[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion

[Freia]

The range is fine. The 6 target cap is not.

[Kyuuseishu]

You have to remember that talents have to be useful to all 3 specs. What would be the use of making it effect a holy spell when non of the other specs can use it? I'm surprised that they have gone down the road of making it so SH makes Judgment give us HP as the other two have that anyway (or is it just ret? I don't play prot at all).

Well they've already done this by making SH affect divine light, no other paladin spec gets this spell. This is just as an off-note to show that it has been done.

[Deleted]

The range is fine. The 6 target cap is not.

The 6 target cap is fine. It just needs its output tripled.

[Deleted]

You have to remember that talents have to be useful to all 3 specs. What would be the use of making it effect a holy spell when non of the other specs can use it? I'm surprised that they have gone down the road of making it so SH makes Judgment give us HP as the other two have that anyway (or is it just ret? I don't play prot at all).

Well they've already done this by making SH affect divine light, no other paladin spec gets this spell. This is just as an off-note to show that it has been done.

They mostly did that because holy wasn't using Flash of Light since it's not worth casting. And to try to stop the dominance of EF. A lot of talents actually do different shit based on your spec. Every hybrid class has one or more of those talents. And in my opinion it's almost impossible to have talents being equal across specs that are so different tank/heal/dps with 3 very different roles.

I really believe this should not stop us or blizz from improving any spec. They have to make talent changes because for paladins you have some boss specific ones. But mostly it's just set in stone which is better for what spec.

[Simulacrum]

The 6 target cap is fine. It just needs its output tripled.

You want it to hit 6 targets for the same as WoG hits 1 target?

Interesting idea... let us see how it does on the open stage.

[dragconus]

Just reduce the cd of HS to 3-4 seconds and add healing output through our mastery instead of the static 5% on SoI .

[Absintheminded]

You want it to hit 6 targets for the same as WoG hits 1 target?

Interesting idea... let us see how it does on the open stage.

Exactly, there needs to be a reason to use either in different situations, not a Jack of all trades HP finisher.

[Cybnext]

Exactly, there needs to be a reason to use either in different situations, not a Jack of all trades HP finisher.

Might as well remove WoG and just use LoD if LoD is going to hit each target for the same amount as a single WoG...

[Freia]

The idea on the forums for EF to add a hot component to WoG and LoD is also an interesting one. Though it will never happen most likely since GC thinks HoTs are druid thing.

[Dubalicious]

Might as well remove WoG and just use LoD if LoD is going to hit each target for the same amount as a single WoG...

The issue with WoG is it fills a role that we already have plenty of other spells to take care of (single target "bursty" heal). The *ONLY* reason to use WoG is to dump holy power, or in an emergency situation (where a mistake has likely occurred). LoD is a very important spell because it fills a hole in our kit, but it's still not a relatively powerful spell as far as throughput goes, which is why people want it buffed. We have two finishers and one of them inherently sucks because it doesn't provide any additional "tool" to deal with damage (WoG), so does that mean that LoD should also suck so they're even? That's unfortunately what we're looking at right now. I think a target buff is more reasonable than a healing buff, but both would be welcomed.

[E] what would be nice is if they brought back the old "Last Word" mechanic that provided a higher crit rate on low-hp targets, while simultaneously buffing LoD just a tad. That would at least make both spells "usable" in certain situations.

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our single target healing will be insane with any splash damage aoe healing? With stacked AoE healing we can now just target any free DL and FoL onto the tank to get a holy power that way and if he's topped off, spalsh any overhealing onto the raid. I'm very much liking the changes they are making.

I can't quite follow what you're saying here

[Deleted]

Wrote a more complex reply after testing last night's build, but somehow the mmo-champion forum failed me so will shorten a bit

1)SH isn't viable in high end raiding.It might be for PvP. The problem is, your Holy Power generation rate doesn't actually increase and the 3 Holy Power abilities at your disposal are flat out bad. The only thing that changes is the mana efficiency of obtaining said Holy Power.

2) We need to be in melee anyway. Due to the PTR Glyph of the Battle Healer and Crusader strike nothing changes from this regard.

3) Our mana regen is just too poor compared to the other healers, and insanely beyond words poor compared to MW and Disc Priests.

4)Haste is still a very bad stat, nothing changed about it.

Edit. Not to forget the new GoaK still sucks.

[mcbubble]

Wrote a more complex reply after testing last night's build, but somehow the mmo-champion forum failed me so will shorten a bit

1)SH isn't viable in high end raiding.It might be for PvP. The problem is, your Holy Power generation rate doesn't actually increase and the 3 Holy Power abilities at your disposal are flat out bad. The only thing that changes is the mana efficiency of obtaining said Holy Power.

