An interesting article about raiding

[Flower Milk]

Those people who want endgame content to only be for raiders still havent managed to figure out the biggest problem with that logic, that you cant spend 90% of your resources on 1% of the population and maintain a subscriber base. If you take out LFR you are leaving players with dailies and 5 man/3man dungeons and the majority of players will quit. They quit and you don't have a game to raid in, its simple math.

LFR means that you can have resources spent on end game and everyone can experience it as much as they want. Everyone is engadged.

No one is saying to have "end game content just be for raiders", that is exactly what the guy in that article touched on. He himself said he doesn't like raiding, but doesn't understand why you would want to make raiding more accessible to people who don't enjoy raiding in the first place by trying to change the fundamentals of why it is enjoyable in the first place (to the people that enjoy it).

What the guy who wrote that article was basically trying to say is, design content for the people who enjoy it, and design content for all kinds of play styles because not everyone enjoys doing the same thing.

[lawow74]

The problem is that people want to progress their characters. In WoW, gear is pretty much it for the endgame progression, unless you want to chase achievements(and gear is often a part of that). When you funnel the gear progression into a couple of narrow pathways, people will get tired of it. But on the other hand, you give them the same gear another way, people will probably just pick whichever path is easier and only do that. So how do you balance a solo progression path against a group one? That question is difficult to answer, and I think in lieu of that WoW is trying to offer an easy group solution as the middle ground.

[Flower Milk]

I've been following Wildstar lately (no Beta ) and I think they have the right idea IF AND ONLY IF raiding is one option, but not THE option. The problem with WoW and MMOs like it (and I presume, EQ but I didn't play EQ) is that they push raiding as the pinnacle. The game is ABOUT raiding, everything else is a stepping stone/time waster to get to the current level cap and start to raid. All the WoW clones and WoW imitations follow this pattern: Leveling content is there just because you don't want to make everyone max level immediately, but the raids are what matters.

From what I've read WildStar plans to have various endgame content: Solo content, small group content, group content (i.e. like 5-mans), and raid content but I believe they're all meant to be on the same level, unlike WoW where solo < small group < group < raid. A better analogy might be how The Secret World handles their endgame (from what I've read, I'm only in the second zone): While it's focused around group play, the high level dungeons and the raids are the same level, the raids aren't higher and therefore the "real" endgame.

WildStar is doing something closer to that model. I think WoW COULD pull something like that off (I've said in other similar posts they could in theory make Challenge Mode dungeons drop gear, and then remove huge raids in favor of smaller multiple raids that drop the same level of gear, perhaps obscure things like trinkets or weapons or rings, as the revised CM Dungeons) but I don't think they would succeed because for all these years now they've perpetuated the idea that raiding should be the championship game, the olympics, whatever analogy you want, that everyone in an ideal world would be striving for.

I completely agree with you. A game that understands that not everyone enjoys raiding as their end game is a game that I think will be more enjoyable to a larger pool of people. I also hope that Wildstar has end game for all sorts of play styles, as I do enjoy raiding, but I also enjoy doing other things as my end game, as I think a lot of players do, and don't tend to stay static on one specific play style for their end game.

---------- Post added 2013-06-25 at 05:27 AM ----------

The problem is that people want to progress their characters. In WoW, gear is pretty much it for the endgame progression, unless you want to chase achievements(and gear is often a part of that). When you funnel the gear progression into a couple of narrow pathways, people will get tired of it. But on the other hand, you give them the same gear another way, people will probably just pick whichever path is easier and only do that. So how do you balance a solo progression path against a group one? That question is difficult to answer, and I think in lieu of that WoW is trying to offer an easy group solution as the middle ground.

I think you have to think about what the purpose of gear is in WoW and for the most part has been, a means to progression, in dungeons, raids, etc.

