parry+dodge each before gemming from gear & reforges. That's 45% avoid post-DR, if we add 6k parry rating from gems we're at 51% avoid post-DR, if we add 3k dodge and 3k parry from gems we'd still be at 51% avoid post-DR, but it's slightly less. Why? Dodge rating becomes worthless faster so it's actually better to stack parry for both defense and offense (via that mentioned glyph). My current ideal parry:dodge ratio pre-DR is 3.56309 according to Thecks sheet, so i'd want 18k parry and 10k dodge over 14/14 any day.

Miss typed. I meant damage.

Can you link that spread sheet?

[Deleted]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...ESkVXb0E#gid=0

Instructions: To edit the spreadsheet, go to the file menu and choose "Make a Copy" to create your own Google Docs copy of the spreadsheet. Alternatively, you can choose File->Download As and save it in excel (xls) or OpenOffice (ods) formats. Once you have your local copy, edit the green boxes to put in your unbuffed stats, and toggle on or off the raid buffs you want to consider. The spreadsheet uses simple formulas, so it will automatically update as you change your stats.

edit: Any thoughts on the t15 4p? http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=99415 Instead of shieldwall it's now on demo shout, increasing our rage gain for 10 seconds after it wears off. Combined with readiness trinket this could cover a decent amount of time, potentially netting superior damage reduction for 20 out of 50 seconds (or 40%) if we're willing to spam our minor cooldown away. Buff = reckless defense ( http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=144500 )

Ps: current readiness is still not updated for the dps talents (Tier 4/6) , currently it's like that http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=145992#modifies (tank = leap, shieldwall, demo shout, mocking banner, last stand, reck). For comparison: http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=145991 (dps)
PPs: paladins get talented 25s on divine protection with the trinket, covering 20 out of 25 seconds with their 2p http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=99368 *sting*

[Gliff]

Much better then it was before but I am still not giddy with anticipation. I feel it is, once again, better for 10 man tanks then 25 man. Not useless but I still may not be taking the tier before my DPS/Healers.

- - - Updated - - -

Do paladins gain more from Parry like we do? If they don't then that spreadsheet isn't very valid.

[Deleted]

While it's not 100% matching, the numbers were correct to the decimals while toying around with gems & gear which is totally enough for me for some general assumptions.

It's based on this http://www.sacredduty.net/2012/07/06...in-mop-part-3/ with the relevant part being that

I said this in the last post, but it bears repeating: while I have only tested this with a paladin, it’s a reasonable assumption that these formulas will work for warriors and DKs.

+ it's very own blog entry over there http://www.sacredduty.net/2012/08/31...spreadsheet-2/

[Zaritte]

Do we know the formula for how much rage we generate from the 4pc. All I have seen is "generate rage from taking damage after shout falls off."

[Gliff]

Do we know the formula for how much rage we generate from the 4pc. All I have seen is "generate rage from taking damage after shout falls off."

I'm pretty sure it is broken on PTR.

[Gliff]

Did anyone test out the vengeance DR on multiple targets yet?

[Deleted]

Bah, coming back after a 1.5 months long vecation today without internet all these changes makes me going maaad. Decided to reroll monk for 5.4 after 8 years as warrior, but maybe blizzard finally heard our praise and gives us some love after all! How does the dmg feel on the Ptr? Will we be in line with other tanks or are we still far behind? Playing your char on the edge ranking top 10 on WoL but still being rolled over by pretty much every single decent playing monk or paladin out there, wont be fun for another tier again! Decisions sucks!

[Deleted]

@Gliff
That's no easy thing to test, from a feeling it's 50%ish slower ramp up time but finding a decent test environment is rather difficult. Any suggestions? I lined up 6 elite dinomancer on the isle of giants and it took them a while on ptr to get to max attackpower (25k ~) but even with a stopwatch it doesn't feel that scientific at all

@Elvadriendra
We're still behind on the damage dealt part and it will get back to a worse state as soon as monks/druid/dk manage to grab a heroic thunder- err warforged weapon (we can't test those on the ptr) but it's not nearly as bad as on live. Do you play 10M or 25M? For 10M i'd look at item distribution (how many plate and agility dps do you have?) and your token situation carefully when you want to reroll. But keep in mind that they only implemented new mechanics (like Riposte - giving us crit from avoidance while tanking) and haven't done anything about the ability numbers itself at all. So maybe we'll get the HR glyph baked into regular shield slam, 10% higher damage across all our abilities or Kegsmash getting reduced by 33% - we can't tell just yet. If you're not only a top 10 WoL contender but also play in a "real-hardcore-progression-guild" (tm) i'd prepare a second tank just in case*, else i'd stay with the warrior and enjoy your time, not looking left and right.

* ie just have a look at Garrosh fight from the recent frontpage entry, if the tank dps differences remains those will only get multiplied with some mechanics.

[Deleted]

So instead of giving us the exact same 4set but worded differently, i thought of this 4set last night:

Reduces cooldown on ER and IV by 50%(and removing rage cost from IV!!).

What do you guys think ?

[Deleted]

Kinda stepped down from hard core raiding when wotlk came out, now i play in a causal 10m guild(13/13hc) raiding 2-3 times a week with some friends, tho we try to keep a decent progress with the few hours we have (6-9h a week, killed Lei shen Heroic june 25th so we aint in the top but neither in the bottom ), and since i´ve been playing for so long its in my bones to competitive, which warriors havent been for this tier. When it comes to tokens and gear distribution my class dosent mather, both works with the setup about as good as the other.

