What was the greatest 5-man era of WoW?

[Eranthe]

Wrath Heroics before 3.1. People that were geared to the teeth from BC keep whining how easy the content was, but in quest greens and blues Oculus, AN, Old Kingdom, HoL, and HoS were fairly challenging. People keep lumping the whole WotLK expansion in with the post 3.3 time and forget that there was a time that OK and OC had people dropping group as soon as they zoned in. They were a big reason the PvE deserter debuff was created.

First of all, no, they were not hard in quest gear. Besides you were supposed to do normals before you went in heroics to get the gear "required" to do heroics.

Second of all, people left those dungeons because they didn't want to be bothered with a heroic that would take 20-45 minutes or more with a bad group when you could do azjol nerub for the same reward in 15.

[Deleted]

Doing Glory of the Hero in 3.0 with blue gear just after everyone dinged was certainly an epic experience. Wiped on the last boss in Oculus with 5 amber drakes more than I did my first Naxx25 clear. Luckily, we got it in the first few weeks/months before they nerfed Oculus.

The most fun heroic dungeon however would be the ZG/ZA dungeons in my choice.

[Volitar]

BC was soul crushing as an Elemental Shaman "No cc? gtfo my group"
I though the starter Cata ones were Awesome, didn't need strict comps and it was still pretty challenging for fresh 85's.

Wrath Heroics before 3.1. People that were geared to the teeth from BC keep whining how easy the content was, but in quest greens and blues Oculus, AN, Old Kingdom, HoL, and HoS were fairly challenging. People keep lumping the whole WotLK expansion in with the post 3.3 time and forget that there was a time that OK and OC had people dropping group as soon as they zoned in. They were a big reason the PvE deserter debuff was created.

P.S. people left those dungeons because they didn't feel like spending an hour+ trying to teach people to stop trying to lick their elbows and do the dungeon right.

[Rizendragon]

First of all, no, they were not hard in quest gear. Besides you were supposed to do normals before you went in heroics to get the gear "required" to do heroics.

Second of all, people left those dungeons because they didn't want to be bothered with a heroic that would take 20-45 minutes or more with a bad group when you could do azjol nerub for the same reward in 15.

Even in ilvl187 blues they were challenging for newer players. OK was my personal Achilles heel followed by HoL. I can't even remember how many 1+ hr long OK runs I had...

[Eranthe]

Even in ilvl187 blues they were challenging for newer players. OK was my personal Achilles heel followed by HoL. I can't even remember how many 1+ hr long OK runs I had...

That was motivation for new players to become better. If you think wrath heroics were hard for new players you obviously weren't around for heroic shattered halls timed run. There weren't any new players in heroic shattered halls because it was a HEROIC dungeon and required HEROIC level skills that new players hadn't developed yet.

Everything in the game can't be accessible to every new player or else you're going to water it down for the players who excel. Blizzard realized this back then.

[Rizendragon]

That was motivation for new players to become better. If you think wrath heroics were hard for new players you obviously weren't around for heroic shattered halls timed run. There weren't any new players in heroic shattered halls because it was a HEROIC dungeon and required HEROIC level skills that new players hadn't developed yet.

Everything in the game can't be accessible to every new player or else you're going to water it down for the players who excel. Blizzard realized this back then.

This is probably why so few people raided at the time then. If you're going to have people such as yourself that are upset because newer people need to learn then you're going to have this catch 22 where you need to have experience to gain experience. This is another reason I personally believe that this period of WoW was a "golden age" of sorts. You had just enough difficulty to teach people how to do things while not making it so restrictive that new players didn't get to at least try to make the leap into raiding.

BC = era of entitled brats keeping others out

WotLK = era of easily accessible while content for the "special snowflakes" that will never be matched

P.S. - I'm not saying that everything should be easily accessible immediately, but if you put in the work you should be able to at least get the opportunity to work your way up the ladder.

[Xjev]

Vanilla/tBC dungeons had great design, looks, environments, story, entrance and lots of variety. Doing them never felt like a drag for me.

