[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion

[Deleted]

At least you'll still outheal them on spread encounters, of which SOO is not lacking.

What can Holy Paladins do?

Maybe when they don't have the sense to switch to rushing waters

[Kyuuseishu]

"Seal of Insight no longer has a chance to restore mana on attacks."

When did that happen? something recent or did I just completely miss that?

Considering its not on the current PTR build (according to the tooltip anyway) its something for a future build. Completely off topic though they did indeed smack protection paladins healing down and a slight nerf to their use of Avengers shield.

Glyph of Battle Healer has been redesigned. The glyph now causes Seal of Insight to heal the most wounded raid or party member instead of the Paladin.
Grand Crusader no longer has a chance to activate from Crusader Strike and Hammer of the Righteous, but now has a 30% chance to activate when dodging or parrying a melee attack (up from 12%).

[Lumineux]

"Seal of Insight no longer has a chance to restore mana on attacks."

When did that happen? something recent or did I just completely miss that?

Like, not that that's a big deal - I can't be in melee for more than half the fights in ToT anyways...but...why? I don't understand this at all, did they think our mana regen was too high...? Because I don't think anyone who plays WoW thinks that. Monks don't even use mana and they're nerfing a paladin regen mechanic?

I just don't even know.

[Dubalicious]

but...why? I don't understand this at all, did they think our mana regen was too high...?

The only thing I can think is that it's paving the way for some other more significant/major change to our regen or mechanics. But again, I continue to be unreasonably positive in this extremely . . . weird time (even for a testing period things just seem extremely slow and without much direction)

[Xs]

Like, not that that's a big deal - I can't be in melee for more than half the fights in ToT anyways...but...why? I don't understand this at all, did they think our mana regen was too high...? Because I don't think anyone who plays WoW thinks that. Monks don't even use mana and they're nerfing a paladin regen mechanic?

I just don't even know.

Its probably to normalize regen for all Holydins, rather than having to deal with them being classed as ranged for mechanics but having a mechanic which benefits them being in melee range.

[Deleted]

Can still Crusader Strike for Holy Power so...

And seriously, I dunno about the whole regen normalized thing. To me it seemed more like a : "well this is a thing of the past lets remove it". Instead of: lets remove this to buff regen elsewhere. The lack of added changes support this view.

I'm pretty much down atm after seeing the shaman changes at least. I doubt any shaman in the world expected such a buff to healing rain. Its beyond insane.

[Xs]

Can still Crusader Strike for Holy Power so...

Which is an incredibly inefficient way of generating Holy Power and is very rarely useful, so not a real 'benefit'.

[Tiberria]

I'm pretty much down atm after seeing the shaman changes at least. I doubt any shaman in the world expected such a buff to healing rain. Its beyond insane.

I don't think it's beyond shocking, given that
(1) We have terrible spread healing tools, have had that issue for 2+ expansions, and are always told that we can't have proper spread healing because we have a "stacked healing niche" that we are "amazing" at.
(2) Our stacked healing is actually 5th-6th place across all of the main ToT stacked fights (IQ, Megaera, Council, Ra-Den)
(3) SoO looks like it has even less stacking opportunities than ToT did, making this less of a balance issue - it isn't like HR is being buffed outright - this is only going to make much of a difference when more than melee can be in it.

They probably just decided to shut us up by making us the dominant stacked healers beyond any doubt whatsoever. With the current state of absorbs, and Mistweaver/Druid AoE burst, they probably had to do something this ridiculous.

[jce4ever]

Which is an incredibly inefficient way of generating Holy Power and is very rarely useful, so not a real 'benefit'.

I beg to differ

[Freia]

This is getting ridiculous, they need to stop just throwing out nerf after nerf.

[Deleted]

I don't think it's beyond shocking, given that
(1) We have terrible spread healing tools, have had that issue for 2+ expansions, and are always told that we can't have proper spread healing because we have a "stacked healing niche" that we are "amazing" at.
(2) Our stacked healing is actually 5th-6th place across all of the main ToT stacked fights (IQ, Megaera, Council, Ra-Den)
(3) SoO looks like it has even less stacking opportunities than ToT did, making this less of a balance issue - it isn't like HR is being buffed outright - this is only going to make much of a difference when more than melee can be in it.

They probably just decided to shut us up by making us the dominant stacked healers beyond any doubt whatsoever. With the current state of absorbs, and Mistweaver/Druid AoE burst, they probably had to do something this ridiculous.

