[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion

[Kyuuseishu]

It's already been done once in 5.3 without problems...

That was a very minor change to stop mastery scaling getting out of control, which now most paladins bypass by gemming pure mastery in the space of spirit. Spell interaction with mastery remained unchanged, whereas changes you are suggesting, of which are vague anyway, are a bit more indepth than a small mastery scaling change.

Even with the current 5.4 changes, our mastery scaling I believe wouldn't need changing since unless you can get a cast off on everyone before the 15 seconds are up of IH then the 5.2/5.3 level of shielding will not exist anymore, unless you are willing to burn mana just to keep it so, or you have complete control of raid position to optimize HR usage.

[Deleted]

That was a very minor change to stop mastery scaling getting out of control, which now most paladins bypass by gemming pure mastery in the space of spirit. Spell interaction with mastery remained unchanged, whereas changes you are suggesting, of which are vague anyway, are a bit more indepth than a small mastery scaling change.

Even with the current 5.4 changes, our mastery scaling I believe wouldn't need changing since unless you can get a cast off on everyone before the 15 seconds are up of IH then the 5.2/5.3 level of shielding will not exist anymore, unless you are willing to burn mana just to keep it so, or you have complete control of raid position to optimize HR usage.

No that's literally what I'm suggesting, buff the spells and nerf mastery. Shield values stay the same, reactive healing is buffed.

[Kyuuseishu]

No that's literally what I'm suggesting, buff the spells and nerf mastery. Shield values stay the same, reactive healing is buffed.

If you wanted shield values to stay the same, every spell we have would have to be buffed in a similar way, otherwise it turns into a buff under reactive healing, aka the instants, and a nerf to spells we have to cast which can hardly be considered reactive with 2 second cast times.

[Deleted]

If you wanted shield values to stay the same, every spell we have would have to be buffed in a similar way, otherwise it turns into a buff under reactive healing, aka the instants, and a nerf to spells we have to cast which can hardly be considered reactive with 2 second cast times.

If anything the shields should be less powerful with better initial healing, especially if some people are still considering blasting overhealing to stack it. Though with same shield values and buffed initial healing I don't see how that could be a nerf in any sense of the word, since it's pretty much just more healing while mastery remains constant.

[Absintheminded]

I tend to look at the upcoming changes as baby steps in what could be the right direction. We waited a month, now we're starting to see the attention they're giving us. I'm being objective as I look at what they're saying. As far as SH goes, yes, it's fundamentally a playstyle change, but 1/ I already CS (so now I just get 40 yard range HP), and 2/ IH procs on EF are gone in 5.4 anyway. Also, at least for me in 10 mans, I don't find spamming HR for HP to be the least bit efficient. I weave HS/CS/HR for my HP rather.

I'm holding my breath on GoTAK, because we do not have any idea on how much the healing will be increased. If it is strong enough, we will be able to use it (albeit still on a longer cooldown than others) as a raid healing throughput cooldown.


Again: Objectivity.

[Kyuuseishu]

If anything the shields should be less powerful with better initial healing, especially if some people are still considering blasting overhealing to stack it. Though with same shield values and buffed initial healing I don't see how that could be a nerf in any sense of the word, since it's pretty much just more healing while mastery remains constant.

Like I said it would have to be all spells and not just a select few, but even with this +healing -mastery to remain constant, people stacking shields will still try to do so since this doesn't exactly discourage it. They will be able to stack shields in a way as well as having increased initial healing.

Just with our mastery being an absorb mastery since cata, clearly in some way we are supposed to be a preventative healer but not to the same degree as a disc priest. Cata we couldn't exactly do this and mastery was less favourable than haste. MoP comes along with an ability to capitalise on our mastery, but Blizzard go mental over this method and remove it. What are we supposed to be? Preventative or Reactive? either way there are other classes who are better at both.

[Deleted]

Like I said it would have to be all spells and not just a select few, but even with this +healing -mastery to remain constant, people stacking shields will still try to do so since this doesn't exactly discourage it. They will be able to stack shields in a way as well as having increased initial healing.