[clevin]

The bolded part just makes you a douche. Didn't read anything beyond that.

I dont care if your panties are in a twist.

The original poll left off TBC and Vanilla entirely so it was, literally, a poll made for people who started in LK which is silly - that's ignoring about half of the game including the first release which garnered millions of players and the first expansion which saw the game hit 12 million players, a peak that it's never hit since.

Plus, frankly, unless you've run most of the 5 mans in the game at level you can't really comment intelligently. It's like a teenager talking about the best player in whatever sport they love - they don't know all of the greats who came before the current stars, so their comparisons are skewed.

---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 12:31 PM ----------

You do know that Scholo and Strath were 10 man raids before they were 5 mans correct.

yes, sadly I started WoW late (about 3 months before TBC) so by the time I was at their level they were 5 mans.

[Ferocity]

I started in early TBC, but always liked classic dungeons - for their layout and environment. I came from games like Might and Magic and such, so having elaborated dungeons was taken as granted. Rewardwise, classic dungeons were not so good though.

TBC is where 5-men started to go wrong direction tbh. Dungeons aren't only about boss' mechanics or challenging trash, layout plays a huge role here. And almost every 5-men since TBC onwards had tunnel'ish layout. MoP is worst offender as it barely has any original 5-men at all.

Edit: Where are classic dungeons in this poll? O.o

[clevin]

Because this is a poll on HEROIC eras ? Vanilla wow didn't have heroics. Why is this a recurring question in this forum ? Basic reading skill required.

No it's not. The thread title is "What was the greatest 5-man era of WoW?". The poll creator obviously started after heroics were introduced and the options are all about heroics, but smoe of the vanilla 5 mans were awesome even though they weren't 'heroic'.

[kritisk]

I figured TBC heroics would be #1 and they are. I don't agree really. They were okay but they were incredibly tedious. Tedium isn't "great" to me. There were some good moments but they didn't have really great replay value and while the boss fights were generally fun and varied, the sheer amount of trash and length of the dungeons was just not "fun" to many people. It wasn't about difficulty, it was about tedium. The original Cata heroics were more difficult and less forgiving.

There have been periods of heroics in each expansion I've enjoyed. (Barring MoP which has changed this idea, challenge modes are far more difficult to master than any heroics ever were.) BC benefits from the very real psychological benefit of humans remembering positive things more clearly than negative things. Wrath had some fun ones, especially at the end. The interaction with NPCs was quite new and fun. Cata's original heroics were difficult and very fun for a while. They maintained a fairly good replay value as well.

As for the "greatest era" of 5 mans? For me, Vanilla will always be that simply because it was all new and it was more difficult because it wasn't so easy to just power through by out-gearing at first. The challenge modes of MoP are much more like that.

[fangless]

Wrath had Halls of Reflection, which was pretty rough if your tank was sub-par and your healer wasn't awake.

Occulus wasn't bad, but you had to explain to people how to play as a dragon instead of pressing random DPS buttons. Other than that, Wrath didn't really push too many boundaries.

I started in early TBC, but always liked classic dungeons - for their layout and environment. I came from games like Might and Magic and such, so having elaborated dungeons was taken as granted. Rewardwise, classic dungeons were not so good though.

TBC is where 5-men started to go wrong direction tbh. Dungeons aren't only about boss' mechanics or challenging trash, layout plays a huge role here. And almost every 5-men since TBC onwards had tunnel'ish layout. MoP is worst offender as it barely has any original 5-men at all.

Stuff like BRD I always found fascinating, sort of a make your own adventure. A place where the group could just get lost in, and do whatever.

TBC was definitely the start of more tunnel-esque dungeons, but we haven't really gone anywhere to improve that since then :P

I figured TBC heroics would be #1 and they are. I don't agree really. They were okay but they were incredibly tedious. Tedium isn't "great" to me. There were some good moments but they didn't have really great replay value and while the boss fights were generally fun and varied, the sheer amount of trash and length of the dungeons was just not "fun" to many people. It wasn't about difficulty, it was about tedium. The original Cata heroics were more difficult and less forgiving.