If you create a new class of end game content that gives you say, some other kind of means to progression in that specific class of content, you can only then continue to progress in that kind of content. I think that is how you can best overcome what you are talking about, by giving meaningful rewards in different styles of end game content that cannot be used in other styles of end game content to progress, while also making sure each style of end game content is equally as meaningful.

They tried to do this with PVP but didn't quite hit the mark.

[cashzilla]

the worst thing to ever happen to this game was its giant increase in popularity. it's just like when artists "sell out." they become popular, they oblige to fans, and it usually turns out to be a huge disaster.

blizzard spends all their time trying to make majority of it's sub base happy, and it's still never enough. people who play this game are WAY too entitled, and think blizzard should do everything they say and ask and that their opinions are THE opinions, and that they know what's best for the game. the game was created as an end game content game, and it appealed to players to have giant groups and take down these challenging bosses. THAT warranted reward.

people now want to log in and spend 20 minutes putting some effort into the game and leave with the best gear possible. then you have the people who want to PVP for an hour a day and keep up with heroic progression raiders in damage. give me a break

these people need to realize that their head is up their ass, and deal with it. if you don't like it, go play a new game. blizzard is bending over backwards to get people to keep playing and keep people happy. if you don't like LFR, then shut up and stop playing LFR. if you don't like raiding, you're not going to get end game content gear. too fucking bad for you

[Nobleshield]

the worst thing to ever happen to this game was its giant increase in popularity. it's just like when artists "sell out." they become popular, they oblige to fans, and it usually turns out to be a huge disaster.

blizzard spends all their time trying to make majority of it's sub base happy, and it's still never enough. people who play this game are WAY too entitled, and think blizzard should do everything they say and ask and that their opinions are THE opinions, and that they know what's best for the game. the game was created as an end game content game, and it appealed to players to have giant groups and take down these challenging bosses. THAT warranted reward.

people now want to log in and spend 20 minutes putting some effort into the game and leave with the best gear possible. then you have the people who want to PVP for an hour a day and keep up with heroic progression raiders in damage. give me a break

these people need to realize that their head is up their ass, and deal with it. if you don't like it, go play a new game. blizzard is bending over backwards to get people to keep playing and keep people happy. if you don't like LFR, then shut up and stop playing LFR. if you don't like raiding, you're not going to get end game content gear. too fucking bad for you

Ironically I've never seen that, what I have seen though is entitled people who think that, because they DO like raiding and because they raid, only they deserve everything and the rest of the unwashed scrubs should look up at them in awe. Or "weekend gladiators" that think PVP is serious business and they need to be held up on pedestals as gods to the rest of the community. I have never seen or met anyone who actually feels they should get the best gear just for logging on like the usual "entitled scrub" excuse goes, but I have seen a lot of wannabe hardcore raiders want to take away others' fun so they can feel better about themselves.

[cashzilla]

Ironically I've never seen that, what I have seen though is entitled people who think that, because they DO like raiding and because they raid, only they deserve everything and the rest of the unwashed scrubs should look up at them in awe. Or "weekend gladiators" that think PVP is serious business and they need to be held up on pedestals as gods to the rest of the community. I have never seen or met anyone who actually feels they should get the best gear just for logging on like the usual "entitled scrub" excuse goes, but I have seen a lot of wannabe hardcore raiders want to take away others' fun so they can feel better about themselves.

you're going to have douchers playing the game regardless of what game you look at. like you said, there are definitely the hardcore raiders who feel they are leagues above the rest, but the problem arises when you take these peoples skewed views and egotistical nature into account when you work on developing your game. it's just like people who are extremely wealthy that look down at the rest of the population. it's not right, and it should just be ignored and written off as "that guys a prick." the fact that people are taking the hardcore raiders who think they're gods gift seriously is an issue in itself

[Nobleshield]

you're going to have douchers playing the game regardless of what game you look at. like you said, there are definitely the hardcore raiders who feel they are leagues above the rest, but the problem arises when you take these peoples skewed views and egotistical nature into account when you work on developing your game. it's just like people who are extremely wealthy that look down at the rest of the population. it's not right, and it should just be ignored and written off as "that guys a prick." the fact that people are taking the hardcore raiders who think they're gods gift seriously is an issue in itself

Right, and often these people are the most vocal on community outlets and thus appear to have the most support, so we end up with things like Cataclysm launch heroics.