What's the problem with it being all spells? Also shields should still be present but not to the degree where people are going to absurd spirit values just to spam HR, this method of adjustment would encourage the opposite but not rule it out.

[Kyuuseishu]

What's the problem with it being all spells? Also shields should still be present but not to the degree where people are going to absurd spirit values just to spam HR, this method of adjustment would encourage the opposite but not rule it out.

Well I sit on 15k spirit then after that gemming pure mastery, and I wouldn't call that absurd. I don't even spam out HR all that much and I still require around this level of spirit to maintain a decent regen. I didn't say it was a problem, you just weren't clear on if it was all spells or a select few. But if this change where to go ahead on top of the current iteration of the 5.4 PTR. Those who are still stacking shields will continue to do so regardless because just giving +healing and nerfing the mastery so that it doesn't change won't make people switch their healing style. A complete rework of how the whole toolkit interacts is what will change it. the EF nerf was a big discouragement but right now it is ingrained that this is our viable healing style.

[Cairhiin]

What's the problem with it being all spells? Also shields should still be present but not to the degree where people are going to absurd spirit values just to spam HR, this method of adjustment would encourage the opposite but not rule it out.

When only two spells grant Holy Power, and Holy Power is needed for your decent heals, it promotes spamming those two spells. The whole Holy Power system is a problem. Furthermore, I don't understand why some people seem to think rolling EFs on the raid takes no skill, and want to happily go back to spamming LoD instead, a smart heal that requires no targeting or thought whatsoever; seems rather paradoxical.

[Deleted]

Well I sit on 15k spirit then after that gemming pure mastery, and I wouldn't call that absurd. I don't even spam out HR all that much and I still require around this level of spirit to maintain a decent regen. I didn't say it was a problem, you just weren't clear on if it was all spells or a select few. But if this change where to go ahead on top of the current iteration of the 5.4 PTR. Those who are still stacking shields will continue to do so regardless because just giving +healing and nerfing the mastery so that it doesn't change won't make people switch their healing style. A complete rework of how the whole toolkit interacts is what will change it. the EF nerf was a big discouragement but right now it is ingrained that this is our viable healing style.

Yeah you see this attitude reminds me of Affiniti's insistence that monks would be using jab as a chi generator in 5.2, you can see how that turned out...

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When only two spells grant Holy Power, and Holy Power is needed for your decent heals, it promotes spamming those two spells. The whole Holy Power system is a problem. Furthermore, I don't understand why some people seem to think rolling EFs on the raid takes no skill, and want to happily go back to spamming LoD instead, a smart heal that requires no targeting or thought whatsoever; seems rather paradoxical.

The only thing that's encouraging you to spam them though is mastery shields, tune those down and buff the healing that's effective during health deficits and that problem fixes itself. Also, I believe it's because working with LoD requires intelligent banking of HoPo to deal with bursts and isn't just fire and forget.

[Freia]

The only thing that's encouraging you to spam them though is mastery shields, tune those down and buff the healing that's effective during health deficits and that problem fixes itself. Also, I believe it's because working with LoD requires intelligent banking of HoPo to deal with bursts and isn't just fire and forget.

So you suggest we sit and wait for damage to happen then react by casting long cast time heals and then getting holy power for LoD? Pure reactive healing is dead. The game needs to change for that to be fixed. Other healers will just snip our "reactive heals" right now. That is what people are trying to tell you. If absorbs don't cover the damage the HoT blanketers and instant casts will cover most of it. The problem will not be fixed by tuning down our mastery as you say.

Banking HP? Seriously? That is such a loss. I get 5 holy power and there is no big raid damage in sight. You are suggesting to save that and do what exactly? Waste holy power? If we had something similar to rogues(anticipation) where we can have more than then the 5 holy power for reserve, maybe. Even then we would have to use it when we get to that reserve cap. What you want requires rework and quite frankly I don't think anyone would really wants a sit and wait to heal playstyle.

[Kyuuseishu]

Yeah you see this attitude reminds me of Affiniti's insistence that monks would be using jab as a chi generator in 5.2, you can see how that turned out...