2) We need to be in melee anyway. Due to the PTR Glyph of the Battle Healer and Crusader strike nothing changes from this regard.

3) Our mana regen is just too poor compared to the other healers, and insanely beyond words poor compared to MW and Disc Priests.

4)Haste is still a very bad stat, nothing changed about it.

Edit. Not to forget the new GoaK still sucks.

I thought haste was a good stat, just bad for us since our mana is such a huge issue, and also since our mastery trumps all.
Regardless, this, coming from Aladya, makes me very worried.

[Deleted]

I thought haste was a good stat, just bad for us since our mana is such a huge issue, and also since our mastery trumps all.
Regardless, this, coming from Aladya, makes me very worried.

In theory haste is a powerful stat, nearly trumping mastery. In practice, it sucks balls as Resto Druids/Mistweavers/HPriests have already healed the guy/the disc priest has already absorbed the damage/he and the raid got healing rained for 10 billions if the fight was stacked . Also remember you have DF at your disposal.

The reason to aim for haste is usually to provide additional ticks to hots, not for cast times. We have no hots that would benefit from haste(that much).

Edit: If this is Blizzard's idea of compensation for SoI loss/EF absorbs(which work on PTR still) its looking grim.

[Gilthresa]

I thought haste was a good stat, just bad for us since our mana is such a huge issue, and also since our mastery trumps all.
Regardless, this, coming from Aladya, makes me very worried.

Haste has been terrible ever since they removed the hot portion from holy radiance in cata.

[Dubalicious]

Edit. Not to forget the new GoaK still sucks.

It's hardly even "new". It's the same healing mechanic as before but applies to HR/LoD. At least it will be useful, but it does seem to still be a bit behind other throughput cooldowns (can't say for sure until they fix the bug where it despawns early)

[Pasture]

The idea on the forums for EF to add a hot component to WoG and LoD is also an interesting one. Though it will never happen most likely since GC thinks HoTs are druid thing.

I've been suggesting this for a while. WoG competes with LoD. EF should compete with (insert buffed LoD here). I was thinking LoD has a Wild Growth effect on top. Short duration hot.

The problem, of course, is that it just makes that talent even more mandatory.

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It's hardly even "new". It's the same healing mechanic as before but applies to HR/LoD. At least it will be useful, but it does seem to still be a bit behind other throughput cooldowns (can't say for sure until they fix the bug where it despawns early)

Someone posted caps of Guardian a few pages back. It essentially doubles HR / LoD plus splash. Even single target we can spam for a full 15 seconds. I can see it having some very useful moments. When stacked we can apportion the healing more usefully through HR/HS/LoD and when spread we get the double heals for longer.

Still, they haven't buffed it up to a 5 minute cooldown level. It could stand to be 3 minutes. I wish they'd stop resisting.

[nightfalls]

I've been suggesting this for a while. WoG competes with LoD. EF should compete with (insert buffed LoD here). I was thinking LoD has a Wild Growth effect on top. Short duration hot.

The problem, of course, is that it just makes that talent even more mandatory.

I suggested making it baseline and not part of EF. The reasoning behind this is simple; Effectively, it increases the healing done in bigger groups and when more damage is going out, but does not make it too overpowered for small groups. It's increasing the target cap only for 25m in a way, but not really doing so. Also puts diminishing returns on just spamming it, versus weaving it in with other abilities.

[Dubalicious]

It essentially doubles HR / LoD plus splash.

Right, this is why I say it's the same healing mechanic. Don't get me wrong, it's MUCH better now that it applies to HR/LoD, but I still feel it's behind other throughput CD's especially since (as you mentioned) it's still a 5 minute CD.

[Deleted]

They need to increase the Duration of Guardian up to 30 seconds again or reduce the CD to 3 minutes. One or the other is fine.
Also still want AM to work on Physical Damage too.

[Deleted]

The new SH is still bad, I don't understand why people fail to see the severity of loosing EF and get excited about this SH + haste build.

You lose EF to gain a ranged and more mana efficient CS(60k mana per min gained compared to using CS). Congratulations you now can do your HR, HS, judgment, LoD rotation forever...too bad it's worse than HR, HR, HS, EF(which is still worse HPS of all healing classes after EF nerf). I posted a few pages back what SH needs to be considered competitive in high end raiding, short of that I don't see it viable for PvE over EF. Yes every 3 judgements you will also get a free 160% DL, HPS loss but mana gain to use it, will be good if you can save someone from dieing with it though(if smart heals don't snipe it before you react). It might be ok for 10 man, not sure how much HR is used in 10, only speaking from a 25 perspective here.

So to sum up SH is a mana efficient talent, but that does not fix our throughput problems, in fact it makes them worse.