[Flower Milk]

Right, and often these people are the most vocal on community outlets and thus appear to have the most support, so we end up with things like Cataclysm launch heroics.

So then how did we end up with LFR?

[orioxez]

MMO. Massively Multiplayer Online. If you don't like multiplayer go play Skyrim or something.

[Nobleshield]

So then how did we end up with LFR?

The REAL majority enjoys LFR. I didn't say they ALWAYS listen to the vocal minority, just the vocal minority "everything needs to be uber hard so only the best of the best of the best can do it" crowd sometimes get listened to instead because they tend to yell the loudest.

[Flower Milk]

The REAL majority enjoys LFR. I didn't say they ALWAYS listen to the vocal minority, just the vocal minority "everything needs to be uber hard so only the best of the best of the best can do it" crowd sometimes get listened to instead because they tend to yell the loudest.

I think if they were the minority, then they wouldn't be "yelling the loudest". Generally it seems like Blizzard tends to listen to what they hear frequently from different people, not just one person, or a small group of people, but a lot. Use the Real ID on the forums as an example.

I would have to argue that they made heroics at the start of Cataclysm the way they did because one of the most common complaints regarding heroics in the previous expansion was that they were "too easy" and "faceroll" from what I saw.

[Bigbazz]

I'm sorry, but unless your purpose for raiding is to brag about your accomplishments to other players and try to make them jealous, I don't see how the inclusion of lower difficulties hurts regular raiders. .

Even if it sounds crude, this is an important part of the game. World of Warcraft was built on increasing the size of your e-peen, in the early days the whole game was pretty much revolved around this concept and on a psychological level it is really important for the game to maintain this in a well balanced way, even if it sounds crude and unnecessary it is extremely important.

Exclusive content, bragging, being a special snowflake is what is missing in WoW these days. LFR has succesfully managed to massively reduce the motivation of people to do real raiding, and it has removed a lot of the special snowflake feeling. Remember that epic weapon that one guy on the server had, dropped from the last boss? Now everyone and most of their alts can have this, it no longer has any value, and it really isnt the same effect that it's different because it has a slightly higher stat number.


It's like taking a Ferrari and saying, look everyone we worked out a cheap way to make this awesome car and now everyone can have one. Suddenly a Ferrari isn't a desirable car because so many people have them and because they are so easily accessable, even if the higher end one has a more powerful engine, the lower end car has now massively diminished the value of the higher end car.

This is why in the real world Ferrari don't make cheap or affordable cars and they often only make limited numbers, to maintain the value and status of owning one, to ensure their brand maintains it's value. It isn't any different with this game, even if people love to dismiss e-peen/special snowflake exclusivity as something crude and not-required, it is infact one of the most important aspects of keeping the game dynamic feeling right.

TBC did it well, but was perhaps too hardcore for some, Wrath of the Lich King hit the nail on the head, best of both worlds without devaluing the high end content, whether in pvp or pve.

[Raelbo]

I think basically the point the guy in that article was trying to make is, if you don't particularly like raiding, then making raiding "more accessible" isn't going to help

You do realise there is a huge assumption in that sentence right? From my perspective, and based on what I have seen written by many supporters of LFR, is that a lot of LFR raiders do actually like raiding. Just because you don't like raiding does not make this a universal phenomenon.

Some people don't like raiding. Giving them LFR won't help. But the article failed by not acknowledging the possibility - nay the reality - that a lot of people who weren't raiding actually did want to raid.

I get the argument that the game should offer endgame content for people who don't want to raid. That does not, however, prove that making raiding more accessible is a bad idea.