Whats your impressions defensive wise on the PTR? Even tho Warriors worked this tier, i personally Main tanked thro the whole tier, with very few people solo tanking some bosses during progression (Durumu and Qon etc) as warrior before me, and even tho it worked, things would have gone smoother with me playing another tank class, since atleast i got the impression that even if played right, warriors are behind in squishiness as well. Even tho i love the way Shield block and shield barrier works now a days, as well as our other defensives.

Guess i´ll have to prepare the monk for the worst, but hold my thumbs for prot warriors being amazing when it goes live!

[Deleted]

I only killed Lei Shen a couple of IDs before that to give you a better picture of my situation. Our team raids a couple more hours a week because we're lacking on the proper execution side and need the additional time learning, though. I refused to solo tank Qon or Durumu because it didn't make any sense, at all. I'd deal 150-200k dps on the latter while a brewmaster would sit at 100k+ of that with considerable larger burst to the ice walls. And bringing a warrior for Qon over a Brewmaster was downright retarded with stagger working on Impale, basically halving the damage during the later (crucial) stages of the fight. In addition we lost our option to field a hand of protection of any kind shortly thereafter so we started to duo tank anything anyway. To the day i still don't mind being the waterboy, just taking excessive stacks of x and y and do my best while intervening for vengeance. We do well in this regard, all tanks deal somewhat pathetic damage compared to any vengeance fed counterpart but we've a bunch of tools to make some things easier to handle and those will work without additional 1-200k attackpower

For the squishiness: it's really hard to tell, from my experience we do just fine but i regulary excel on managing my cooldowns (no bragging! :P) and as we all know if we f*ck up on this regard we've almost no chance of a comeback on our own (last stand + healthstone every once in a while) compared to ie a brewmaster hitting an expel harm/chi wave/healing sphere combo or a paladin using his 5 stacks word of glory (equivalent to a lay on hand but without the debuff or cooldown). But as Gliff already pointed out a few posts back tank heal & selfheal is somewhat through the roof this expansion and with our new 2p bonus we'll become a part of this club as well.

@santa666
ER heal is at 20/20 while enraged on the ptr, that's already really good for an emergency button off the gcd. 30 seconds would be to short, similar to 15 seconds being to short for IV imho. Those buttons would become integral components of our tanking toolkit instead of being a cover up button we can hit every once in a while and we'd need to be designed around them. Plus i like the option to just use offpieces because we always lack protector token and while having a strong 2 piece is good having a strong(er) 4 piece somewhat limits our gearchoices (+increases the amount of shards from all the plate avoidace stuff nobody would ever pick up).

[Deleted]

@santa666
ER heal is at 20/20 while enraged on the ptr, that's already really good for an emergency button off the gcd. 30 seconds would be to short, similar to 15 seconds being to short for IV imho. Those buttons would become integral components of our tanking toolkit instead of being a cover up button we can hit every once in a while and we'd need to be designed around them. Plus i like the option to just use offpieces because we always lack protector token and while having a strong 2 piece is good having a strong(er) 4 piece somewhat limits our gearchoices (+increases the amount of shards from all the plate avoidace stuff nobody would ever pick up).

Short cd compared to what ? Expel harm ? Wog ? :P
We'll get some great healing in our 2set, but we'll also lose VR procs in the proccess.
While tank healing is a debatable topic, i see no issue with them becoming an added component in our toolkit, i actually Want that, something i can depend on and make us less healer dependant.

I'm reverse, we're flooded with protector tokens, soon got full heroic offspec, either way, i dont see that as a viable excuse to make our 4p shit and identical for 2 tiers...

[Deleted]

Fair enough, but i still would prefer not having overpowered or just strong items/set boni but a well rounded class.

Short cd compared to what ? Expel harm ? Wog ? :P

Fun side note: A friend toyed around with Eternal Flame on the ptr due to Sacred Shield getting reduced by approximately 30%. SS absorbed 100k every 4 seconds on live while EF ticks for over 150k every 2 seconds on the ptr with a similar amount of vengeance. Downside: you sacrifice all your BoG stacks and it's heal not absorb, but currently is really strong and will probably get reduced to a reasonable level for prot.

[Deleted]

Fair enough, but i still would prefer not having overpowered or just strong items/set boni but a well rounded class.

I totally agree, but if tank healing is here to stay, i want them to start experimenting with warriors.
Either a whole new talent, making current 2set baseline, reduction on ER, buff to IV, testing my idea for 4set, whatever really.

is really strong and will probably get reduced to a reasonable level for prot.

Blizz seems to want protadin's OP by design, i'm not to sure /shrug.

[Gliff]

Fair enough, but i still would prefer not having overpowered or just strong items/set boni but a well rounded class.


Fun side note: A friend toyed around with Eternal Flame on the ptr due to Sacred Shield getting reduced by approximately 30%. SS absorbed 100k every 4 seconds on live while EF ticks for over 150k every 2 seconds on the ptr with a similar amount of vengeance. Downside: you sacrifice all your BoG stacks and it's heal not absorb, but currently is really strong and will probably get reduced to a reasonable level for prot.

I would prefer the absorb over the better heal. Also losing those BoG stacks would suck. I basically use WoG as a Lay on Hands and an "ohshit" button.

Get that Paladin talk out of here!!!!

Call me old school but I would prefer they left the healing to the healers. I would prefer we had no self healing.

[Deleted]

Call me old school but I would prefer they left the healing to the healers. I would prefer we had no self healing.

I'm with Gliff, but I'd honestly also say leave DPS to the DPSers.... but that ship is looooooooong gone.

(But yes, if we're expected to do deeps, then we should all be on the same playing field naturally).