[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion

[Tiberria]

25 times 0,4 equals 10 so yes of couse it did more healing than on live. Obviously that is just an estimate but people were all over the place. Healing rain is not the only offender, HTT and AG (which is almost equal on live) can now both be used, adding another 15% healing.

If people were all over the place, it's not very likely that even 10 were in HR at any given time. That would require both tanks, plus melee plus some ranged. I just tried that fight on the PTR, and I seriously doubt more than 6 on average are in HR - it's a giant mess with people running everywhere. Sure, AG (or RS which is probably better at that ilvl) in addition to HTT is a buff. However, Shaman are 20-30% behind on live, so we should be buffed. Also, given how poor the spec has performed for the last 2 expansions (and really the last time it was the top healer is what T6?), airing on the side of over buffing for once probably isn't the end of the world.

I want to see 25 man raid testing from competent guilds before jumping to conclusions over LFR logs with unrealistically low overheal (which means unrealistically high HR healing and mastery contribution).

[mcbubble]

Ha, Tibbee - with that kind of spin, you should work for a politiician.
*see's a resto shammy doing 180k, looks at the paladin doing 100k and says the paladin has to be nerfed...

I'm starting to think that Tibbee is Reglitch in shaman form!

[Tiberria]

There's a difference between being better than other classes at stacked healing and being completely overpowered at it like shamans are on ptr. I can pretty much tell you right now if no changes are made on a stacked up fight you kick all the healers and replace them with resto shamans cause the difference is massive.

There are some other outlying classes as well though, like holy priests with t16 4p getting 100k+ sanctuary ticks or resto druids that have perma efflo up that costs no mana to put and you can move freely with 0 mana cost as well, never seen a more overpowered glyph than this for the record.

The difference should be massive if it is going to compensate for the type of performance we saw on fights like Dark Animus and Lei Shen when it comes to spread healing - and most of SoO appears to be spread. The ~20% difference from that log probably isn't enough to even keep Shaman on top on stacked fights when overhealing goes up to ~70% either.

[Deleted]

Yeah, I'm finding it a stretch to think of them doing it "all the time" as well. They (sadly) hold onto the identical PvE/PvP inclusion of spells too much, IMO.

Note I did say slightly differently. I didn't say they were completely different spells.
Crowd Control has shorter duration in PvP. Silences lock players but don't lock bosses in the same way that bosses are stun immune. You can taunt PvE mobs but cannot taunt players.

I don't find it a stretch it all to ask that the damage transfer only happens from players. I can understand why Blizzard don't want to separate PvP and PvE however they already make spells behave slightly differently where it makes sense and I think HoS is another of those spells.

[Freia]

The difference should be massive if it is going to compensate for the type of performance we saw on fights like Dark Animus and Lei Shen when it comes to spread healing - and most of SoO appears to be spread. The ~20% difference from that log probably isn't enough to even keep Shaman on top on stacked fights when overhealing goes up to ~70% either.

The buffs to HTT and others is already going to make you better in those situations than live. You do not need to be so overpowered in stacked situations that Shaman are going to be the only healer you bring. LFR on the PTR a shaman does 178k hps and a paladin does 136k hps and you say nerf the paladin. There is no reason to take anything you say seriously at this point because you are just being irrational.

[Floopa]

You need to remember that a competent Disc Priest being present is going to hit a Shaman's HPS harder more than the Paladin's HPS.

[Tiberria]

LFR on the PTR a shaman does 178k hps and a paladin does 136k hps and you say nerf the paladin. There is no reason to take anything you say seriously at this point.

Because you are failing to take those numbers into context of where they would be if overhealing was 20% higher (which it will be at the ilvl LFR will actually be run at) and how big of a difference the scaling of health pools makes to Shaman output.

I agree that they don't want to force you to have SWP style 4 Resto Shaman raids on stacked fights. However, is being 10-20% better on stacked fights really unreasonable when you are 40-50% lower on spread fights (on live, it will be a little closer with the PTR changes)?

The other problem they have is, it isn't that easy to just revert the HR target cap buff. If they do, Shaman will fall back to the middle to bottom of the pack on stacked fights in normal conditions. They can't buff the base healing of HR anymore than they already have, because it's already superior to single target heals on 2 targets. The only other way is to add new mechanics and new spells, or to somehow reduce stacked healing throughput of other healers. They could leave the 14 cap in place but nerf the base healing of HR, but that would probably hurt 10 man Shaman too much. I don't really see a viable solution without a full class redesign.

[Deleted]

If people were all over the place, it's not very likely that even 10 were in HR at any given time. That would require both tanks, plus melee plus some ranged. I just tried that fight on the PTR, and I seriously doubt more than 6 on average are in HR - it's a giant mess with people running everywhere. Sure, AG (or RS which is probably better at that ilvl) in addition to HTT is a buff. However, Shaman are 20-30% behind on live, so we should be buffed. Also, given how poor the spec has performed for the last 2 expansions (and really the last time it was the top healer is what T6?), airing on the side of over buffing for once probably isn't the end of the world.

You see all those russian names on the logs? Atleast 15 people, probably more were from the same guild. They were on TS/vent/mumble/raidcall and kicked any lfr raider that joined and had poor performance (ironic I know). I looked them up and they have killed ra den on live about 2 months ago so apparently they are not garbage.