[Flower Milk]

You do realise there is a huge assumption in that sentence right? From my perspective, and based on what I have seen written by many supporters of LFR, is that a lot of LFR raiders do actually like raiding. Just because you don't like raiding does not make this a universal phenomenon.

Some people don't like raiding. Giving them LFR won't help. But the article failed by not acknowledging the possibility - nay the reality - that a lot of people who weren't raiding actually did want to raid.

I get the argument that the game should offer endgame content for people who don't want to raid. That does not, however, prove that making raiding more accessible is a bad idea.

If they wanted to raid, then I don't see why they would need for raids to be more accessible?

If you're talking about time constraints, then the solution is not LFR, the solution should be tools to find people easier, say for PUGs. Things like Openraid or Oqueue. Blizzard should implement tools like this into the game to make raiding more accessible, not LFR. "More accessible" doesn't need to mean "infinitely easier".

[DrSteveBrule]

If they wanted to raid, then I don't see why they would need for raids to be more accessible?

If you're talking about time constraints, then the solution is not LFR, the solution should be tools to find people easier, say for PUGs. Things like Openraid or Oqueue. Blizzard should implement tools like this into the game to make raiding more accessible, not LFR. "More accessible" doesn't need to mean "infinitely easier".

HHNNNGHHHH finally someone gets it.
"LFR is great for me because it let's me raid on my own time."
Sorry but the only way that was possible was by nerfing the shit out of raiding thus making it more akin to a dungeon.
I.E it's not raiding

[Libertarian]

People say they don't want raiding, them MMOs come out that don't have them and people scream that there is no end game. Really, people just like to complain about how every game is doing it wrong or how something in the past was doing it right.

Maybe it's two different people

[Bigbazz]

If they wanted to raid, then I don't see why they would need for raids to be more accessible?

If you're talking about time constraints, then the solution is not LFR, the solution should be tools to find people easier, say for PUGs. Things like Openraid or Oqueue. Blizzard should implement tools like this into the game to make raiding more accessible, not LFR. "More accessible" doesn't need to mean "infinitely easier".

I agree with this, people who want to raid can raid and making a ridiculously easy afk mode instance with powerful rewards for nothing is not the answer to give raiders more access. Currently it does feel like a necessary part of the game that you're just meant to do, people do it whether they like raiding or not, because it is an assurance that you will improve your characters gear in exchange for simply time, that doesn't make it fun or desirable though, you just do it (dailies?).

What I've always said was that people who like raiding can raid, if they really want to raid then what is stopping them? Systems like Openraid are far far better ideas than having an "along for the ride" free epics mode, it isn't raiding it is just multiplayer farming, it takes all that is good about raiding and throws it out the window, while completely devaluing real raiding. LFR to me is just a chore that I feel I have to do, like dailies, a bastardised form of raiding. And I say that as someone who doesn't really have time for real raiding anymore.


The game needs a massive overhaul on the infrastructure of endgame content and aquiring gear, LFR to me has in part ruined the game. I want Blizzard to look back to The Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King (where the game was by far the most popular it has been, and where in my opinion raiding was the best) and take some ideas out of their own book. They made amazing improvements to the game and released beautiful content in the last 2 expansions, but they also went about ruining the game and devaluing the whole gear progression and raiding system.

[Raelbo]

If you mean: LFR is popular = fun, then I think you are dead wrong. You assume because something is popular it is fun, you assume the same as Blizzard does by looking at the insane amount of players participating in LFR.

LFR's popularity does not prove that it is fun. But this is hardly a solid case for arguing that it is not fun. A far more rational conclusion is that there are a mix of people playing LFR, some of whom do find it fun, and others who don't. The ratio of the two is indeterminate, but I think a lot of LFR haters assume the percentage who don't like it is a lot greater than what it actually is, and this, I believe, stems from the assumption most people make that everyone else thinks exactly like them, and the inability to understand how other people can in fact have different opions and preferences.

