Goodbye Mannoroth's Fury. It was a real pleasure.

[Killem]

public test realm.

But without a massive uproar, they won't even recognize how bad those changes are.

[Heliolord]

public test realm.

We don't do anything, this goes to live. Besides, screaming about nerfs in the PTR works for mages.

[pitakos]

I don't expect it, but they should revert the nerfs to the radius of SoC, RoF, FnB and Hellfire, if they are realy nerfing MF.

Most propably they wont. Thats the case everytime. They try to nerf something , they do a nerf that is not of great importance, or at least acceptable (giving a compensation). Ppl continue to cry about it, and 3 months after they overnerf it without compensating or reverting old nerfs. If these go live, and they wont add a small "hotfix patch" that they always do, you will have to wait 2-3 months of endless threads to propably get half the ammount of the original status.

To give you a simple example, check their previous tweaks on Chaos Wave, Doom, Demon form Melee Attack and Shadowflame. Were they were nerfing the one then buffing the other for compensation, and afterwards removing the buff forgeting about the previous nerf.

[Uzkin]

It is completely unneeded to nerf MF.

No, it's not. It is much more important to have three equal talents to choose from than it is to have a single useful, fun talent. Since AV was already crap and KJC gets nerfed to the ground, it became necessary to break MF too. Then all the talents are pretty much equal, and Blizzard is happy.

[Drikkink]

No, it's not. It is much more important to have three equal talents to choose from than it is to have a single useful, fun talent. Since AV was already crap and KJC gets nerfed to the ground, it become necessary to break MF too. Now all the talents are pretty much equal, and Blizzard is happy.

That. Logic.

One talent is awful? Let's make 'em ALL awful!

[Surfd]

. The character models need a massive overhaul. We need to get away from the cartoonish looks with characters having fingers the size of bananas.

No. Up the polygon count if you want. Up the textures. Improve the models with better animations etc. But don't try to screw with the Artistic style the game has maintained for the last 8 years. WoW (and the warcraft games in general) have always had a very distinctive Artistic Style. If ham-handed Orcs bother you, go play something else. I (and many others) would probably quit if they tried to make WoW look different Stylistically.

A good example of the reverse game development is the talent system. Wouldn't it be more logical if, as the game got bigger, you'd get more talents? No, instead we went from 71 talent points to only 6. I looked forward to spending that talent point each level. I loved the hybrid builds. Prevent Cookie Cutter builds? Failed, they still exist and they will never go away. Want them to go away? Actually make the talents in the same tier equal.

Missed the point again. Look at most of the games coming out now. The focus is on smaller talent trees (or talent tree like system), and less button bloat. Blizzard's current direction with talent "trees" is WAY better then the old 71pt bloat we had before, where roughly 50 of those points were useless filler talents that had absolutely no impact on how my character played other then "you hit a bit harder".

And yes, cookie cutter builds will always exist, but at least the new system gives you quite nice flexability in what you can pick for most tiers, and allows you to easily tweak a talent here or there to adjust on the fly / encounter by encounter.

[Jessicka]

On current content, not every one is full AOE but still affected:

Whoreidon - cleaving/aoe on everything
Council - Hog cleave + immo aura on all bosses
Tortos - turtles
Megaera - dispersed adds HoG cleave + immo aura
Durumu - depends how long the walls are up, but also on the adds from dispelling

Its also a pretty big nerf to Destro ember generation on more than one constant target if they aren't pretty close.

I just realised how accustomed to it I was. :3

[Rife]

I see people mentioning that they didn't even need KJC in it's current form and that they don't mind losing it.

All I can think is: how exactly do you do a fight like council? or durumu? or primordius? or tortos? or ji'kun?

Do the people saying that only PvP? Or do they just sit out on most of the fights in ToT?

[Mazda]

I see people mentioning that they didn't even need KJC in it's current form and that they don't mind losing it.

All I can think is: how exactly do you do a fight like council? or durumu? or primordius? or tortos? or ji'kun?

Do the people saying that only PvP? Or do they just sit out on most of the fights in ToT?

Not that I disagree with you about KJC being awesome, but MF is better on 4 of the 5 fights you mentioned.

[Brusalk]

I see people mentioning that they didn't even need KJC in it's current form and that they don't mind losing it.

All I can think is: how exactly do you do a fight like council? or durumu? or primordius? or tortos? or ji'kun?

Do the people saying that only PvP? Or do they just sit out on most of the fights in ToT?

I use MF on Durumu, Primoridus and Tortos as Destro. I'm demo on Council (for obvious reasons) which is one of the few fights I actually use MF more often than KjC now that I think about it.

