[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion

[nightfalls]

Beacon transfer, which is slightly more than nothing.

That assumes a low Beacon overheal. Initial numbers on my spreadsheet, which does consider overhealing (it allows an input of an overheal % on every ability, meaning that you can put an "average" ability overheal in) currently has EF as the weakest of the 3 talents.

No surprise, considering even without overhealing EF is beat by Light of Dawn unless you consider Beacon transfer (which on average, Beacon can be 60-70% overheal). This also is considering T15 4pc bonus which most people don't run.

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I used our last Ra-den log to see what EF was doing for me with the shield. This fight probably has the highest usage of shields from the HoT and even the HoT ticks themselves. Other fights would probably be less of a nerf than for this one.

Incorrect, Ra-den is one of the fights hit the least (percentage wise) by the nerf; this is because on this fight HoT ticks have plenty of chances not to overheal. On a fight where most ticks are overheal (in other words, most of the rest of the fights, except Tortos), you're going to get hit far harder than on Ra-den.

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I disagree with the first point, we're not on part with our live version on the PTR. Maybe with the 553 amplification trinket+stacked encounter+SH we are on part with our current selves, but we're nowhere near current+553 amplification trinket.

One thing I haven't done yet is make a model of our current 5.3 version versus the 5.4 talents, perhaps I should now...

[Pasture]

But here is the biggest problem I currently see: even though we are at about the same level every other class has revived buffs except discs and mistweavers who were already OP on live. Mistweavers, druids will be kings of spread out healing and very good at hugged healing, Shamans are beyond broken at hugged healing on 25 and discs will be very good in both situations. Where does that leave us?

To be fair we're in this situation on live. All those classes already do those things much better than us, with Holy also being much better at spread healing. We already don't have a niche. We're a jack of all trades. They've pulled us down on shields so they need to pull us up somewhere else, but I don't expect us to suddenly be the best at something. Most likely we'll still be a jack of all trades in 5.4.

[Freia]

That's 20% nerf if we go with no 45 talent and only use WoG...Imo we are on par with live healing in the current PTR version because we have a ton more mastery, more haste and shields are always refreshed by HR. The problems will be on 25 man spread healing if the damage is not constant, as our LoD shields will constantly fall off. In 10 man the chance of IH on anyone dropping is very low.

But here is the biggest problem I currently see: even though we are at about the same level every other class has revived buffs except discs and mistweavers who were already OP on live. Mistweavers, druids will be kings of spread out healing and very good at hugged healing, Shamans are beyond broken at hugged healing on 25 and discs will be very good in both situations. Where does that leave us?

So we are on par with healing live after we get geared in T16 gear for more stats? No, we are not on par at all.

[Deleted]

That assumes a low Beacon overheal. Initial numbers on my spreadsheet, which does consider overhealing (it allows an input of an overheal % on every ability, meaning that you can put an "average" ability overheal in) currently has EF as the weakest of the 3 talents.

No surprise, considering even without overhealing EF is beat by Light of Dawn unless you consider Beacon transfer (which on average, Beacon can be 60-70% overheal). This also is considering T15 4pc bonus which most people don't run.

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Incorrect, Ra-den is one of the fights hit the least (percentage wise) by the nerf; this is because on this fight HoT ticks have plenty of chances not to overheal. On a fight where most ticks are overheal (in other words, most of the rest of the fights, except Tortos), you're going to get hit far harder than on Ra-den.

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One thing I haven't done yet is make a model of our current 5.3 version versus the 5.4 talents, perhaps I should now...

I've always been wondering how you get that kind of overhealing numbers for beacon? I understand, on easy farm bosses

a) Damage taken is much lower (because gear and knowing the fight)
b) My beacon usage is much worse

but for not so easy farm bosses for example beacon overheal is not that high or you're doing something wrong.

My beacon overheal is usually between 40-55% on bosses which are not killed 15 times. (However, for example on Jinrokh it was 85% last week).

And here we are talking about problems on progress, not farm, so please, don't talk about 70% overheal on beacon because it's not the case.

I know, that is not the most important thing on this thread but please, don't spread false information.

[dar3652]

image snip

50% Mastery. 20% loss in healing... Blizz said they didn't want to nerf us. They have some serious make up work to do.

would It be possible to supply similar for a fight like mageara or any fight where you use EF to pre-shield before big damage (rampage)?

[Freia]

I've always been wondering how you get that kind of overhealing numbers for beacon? I understand, on easy farm bosses

a) Damage taken is much lower (because gear and knowing the fight)
b) My beacon usage is much worse

but for not so easy farm bosses for example beacon overheal is not that high or you're doing something wrong.

My beacon overheal is usually between 40-55% on bosses which are not killed 15 times. (However, for example on Jinrokh it was 85% last week).

And here we are talking about problems on progress, not farm, so please, don't talk about 70% overheal on beacon because it's not the case.

I know, that is not the most important thing on this thread but please, don't spread false information.

Depends on your tanks(what class) and 25m will also likely see higher overheal numbers as well. It is very seldom I get low overhealing numbers on beacon.