As said before on these boards: if you have a big ass chest in the middle of your factions HQ with Full LFR/Heroic gear - you think that chest wouldn't be popular? Wouldn't "everyone" just go to the chest instead of LFR? Or perhaps go to the chest, then go do LFR once (for the story)?

Yes they would. Would they find it satisfying? Of course not. But trying to use this analogy to explain why LFR is popular is called a strawman argument. You have created an extreme example and tried to equate something quite different to it.

If you mean LFR is popular = used a lot. Then yes you are right. It is used a lot. But it is used a lot because it gives you a path of gear progression.

Among other things....

Blizzard could have easily went with another path of gearprogression, while perhaps keeping LFR. You would see how suddenly UNpopular LFR would be vs now.

Oh, you mean like daily quests which give you Valor Points with which to buy gear? At the start of MoP the gear you got from VP was far superior to LFR gear. 13 ilevels better. You could get it without ever stepping into LFR, and faster too by just grinding dailies. Yet people complained a lot more about dailies than about LFR.

I am sure there are people who like LFR. But I do not believe for one second that there are more people liking LFR then there are people doing LFR just because they have to to progress their character gearwise. And I am not even talking about normal/heroic raiders feeling "forced" to raid LFR.

What exactly is the point of gear? No one grinds gear for the sake of getting gear. Gear is a means to an end.

For a serious raider who doesn't like LFR: They might do LFR to advance their normal/heroic progression. But let's be brutally honest here: Any serious raider who "needs" to maximise their progression will get very little meaningful benefit out of LFR. This is because LFR releases so long after regular modes and also because LFR gear is worse than previous tier heroic gear (and during 5.0 LFR gear was worse than VP gear).

Then we have the semi serious raider: They might do LFR to advance their normal progression. These guys potentially could get some kind of advantage by farming LFR. But again, let's be brutally honest here: At this level, doing something you hate to gain a very small advantage if you're not that serious about raiding is just silly.

Lastly we are left with the LFR raiders. What do they want more gear for? Yes, doing better in LFR.

I can accept that many hardcore raiders doing LFR don't enjoy it. But they are a tiny minority.
I can accept that many normal raiders doing LFR aren't wild about it, but really, if they didn't like it all, they have absolutely no real reason to be there - so I believe most of these guys do actually enjoy LFR on some level.
I can't accept that most LFR raiders - who make up the majority of LFR groups are there in spite of not enjoying it. Why would they do something they dislike, to get gear to do better at something they dislike? It makes no sense. They must also, on some level, enjoy LFR.

A far more plausible explanation is that you underestimate how much people enjoy LFR simply because you don't enjoy it yourself.

[Thage]

Bigbazz: Your Ferrari analogy is more like so: before Ford came up with the production line, either you were wealthy enough to afford the vanity of a car, or you rode a horse, maybe a horse and buggy if you were upper-middle class. LFR is the production line that made automobiles a viable industry for more than just the wealthiest of the wealthy, and just like the automotive industry in its infancy, it's being iterated on so people who want Ferraris can ride their Ferraris, while people who can't afford a Ferrari can settle for a four-door sedan without being told to shut up and go ride horses.

[Raelbo]

If they wanted to raid, then I don't see why they would need for raids to be more accessible?

Maybe you don't see because you don't want to see? I don't see how you can't see it!

If you're talking about time constraints, then the solution is not LFR,

Bollox. LFR is a very good solution for many players. It may not be a good solution for you, but that is irrelevant in the big picture. There may be other solutions which might work better for some people and I am not dismissing that the game could benefit from some of those, however that does not mean LFR has no place.

"More accessible" doesn't need to mean "infinitely easier".

And Blizzard agrees with you. Hence Flex Raid. That being said, it doesn't mean LFR was a bad idea. It is very possible that both LFR and Flex raids are great ideas. I know LFR certainly is.

If you don't like it, don't use. It's that simple. A lot of people out do like it, and trying to take it away from them is not particularly constructive or helpful in any way whatsoever