[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion

[Deleted]

Did a bit of lei shen last night on the pala, and it makes me realise just how weak we're gonna be. 58% of my total healing was IH. Our toolkit is absolutely useless for it. Prism literally the only useful spell. May as well have been on the druid with the amount of denounce etc I was spamming.

[Keiyra]

Glyph of Divine Plea now reduces the amount of mana restored and cooldown of Divine Plea by 50%.

What is the point of that glyph? It doesn't change the total mana/time gained, it just makes it so you have to hit the button twice as often. Am I missing some possible use for that?

[Deleted]

What is the point of that glyph? It doesn't change the total mana/time gained, it just makes it so you have to hit the button twice as often. Am I missing some possible use for that?

it means that on fights with the right fight length, you'll get an extra use out of it.

[Scorpiox69]

On the P.T.R notes = Sacred Shield for Holy Paladins can now be active on more than one target at a time, but the talent now costs mana, and has a 10-second cooldown.

Doesn't specify a max of 3 targets... :\

[Cairhiin]

On the P.T.R notes = Sacred Shield for Holy Paladins can now be active on more than one target at a time, but the talent now costs mana, and has a 10-second cooldown.

Doesn't specify a max of 3 targets... :\

It has a 10 second cooldown, so with 30 second duration, you can only have 3 going at a time.

[cakin]

it means that on fights with the right fight length, you'll get an extra use out of it.

Yea but that still doesn't make sense. It's still the same amount of mana and more clicking like what Keiyra said. Personally with how our playstyle is I'd rather get huge chucks of mana back instead of getting half that back and clicking more DP's.

[Kyuuseishu]

Yea but that still doesn't make sense. It's still the same amount of mana and more clicking like what Keiyra said. Personally with how our playstyle is I'd rather get huge chucks of mana back instead of getting half that back and clicking more DP's.

Well that is entirely your choice, there are those that would rather have it more spread out than big bursts.

[Scorpiox69]

It has a 10 second cooldown, so with 30 second duration, you can only have 3 going at a time.

Got cha

So from the looks of it, we are better off using SS?

[Keiyra]

it means that on fights with the right fight length, you'll get an extra use out of it.

I suppose, just seems like a fair amount of extra clicks/attention to at most get 202.5% spirit mana more than you would using an unglyphed plea; if any only if the timing of your first use and the fight length happen to line up right. Meh, weak glyph imo - doubt i'll end up using it. my 2cp.

[Kyuuseishu]

I suppose, just seems like a fair amount of extra clicks/attention to at most get 6% mana more than you would using an unglyphed plea; if any only if the timing of your first use and the fight length happen to line up right. Meh, weak glyph imo - doubt i'll end up using it. my 2cp.

DP is now based on spirit and isn't a static % amount, unglyphed DP returns a total of 405% spirit as mana over 9 seconds, glyphed half of that.

[Keiyra]

DP is now based on spirit and isn't a static % amount, unglyphed DP returns a total of 405% spirit as mana over 9 seconds, glyphed half of that.

Edited to correct, but that has no material effect on the discussion of the glyph (its still half mana gain for half cd) - whatever i'll drop it, just seemed like a mostly pointless glyph.

[Scorpiox69]

Edited to correct, but that has no material effect on the discussion of the glyph (its still half mana gain for half cd) - whatever i'll drop it, just seemed like a mostly pointless glyph.

Agreed probably will replace it with Glyph of Hand of Sacrifice or Glyph of Divine Shield

[Simulacrum]

it means that on fights with the right fight length, you'll get an extra use out of it.

Wait, how is getting an extra use out of it a good thing, if that "extra use" doesn't actually give you more mana?

First use will give you back 100% of base for base, and 50% for glyphed. So first use in the fight, glyphed is far worse than base. Then a whole minute will pass before you can use the glyphed one again, at which point it becomes equal to base... for one minute, then you can use base again, at the same time as glyphed, and base will have been used twice to regenerate regenerated 200% of base, while glyphed will have been used 3 times to regenerate 150% of base.

So glyphed will never provide more mana than base, while base will provide more mana than glyphed every 2 minutes after first use. You're just spending GCDs for the sake of spending GCDs.

The only advantage I can think of is that it gives you a very tiny earlier use out of the ability, since the lower amount regenerated can be used earlier without capping out, but that will only give as much time as the time it takes to spend half of a DP's regen value worth in mana, which isn't a lot, but it also comes with the downside that it needs to actually be used it twice as often, which means it'll spend more time off cooldown waiting to be used while we're busy doing stuff like spamming heals on people who might need heals right then and there. That's not a big downside, but that advantage isn't a big advantage either.

So unless my brain is having a giant fart right now, this glyph seems like it will practically always *hurt* more than it'll help, which isn't even counting how it takes up a major glyph slot.

[cakin]

Wait, how is getting an extra use out of it a good thing, if that "extra use" doesn't actually give you more mana?