[dar3652]

I dont know about anyone else but I would kill to get the spell dps trinket:
image snip

Obviously those of us playing in top guilds have 0 chance of ever getting it and we wont even be able to coin it so thats quite sad.

1st equip with the 84% is going to be removed leaving int + passive 14% equip, making it a caster / healer trinket (believe the 1st equip isn't working on PTR currently and is too strong for PvP)

[Deleted]

Depends on your tanks(what class) and 25m will also likely see higher overheal numbers as well. It is very seldom I get low overhealing numbers on beacon.

Bingo. That's exactly the reason no one should throw some numbers saying they are the average.

[Dubalicious]

That assumes a low Beacon overheal. Initial numbers on my spreadsheet, which does consider overhealing (it allows an input of an overheal % on every ability, meaning that you can put an "average" ability overheal in) currently has EF as the weakest of the 3 talents.

No surprise, considering even without overhealing EF is beat by Light of Dawn unless you consider Beacon transfer (which on average, Beacon can be 60-70% overheal). This also is considering T15 4pc bonus which most people don't run.

What percent "overhealing" are you using for Sacred Shield? That seems like a very difficult number to come up with considering very few people have managed to extensively test it at this point.

[E] also not sure what I was "assuming", I was just pointing out to another poster that beacon transfer is an additional factor, even if it's miniscule.

[Deleted]

Bingo. That's exactly the reason no one should throw some numbers saying they are the average.

EDIT: Quick peek through the WoL showed quite similar numbers on 10m and 25m overheal on beacon on respective bosses. However, it is clear that overheal should and will be a bit higher on 25, but logs show that the difference is not that huge.

[Deleted]

What percent "overhealing" are you using for Sacred Shield? That seems like a very difficult number to come up with considering very few people have managed to extensively test it at this point.

[E] also not sure what I was "assuming", I was just pointing out to another poster that beacon transfer is an additional factor, even if it's miniscule.

Im seeing 27-28% overhealing done for 2 different paladins over the course of 5 atempts on thok (including between pulls).

[bouchbagfett]

Incorrect, Ra-den is one of the fights hit the least (percentage wise) by the nerf; this is because on this fight HoT ticks have plenty of chances not to overheal. On a fight where most ticks are overheal (in other words, most of the rest of the fights, except Tortos), you're going to get hit far harder than on Ra-den.

I think you just said what I said. Ra-Den has low overheal from hot ticks and all the shields get used because everyone gets hit. It is modeling the fight that uses EF hot the most but also IM since it is the lowest overheal and nearly no chance for IM to fall off. As far as modeling a fight where we use EF IM shields before damage, I need to do another fight. A balanced fight is probably Dark Animus since it has a mix of pre-shielding, high damage, low damage, spot heals, movement, and spread out. I can do that later tonight.

[nightfalls]

Bingo. That's exactly the reason no one should throw some numbers saying they are the average.

Well, unfortunately when it comes to spreadsheets that's the best way to go, because otherwise your number of scenarios will be enormous, and the differences (even between say 50% and 65% overheal) so small that you're just splitting hairs at that point. At best, one could come up with several different scenarios: High tank versus high raid damage, and 10 versus 25.

So let's assume 20% Light of Dawn overheal, 30% Word of Glory initial hit overheal, and 55% Eternal Flame tick overheal (this might be generous for EF). Then at 50% Beacon overheal, Light of Dawn will pass Eternal Flame.

This is assuming nothing is healing your Beacon target (except Beacon), and that your EF HoT is going on a different person each time. Obviously if you put EF on yourself it would be higher, and if you put EF on the Beacon and/or overlapped the HoTs it would be lower.

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Well, unfortunately when it comes to spreadsheets that's the best way to go, because otherwise your number of scenarios will be enormous, and the differences (even between say 50% and 65% overheal) so small that you're just splitting hairs at that point. At best, one could come up with several different scenarios: High tank versus high raid damage, and 10 versus 25.

So let's assume 20% Light of Dawn overheal, 30% Word of Glory initial hit overheal, and 55% Eternal Flame tick overheal (this might be generous for EF). Then at 50% Beacon overheal, Light of Dawn will pass Eternal Flame.

This is assuming nothing is healing your Beacon target (except Beacon), and that your EF HoT is going on a different person each time. Obviously if you put EF on yourself it would be higher, and if you put EF on the Beacon and/or overlapped the HoTs it would be lower.

--

Edit: Spreadsheet's almost done, but there's a few small kinks to work out after I test PTR; also it still probably has a ton of errors in it. It's designed for 25m only, there's a lot of assumptions that wouldn't hold so well in 10m and which I'm too lazy to put in input fields for.

Right now it's looking quite as predicted: SH really only saves mana and doesn't allow for HPS. SS probably has the best HPS overall (but I haven't tested some parts of the spell yet, so there might still be mistakes), and EF is still best for when absorbs do not dominate (read: NPC healing). Unfortunately all 3 do look collectively weaker than 5.3, but I will make my 5.3 spreadsheet just to see the difference given same gear. Hopefully it can allow us to see where buffs need to be directed.

Also will test some single target healing scenarios though I'm pretty sure I know what I'll discover.