[Freia]

Because you are failing to take those numbers into context of where they would be if overhealing was 20% higher (which it will be at the ilvl LFR will actually be run at) and how big of a difference the scaling of health pools makes to Shaman output.

I agree that they don't want to force you to have SWP style 4 Resto Shaman raids on stacked fights. However, is being 10-20% better on stacked fights really unreasonable when you are 40-50% lower on spread fights (on live, it will be a little closer with the PTR changes)?

The other problem they have is, it isn't that easy to just revert the HR target cap buff. If they do, Shaman will fall back to the middle to bottom of the pack on stacked fights in normal conditions. They can't buff the base healing of HR anymore than they already have, because it's already superior to single target heals on 2 targets. The only other way is to add new mechanics and new spells, or to somehow reduce stacked healing throughput of other healers. They could leave the 14 cap in place but nerf the base healing of HR, but that would probably hurt 10 man Shaman too much. I don't really see a viable solution without a full class redesign.

If the other healers were actually healing it would have hit the paladins healing too, not just the shamans. Those logs do not in any way say paladin's stacked healing is OP.

[Deleted]

The buffs to HTT and others is already going to make you better in those situations than live. You do not need to be so overpowered in stacked situations that Shaman are going to be the only healer you bring. LFR on the PTR a shaman does 178k hps and a paladin does 136k hps and you say nerf the paladin. There is no reason to take anything you say seriously at this point because you are just being irrational.

^ Shamans are now basically on par at spread fights (rushing streams, CH DR buff & glyph buff). If you really think Healing Rain is going to make it past 25m testing like it is you need to find yourself the closest phillips and get some screws tightened.

[Krekko]

Alright guys, this has been a very long and exhaustive conversation. I want it to continue, but we NEED it to stay on topic with the 5.4 PTR Changes/Discussion about the PALADIN class.

No more hidden agendas for your class of choice, no more pulling off topic with talks of other classes. Keep it classy. We're all welcome here, but the infighting is getting tiresome. Can't we just be friends?

If you wish to discuss healing as it is and it's general synergy between classes, please, take it to either Raids & Dungeons or General Discussion.

[xiloclipse]

On another note, wtf is up with the CD reduction trinket? I question if this will go live, the 29 percent reduction was actually gone from my ptr trinket last night, and the tool tip just showed static spirit, the int proc was also gone. The variety of new trinkets seem absurd for all classes and roles, I can't imagine what ilvl scaling will do to the CD reduction one. Will upgraded TF HM (580 ilvl?) give a 50 or 60 percent reduction? Also does anyone know if they are planning to release the cloaks? I can see this being another class balancer. Though it doesn't work at all with SS as I understand it.

[Floopa]

It's probably being redesigned. The trinket was totally stupid.

[Deleted]

On another note, wtf is up with the CD reduction trinket? I question if this will go live, the 29 percent reduction was actually gone from my ptr trinket last night, and the tool tip just showed static spirit, the int proc was also gone. The variety of new trinkets seem absurd for all classes and roles, I can't imagine what ilvl scaling will do to the CD reduction one. Will upgraded TF HM (580 ilvl?) give a 50 or 60 percent reduction? Also does anyone know if they are planning to release the cloaks? I can see this being another class balancer. Though it doesn't work at all with SS as I understand it.

[Pasture]

On another note, wtf is up with the CD reduction trinket? I question if this will go live, the 29 percent reduction was actually gone from my ptr trinket last night, and the tool tip just showed static spirit, the int proc was also gone. The variety of new trinkets seem absurd for all classes and roles, I can't imagine what ilvl scaling will do to the CD reduction one. Will upgraded TF HM (580 ilvl?) give a 50 or 60 percent reduction? Also does anyone know if they are planning to release the cloaks? I can see this being another class balancer. Though it doesn't work at all with SS as I understand it.

If I remember correctly the cooldown reduction trinket only reduced Favour and Guardian. Probably not worth it.

[Deleted]

If I remember correctly the cooldown reduction trinket only reduced Favour and Guardian. Probably not worth it.

Divine Plea, AW and Guardian, not DF but yes I doubt it is worth it (maybe if they made guardian good).

[Deleted]

On another note, wtf is up with the CD reduction trinket? I question if this will go live, the 29 percent reduction was actually gone from my ptr trinket last night, and the tool tip just showed static spirit, the int proc was also gone. The variety of new trinkets seem absurd for all classes and roles, I can't imagine what ilvl scaling will do to the CD reduction one. Will upgraded TF HM (580 ilvl?) give a 50 or 60 percent reduction? Also does anyone know if they are planning to release the cloaks? I can see this being another class balancer. Though it doesn't work at all with SS as I understand it.

They're removing it from the game probably. A couple of trinkets were borderline silly and unbalance-able. The dps caster amplification trinket for example also won't see the light of day.

[Floopa]

They're removing it from the game probably. A couple of trinkets were borderline silly and unbalance-able. The dps caster amplification trinket for example also won't see the light of day.

And hopefully they'll make the 14% strength trinket "not work" for anyone but strength users, because using that as a Paladin just seems dumb.

[Tiberria]

I really hope they are removing the cooldown trinket for good. Not only is it impossible to fairly balance that across healing specs (some specs just have better cooldowns than others), putting major raid cooldowns on shorter cooldowns would further trivialize healing and allow raids to run progression fights with fewer healers.

[Freia]

Yes they need to remove it from the game. They are out of their minds if it makes it live.