First use will give you back 100% of base for base, and 50% for glyphed. So first use in the fight, glyphed is far worse than base. Then a whole minute will pass before you can use the glyphed one again, at which point it becomes equal to base... for one minute, then you can use base again, at the same time as glyphed, and base will have been used twice to regenerate regenerated 200% of base, while glyphed will have been used 3 times to regenerate 150% of base.

So glyphed will never provide more mana than base, while base will provide more mana than glyphed every 2 minutes after first use. You're just spending GCDs for the sake of spending GCDs.

The only advantage I can think of is that it gives you a very tiny earlier use out of the ability, since the lower amount regenerated can be used earlier without capping out, but that will only give as much time as the time it takes to spend half of a DP's regen value worth in mana, which isn't a lot, but it also comes with the downside that it needs to actually be used it twice as often, which means it'll spend more time off cooldown waiting to be used while we're busy doing stuff like spamming heals on people who might need heals right then and there. That's not a big downside, but that advantage isn't a big advantage either.

So unless my brain is having a giant fart right now, this glyph seems like it will practically always *hurt* more than it'll help, which isn't even counting how it takes up a major glyph slot.

If youre bnain farting then I am too cause that was exactly how I was thinking but couldn't type it out correctly.

[Bizerk]

Looks like haste is the go-to stat again in 5.4. The question is if they will make sacred shield cd scale with haste, or let it scale with mastery. In its current form its just a worse eternal flame to use on tanks only.

[Freia]

I really don't know why there is so much discussion on the DP Glyph. It is really common sense. It could provide more mana over the course of the fight if you have a fight where you can't get in another use 2minute DP but can get a 1minute DP in. It will only amount to an extra 50% of a Full DP but it would still be more mana over the course of the fight. It probably won't happen very often and wouldn't make much difference for the most part. I never used the DP glyph to begin with and I probably won't start with the changes either.

[monikasun88]

The situation where this glyph would give you more mana than unglyphing it are things like if you can get more use out of it more than a minute before getting use out of the unglyphed version (like if you would've used them 1:20 minutes apart) AND the fight has to end before that time (in this example 1:20 after you use your last glyphed DP) otherwise sure you used the spell but the mana you got back didn't actually contribute to the fight. You can do minimal work to make sure the unglyphed version is better or do a lot of work for the glyphed version is better and still have it be worse depending on the fight length which you have no real control over.

[Deleted]

So unless my brain is having a giant fart right now, this glyph seems like it will practically always *hurt* more than it'll help, which isn't even counting how it takes up a major glyph slot.

The brain fart is that you can use DP earlier and in best case scenario you can get more mana out of it but as you said it can also go the other way arround and you can get less mana out of it. Personally I wont be using the glyph.

Looks like haste is the go-to stat again in 5.4. The question is if they will make sacred shield cd scale with haste, or let it scale with mastery. In its current form its just a worse eternal flame to use on tanks only.

SS already scales with haste and no haste is not the go to stat in 5.4. Sure haste is good for short fights as mcbubble pointed out a few pages back but if you are doing hardcore progression mastery is way better due to the fact that you wont go oom 3 mins into the fight. Besides going for a haste build will also require you to stack even more spirit than we do atm.

[Deleted]

Oke the DP Glyph... Maybe i can make it more clear with a little chart thing.

We have DP and GDP(glyphed)
DP 100% and 2min cooldown.
GDP 50% and 1min cooldown.

Fight:

1min --- GDP --- DP
2min --- GDP --- --
3min --- GDP --- DP
4min --- GDP --- --
5min --- GDP --- DP
6min --- GDP --- --
7min --- GDP --- DP
8min --- GDP --- --

This is what you are all thinking 8x 50% or 4x 100%. And on a 7min fight(400>350) DP > GDP. But you have to remember that with a lower mana return you will use it earlier. So it becomes more like this.

1min --- GDP --- --
2min --- GDP --- DP
3min --- GDP --- --
4min --- GDP --- DP
5min --- GDP --- --
6min --- GDP --- DP
7min --- GDP --- --
8min --- GDP --- DP

On an 8min fight it would be equal. But on a 7min fight you would gain more mana from the glyph. Now i know there are a lot of variables that can change when/how we use it. And yes it won't take a full 2 minutes for DP to get a max return. But the glyph is not a straight up downgrade like some of you think it is depending on how long the fight lasts. And yes also lower healer phases will change how usefull this glyph is. But if you can always use the GDP on cooldown in theory it should equal or outpreform DP.

[Keiyra]

Besides going for a haste build will also require you to stack even more spirit than we do atm.

True, but since 5.4 plea scales with spirit, you'll be getting more regen per point of spirit. Assuming you have 12k spirit now; just switching from old plea to 5.4 plea means you've gained 525 mp5. Haste/spirit may end up being quite nice. Too soon to tell.