Well they basically made it very very inefficient for you to use jab so monks turned away from it, they haven't made shield stacking inefficient to the same degree thus far, so it will continue. Until they make shield stacking completely unviable, it will still happen.

The only thing that's encouraging you to spam them though is mastery shields, tune those down and buff the healing that's effective during health deficits and that problem fixes itself. Also, I believe it's because working with LoD requires intelligent banking of HoPo to deal with bursts and isn't just fire and forget.

Well not really, our holy power generation is sluggish at best, that banking 5 holy power isn't always a viable option. So its not the fact its requires intelligent banking, it is just banking with our current rate of holy power gain is not exactly viable since spamming of HR will still be used to gain that holy power. There are multiple reasons why the two generators are spammed, refreshing shields is just one of them.

[Deleted]

So you suggest we sit and wait for damage to happen then react by casting long cast time heals and then getting holy power for LoD? Pure reactive healing is dead. The game needs to change for that to be fixed. Other healers will just snip our "reactive heals" right now. That is what people are trying to tell you. If absorbs don't cover the damage the HoT blanketers and instant casts will cover most of it. The problem will not be fixed by tuning down our mastery as you say.

No what other people are trying to tell me is that they will still overheal to stack absorbs despite it being nerfed into a completely inefficient play style. As for hard casting HR as a reaction to burst... sure if you're terrible you could do that. If you're not you'd learn the encounter's damage patterns to deal with it like the 4 other specs who deal the brunt of their output with reactive healing (which is totally dead ).

The problem isn't fixed alone by nerfing mastery, it's fixed with a combined nerf to mastery and buff to healing to discourage overhealing and buff healing while damage is actually present.

[Cairhiin]

The only thing that's encouraging you to spam them though is mastery shields, tune those down and buff the healing that's effective during health deficits and that problem fixes itself. Also, I believe it's because working with LoD requires intelligent banking of HoPo to deal with bursts and isn't just fire and forget.

Banking of HoPo, what are you on about? No sane Holy Paladin banks HoPo, that's a waste of healing, and holy power. LoD takes no skill, no intelligence to use. It needs no target, and is a smart heal, and there is no way you are going to sit on 5 Holy Power. Do you actually have a clue how Holy Paladins work? Slow cast times on our heals, means that all our heals get sniped by all the other healers and their instants, hots and smart heals.

[Freia]

No what other people are trying to tell me is that they will still overheal to stack absorbs despite it being nerfed into a completely inefficient play style. As for hard casting HR as a reaction to burst... sure if you're terrible you could do that. If you're not you'd learn the encounter's damage patterns to deal with it like the 4 other specs who deal the brunt of their output with reactive healing (which is totally dead ).

The problem isn't fixed alone by nerfing mastery, it's fixed with a combined nerf to mastery and buff to healing to discourage overhealing and buff healing while damage is actually present.

We can bank 5 holy power that is at most 2 LoD(shock after the first LoD) before we need more HP which will involve long cast time HR between Shocks. Pure reactive healing is dead. Anyone who says otherwise is clueless. When there is incoming damage you are setting up for it by getting RM on as much of the raid as possible for Uplift, other healers are also proactively getting ready for the burst. So you say we should bank holy power to cast two light of dawns. Because that is enough.

If other healers weren't covering the burst fine. But other healers have proactive healing as well to help them set up for the reactive healing during spike damage. You are basically saying we should be sitting and waiting.

[Deleted]

Banking of HoPo, what are you on about? No sane Holy Paladin banks HoPo, that's a waste of healing, and holy power. LoD takes no skill, no intelligence to use. It needs no target, and is a smart heal, and there is no way you are going to sit on 5 Holy Power. Do you actually have a clue how Holy Paladins work? Slow cast times on our heals, means that all our heals get sniped by all the other healers and their instants, hots and smart heals.

No sane holy paladin currently banks HoPo, in case you didn't notice the discussion has been under the idea that mastery has been nerfed and initial healing has been significantly buffed. It shouldn't be difficult to extrapolate why HoPo banking would be favorable to deal with bursts of damage in those circumstances.