Having an issue for x amount of time doesn't justify overbuffing, equilibrium is the goal. These changes make shaman incredibly powerful at both stacked and spread healing given they talent and glyph correctly. If you honestly think this is going to go live you're nuts;

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/2quzp...9/?s=365&e=522

Here's Ra-den's last phase from the highest parsing healer in the world right now, 37% of his healing is from healing rain and it does 127k HPS by itself. That is already far and ahead of any other passive spell in the game, add in a 133% buff and that rockets to 300k HPS from one spell which you may or may not need to place.

Also, so far in SoO out of the bosses tested only one has been explicitly spread and it's the first boss which requires next to no AE healing output.

Also, I guess it's a good thing that insight is gone now considering a lot of people complained they couldn't get in melee range. Opens up opportunity for a regen buff without getting out of hand on certain encounters.

[Deleted]

What I find even more interesting is that with this change to Healing Rain it would actually put enchancement shamans above most healers on a fight like ra den. Our enchancement shaman did 146401 hps this week (last phase) and 80% of it is from healing rain, if this goes live we will need 1 healer for tank healing and a couple of enchancement shaman on fights where you are stacked.

[Lumineux]

Its probably to normalize regen for all Holydins, rather than having to deal with them being classed as ranged for mechanics but having a mechanic which benefits them being in melee range.

I guess but it's not like they've buffed anything else for this slight nerf. Meleeing did help on some fights when it could be done, now we don't have the option at all.

[Xs]

I guess but it's not like they've buffed anything else for this slight nerf. Meleeing did help on some fights when it could be done, now we don't have the option at all.

Yeah, I'd hope they're doing it to make it easier to implement some buffs/tweaks, but I'm not holding my breath anymore, that'd be quite a big change to make at this stage in then PTR

[Freia]

Also, I guess it's a good thing that insight is gone now considering a lot of people complained they couldn't get in melee range. Opens up opportunity for a regen buff without getting out of hand on certain encounters.

The nerf should have came with the buff then and not just another nerf with no compensation. At this time they just said there will be compensation for the EF nerf, not all these extra nerfs.

[Tiberria]

Having an issue for x amount of time doesn't justify overbuffing, equilibrium is the goal. These changes make shaman incredibly powerful at both stacked and spread healing given they talent and glyph correctly. If you honestly think this is going to go live you're nuts;

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/2quzp...9/?s=365&e=522

Here's Ra-den's last phase from the highest parsing healer in the world right now, 37% of his healing is from healing rain and it does 127k HPS by itself. That is already far and ahead of any other passive spell in the game, add in a 133% buff and that rockets to 300k HPS from one spell which you may or may not need to place.

Also, so far in SoO out of the bosses tested only one has been explicitly spread and it's the first boss which requires next to no AE healing output.

Also, I guess it's a good thing that insight is gone now considering a lot of people complained they couldn't get in melee range. Opens up opportunity for a regen buff without getting out of hand on certain encounters.

Using the #1 parse on a fight which is the most Resto Shaman niche fight in the last 3 tiers to determine whether something is OP or not is generally only useful for exaggeration. The nature of Shaman mastery is that our top healing parses have a larger variation from the norm/average than other classes. I had the #1 Resto Shaman parse on that fight for a few days a few weeks back (its now US/EU 10th), and the reason it was so high was because the fight was a complete disaster that we somehow didn't wipe to. Also, keep in mind that on an aggregate level, Shaman are the lowest performing healer on Ra-Den, which should be a fight we dominate.

Healing Rain might be too strong, I am not going to deny that - but Monks, Druids and Disc Priests are all ridiculous in 5.4 and all have mechanics that play better into SoO fight design than Shaman. If it turns out it is too overpowered, the more sensible approach would be to nerf the base healing of Healing Rain, but leave the 14 target cap design. It doesn't make sense for HR to be worth casting on 2-3 people, and the higher target cap makes our output scale up better as the raid stacks - which is what should happen when you have a "stacked healing niche".

[Lumineux]

The nerf should have came with the buff then and not just another nerf with no compensation. At this time they just said there will be compensation for the EF nerf, not all these extra nerfs.

Yeah just doesn't make any sense. Every other class gets a plethora of patch notes each time they're released. Holy pallies get like what, one or two lines of nerfs? Lol.

[Deleted]

Well same response as last patch. Lets wait for next week.

[nightfalls]

Yeah just doesn't make any sense. Every other class gets a plethora of patch notes each time they're released. Holy pallies get like what, one or two lines of nerfs? Lol.

Question: how many weeks and PTR builds has it been since they announced we're "getting compensation?"

[Dubalicious]

30% base nerf is undone and Sacred Shield changes are undone.

This is where we are right now! No other changes have been made.

I don't know if I missed it previously, or maybe somebody can confirm, but my EF HoT is healing for as much on PTR as Live (disregarding mastery obviously)

Did I miss them reverting the HoT nerf, or did they sneak this in? It's probably not enough but it might be something.