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I think you just said what I said. Ra-Den has low overheal from hot ticks and all the shields get used because everyone gets hit. It is modeling the fight that uses EF hot the most but also IM since it is the lowest overheal and nearly no chance for IM to fall off. As far as modeling a fight where we use EF IM shields before damage, I need to do another fight. A balanced fight is probably Dark Animus since it has a mix of pre-shielding, high damage, low damage, spot heals, movement, and spread out. I can do that later tonight.

I can compare notes with you, I had a method of evaluating the nerf (approximately, since I run with several disc priests it's almost exact) for every fight, so I can see with 2-3 weeks worth of logs what the average nerf % will be. It will be a little less of a nerf if you assume that we snipe our own heals with IH, but as above I don't think that's a big factor.

[Deleted]

Right now it's looking quite as predicted: SH really only saves mana and doesn't allow for HPS. SS probably has the best HPS overall (but I haven't tested some parts of the spell yet, so there might still be mistakes), and EF is still best for when absorbs do not dominate (read: NPC healing). Unfortunately all 3 do look collectively weaker than 5.3, but I will make my 5.3 spreadsheet just to see the difference given same gear. Hopefully it can allow us to see where buffs need to be directed.

Btw asuming no overhealing at all, SS should always be applied to 4 different players rather than 3. The last shield is applied in the last second which means you can overwrite it if you apply SS after 30sec on the same person.

[bouchbagfett]

Dark Animus Heroic 10man. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/6...e/?s=520&e=802

When we have a fight where there is pre-shielding and less constant damage we can see the IM nerf off EF HoT is pretty huge.

[xiloclipse]

I dont know about anyone else but I would kill to get the spell dps trinket

Obviously those of us playing in top guilds have 0 chance of ever getting it and we wont even be able to coin it so thats quite sad.

This trinket has an incorrect tool tip. A couple days ago the 14 percent from the heal one was added to it. My buddy said neither passive nor procs were working. The healer CD trinket also only has static spirit now as we discussed earlier, I would put very little stock in these trinkets going live. The heal 14 percent trinket still gives passive stats.
To respond to what was said a few posts up about us being at live levels... I think a lot of the people saying this don't raid HM progression, sorry if you do happen to, but these statements seem as disconnected from reality as the comments from devs. We feel gutted, and only stacked healing feels decent.


I guess all we can do is hope...

[Kyuuseishu]

After a lot of heavy discussion, we've decided not to go ahead with the Mana Tea nerfs for now. As many of you have pointed out (and we’re keenly aware), solving the issues with Mistweavers’ mana regen is not a small task, and while we’re not happy with how things are working currently, it’s just a bigger problem than we’re comfortable trying to solve in 5.4. We’ll be revisiting the issue in the future.

Note: There is a possibility that the next PTR build will have a number of other changes that we were considering, but have since decided not to go ahead with. Should that happen, they will be reverted in the build after next.

Whelp that lasted long, seems like monks will still be able to ignore spirit whilst others are gathering it like its the last stat they'll ever have. (bar disc ofc). Even with some saying they'll ignore spirit with certain talent builds for us.

[cakin]

After a lot of heavy discussion, we've decided not to go ahead with the Mana Tea nerfs for now. As many of you have pointed out (and we’re keenly aware), solving the issues with Mistweavers’ mana regen is not a small task, and while we’re not happy with how things are working currently, it’s just a bigger problem than we’re comfortable trying to solve in 5.4. We’ll be revisiting the issue in the future.

Note: There is a possibility that the next PTR build will have a number of other changes that we were considering, but have since decided not to go ahead with. Should that happen, they will be reverted in the build after next.

Whelp that lasted long, seems like monks will still be able to ignore spirit whilst others are gathering it like its the last stat they'll ever have. (bar disc ofc). Even with some saying they'll ignore spirit with certain talent builds for us.

I'm curious, for those that have a MW, is it that big a difference or was that big a fit being raised?

Edit: MW as a MS. I only play mine sparingly and not on the PTR.

[Kyuuseishu]

I'm curious, for those that have a MW, is it that big a difference or was that big a fit being raised?

Edit: MW as a MS. I only play mine sparingly and not on the PTR.

Well over in the Monk forums they are joyous about it, that they can continue having a complete disregard for the stat priority of a normal healer. I do find it amusing they are spending so much time trying to balance us with the removal of IH from EF, but they think balancing MW mana regen too big of a task for a patch when they are changing our style of healing completely in the last patch (Major content patch atleast).

[nightfalls]

Well over in the Monk forums they are joyous about it, that they can continue having a complete disregard for the stat priority of a normal healer. I do find it amusing they are spending so much time trying to balance us with the removal of IH from EF, but they think balancing MW mana regen too big of a task for a patch when they are changing our style of healing completely in the last patch (Major content patch atleast).

Absolutely pathetic.

Btw asuming no overhealing at all, SS should always be applied to 4 different players rather than 3. The last shield is applied in the last second which means you can overwrite it if you apply SS after 30sec on the same person.

My spreadsheet doesn't have SS used exactly on cooldown.