[nightfalls]

The problem isn't fixed alone by nerfing mastery, it's fixed with a combined nerf to mastery and buff to healing to discourage overhealing and buff healing while damage is actually present.

What are you talking about? Basically mastery is just as reactive as it is proactive; that is to say, if I cast a 100k heal + 40k absorb reactively, I am casting a 140k reactive heal. So your suggestion would not "improve reactive healing" as you claim.

The only thing it would do is take away our proactive ability which in reality is what you want all along, that fact is obvious. At least don't lie about it.

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I can agree that healing is too proactive now, but the reason is not paladin mastery. It is Discipline priest Atonement smart heal filler proc'cing Divine Aegis (and contributing an absolutely free non-trivial amount of DPS also) and Spirit Shell on a 1 minute, soon to be ~40 second cooldown where up to 1/2 of all damage is being 100% proactively mitigated.

That is the sole driver of the "arms race" that you see in all the heal specs right now, and that arms race isn't going to go away so long as Disc goes without a (heavy) nerf. For instance the arms race is why Paladins despite a 17% mastery scaling nerf are responding by stacking even more mastery.

The only thing that will change, so long as Blizzard keeps screwing around with the other classes while leaving Disc untouched, are the "winners" and the "losers" of the arms race (the "winner" of course being who can keep up with the Discs), and I guess you like to see everyone but the monks in the "loser" category.

If you actually wanted this arms race to disappear (as I do), Disc forums are that way -->

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No sane holy paladin currently banks HoPo, in case you didn't notice the discussion has been under the idea that mastery has been nerfed and initial healing has been significantly buffed. It shouldn't be difficult to extrapolate why HoPo banking would be favorable to deal with bursts of damage in those circumstances.

Capping out on Holy Power is a complete waste of resources, the only reason you would do it is if your HP finishers were so pitiful that even your generators were better. Which makes you wonder why the fuck they are there in the first place.

[Deleted]

We can bank 5 holy power that is at most 2 LoD(shock after the first LoD) before we need more HP which will involve long cast time HR between Shocks. Pure reactive healing is dead. Anyone who says otherwise is clueless. When there is incoming damage you are setting up for it by getting RM on as much of the raid as possible for Uplift, other healers are also proactively getting ready for the burst. So you say we should bank holy power to cast two light of dawns. Because that is enough.

If other healers weren't covering the burst fine. But other healers have proactive healing as well to help them set up for the reactive healing during spike damage. You are basically saying we should be sitting and waiting.

I'm sorry but really what are you complaining about, that you couldn't spam LoD? Any large bursts of damage where banking would be favorable would obviously be spaced adequately to allow you to build up again, any constant damage would/could have a cooldown and HR would be incredibly effective.

Pure reactive healing is what 4 specs currently do, how on earth is it dead? Sure, there are proactive preparations but banking HoPo is what I would consider to be a proactive preparation, the healing done is reactive to incoming damage though. If you're going to start twisting meanings to suit your argument I'm not interested in semantics. As I've said before, this would be under the idea that mastery has been nerfed and initial healing significantly buffed.

[Cairhiin]

No sane holy paladin currently banks HoPo, in case you didn't notice the discussion has been under the idea that mastery has been nerfed and initial healing has been significantly buffed. It shouldn't be difficult to extrapolate why HoPo banking would be favorable to deal with bursts of damage in those circumstances.

It doesn't change anything, sitting on Holy Power is a waste of resources and mana. You will never bank Holy Power, unless the finishers become so bad they aren't worth casting, at which point you might as well remove Holy Power. Reactive healing works for some healers because they use hots, instants and smart heals. We Paladins have no such luxury. Good luck healing someone with Divine Light, tell me how you are doing.

[nightfalls]

Sure, there are proactive preparations but banking HoPo is what I would consider to be a proactive preparation.

Bullshit.

"Proactive preparation" is ensuring your renewing mists are up on your targets. It's making sure your Mushrooms are are being stacked up with your Rejuvs over enough time.

Sitting on 4 chi spamming more Renewing Mist and taking 3 globals to put the Mushrooms down 2 seconds before massive raid AoE does not proactive healing make.