Jinrokh: KjC
Horridon: MF
Council: KjC
Tortos: MF
Megaera: MF
JiKun: KjC
Durumu: MF
Primordius: MF
Animus: MF
Iron Qon: KjC
Twins: KjC
Lei-Shen: MF
Ra-den: AV



I strongly think people overestimate the value of KjC for Destro/Demo.

Now, Affliction is completely crippled without it.

[Aschark]

The fact that all of our level 90 talents are going to be utterly useless with the exception of Mannoroth's Fury every other add phase is pathetic.

Demonology is just going to get farther ahead of the pack, basically.

Edit: To reply to the list Brusalk made above me, as Demonology I play MF for every fight except Jin'rokh. I play Destruction for Primo (obvious reasons) with MF as well. KJC is really only crucial to affliction, it's going to be dead in the water without it.

[Nirvaana]

public test realm.

You must be new ...

[Deleted]

lets all head to the dps forum on battlenet, they said they dont read class forums any way.

[Mazda]

I use MF on Durumu, Primoridus and Tortos as Destro. I'm demo on Council (for obvious reasons) which is one of the few fights I actually use MF more often than KjC now that I think about it.

Jinrokh: KjC
Horridon: MF
Council: KjC
Tortos: MF
Megaera: MF
JiKun: KjC
Durumu: MF
Primordius: MF
Animus: MF
Iron Qon: KjC
Twins: KjC
Lei-Shen: MF
Ra-den: AV



I strongly think people overestimate the value of KjC for Destro/Demo.

Now, Affliction is completely crippled without it.

I literally just made this exact post on the official forums.

[Lachez]

The fact that all of our level 90 talents are going to be utterly useless with the exception of Mannoroth's Fury every other add phase is pathetic.

Agreed. They're abilities that are better off baseline than as CDs. FFS If you want to balance all three of them, make AV actually useful rather than making the other two useless...

[Huuga]

I am so IMMENSELY HAPPY with the warlock nerfs! Like you guys had OP last tier talents in the first place its just something which should've been done LONG ago than now..don't attack me, BUT BOTH THE MF nerf , the KIC nerf were well-justified!

Everyone is welcome to give their opinions, but please watch how you word it. There are plenty of warlocks that take posts as this one as rather problematic.

[Zwen]

I'm still in shock over the announced changes. I love KjC and MF, but if these nerfs come into play, I can't see myself taking either. I'd rather have AV outside of raiding as an oh frak button.

[superdooper]

I use MF on Durumu, Primoridus and Tortos as Destro. I'm demo on Council (for obvious reasons) which is one of the few fights I actually use MF more often than KjC now that I think about it.

Jinrokh: KjC
Horridon: MF
Council: KjC
Tortos: MF
Megaera: MF
JiKun: KjC
Durumu: MF
Primordius: MF
Animus: MF
Iron Qon: KjC
Twins: KjC
Lei-Shen: MF
Ra-den: AV



I strongly think people overestimate the value of KjC for Destro/Demo.

Now, Affliction is completely crippled without it.

Out of curiousity - Do you think Destro is a viable spec in 5.4 with nerfs to both MF & KJC?

In my opinion, the only reason MF is used in the fights you listed above is because you can keep RoF on a ton of mobs for ember generation, and thus, spam chaos bolts & shadowburn. These excess chaos bolts make up a huge portion of the dps %s for these fights (and easily compensate for lost dps during movement). Now taking into effect the MF nerf, let's say it decreases overall ember generation by roughly 50% during the course of the fight, our overall dps numbers will fall through the floor (I would ballpark -15%).

I believe the KJC nerf will kill Affliction, and the combined KJC & MF nerf will kill Destro.

Of course, we'd have to expect a huge damage buff to both Affliction & Destro spells to compensate for these insane nerfs.

[Deleted]

I am so IMMENSELY HAPPY with the warlock nerfs! Like you guys had OP last tier talents in the first place its just something which should've been done LONG ago than now..don't attack me, BUT BOTH THE MF nerf , the KIC nerf were well-justified!

Care to elaborate?
Ofc not, you're one of those ..

I can come up with 2 ways of blizzard not destroying destruction and affliction in the raiding scene, with the nerfs going live.

1) Little to no movement on boss fights. Think Brutallus or Lord Marrowgar.

2) Buffs across the board to both specs. Think retpaladins in 3.0

[Hellfury]

As a demo lock more pissed about MF nerf than KJC, a good demo lock knows how to use leap and TOC when movement is needed and Felflame isnt also bad filler when one needs to move

MF was imo one of the best things in MOP for warlocks, ridiculous fun and pratical for soloing and daily stuff, I will be a sad panda to see it go.