Some TBC bosses were actually pretty gross. Like the 2nd boss in Mechannar, trying to coordinate the +/- debuffs. The trash was definitely more of a beat-your-face in type, but it was just more engaging. You could actually wipe. Things mattered. I don't get why anyone wants stuff that just falls over, why is it even in the instance x:

[Dasani]

I'm usually not the type to sing praises for vanilla because there were a lot of things that were greatly improved on since then.

However, I do feel the dungeons in vanilla were some of the best dungeons. They were huge dungeons with TONS of bosses. Places like BRD to this day most people in this game can't navigate their way around it because it's so big and even those who clear it these days and know their way to the emperor really don't know all the other parts of the dungeon that exists that no one ever goes to anymore because theres really no reason to now.

I think that kind of design is best for dungeons personally. it should be huge with tons of mobs and tons of bosses. Make it feel like an adventure, like a real dungeon. Nowadays you get 3-4 bosses per dungeon and they are separated by just a couple of pulls of trash each and that's it. They are all so tiny, so streamlined so they can be ran over and over and over simply to be farmed for stupid things like valor and justice points. I much prefered having a dozen quests and going into one of those big sprawling dungeons with a group and taking your time to get through it all, I found it much more fun. It was almost like raiding but with a 5-man and of course much easier.

However blizzard's new idea for dungeon design is make them short and with no turns at all so you cant get lost because people that play these days are stupid and incapable of learning. In BRD, as soon as you step foot in the dungeon you can go in multiple directions and they all lead to different places. They even went back and ruined dungeons like stratholme converting them into two separate dungeons that aren't even connected to each other anymore, and destroying half of the sunken temple as well. New players will never be able to explore the depths there anymore, hell you can't even explore the area outside the dungeon anymore, they took all that out too, you basically go down the steps and theres the instance portal.

I like my dungeons like i like my raids, big and with a lot of bosses. This new streamlined simplistic design feels too easy, childish, and boring to me. It's been getting worse every expansion.

[Ealyssa]

MOP challenge mode, by far the most interesting 5man content ever made.

Sad for biased poll...

[ThrashMetalFtw]

TBC HCs were the best, and yes, I'm playing TBC on "Blizzlike" private server now (aswell as retail MoP), so it's not nostalgia speaking.

Both WotLK and Cata HCs were good at launch, and I must admit that the WotLK ones only got so faceroll because of overgearing them so fucking hard (from a Healer perspective many of them were harder than all of the TBC HCs with shit gear). Cata ones became shit when they got nerfed into oblivion. MoP didn't have HCs, only normal modes, could probably have been done with the entire grp going in completely naked.

[fangless]

I'm usually not the type to sing praises for vanilla because there were a lot of things that were greatly improved on since then.

However, I do feel the dungeons in vanilla were some of the best dungeons. They were huge dungeons with TONS of bosses. Places like BRD to this day most people in this game can't navigate their way around it because it's so big and even those who clear it these days and know their way to the emperor really don't know all the other parts of the dungeon that exists that no one ever goes to anymore because theres really no reason to now.

I think that kind of design is best for dungeons personally. it should be huge with tons of mobs and tons of bosses. Make it feel like an adventure, like a real dungeon. Nowadays you get 3-4 bosses per dungeon and they are separated by just a couple of pulls of trash each and that's it. They are all so tiny, so streamlined so they can be ran over and over and over simply to be farmed for stupid things like valor and justice points. I much prefered having a dozen quests and going into one of those big sprawling dungeons with a group and taking your time to get through it all, I found it much more fun. It was almost like raiding but with a 5-man and of course much easier.

However blizzard's new idea for dungeon design is make them short and with no turns at all so you cant get lost because people that play these days are stupid and incapable of learning. In BRD, as soon as you step foot in the dungeon you can go in multiple directions and they all lead to different places. They even went back and ruined dungeons like stratholme converting them into two separate dungeons that aren't even connected to each other anymore, and destroying half of the sunken temple as well. New players will never be able to explore the depths there anymore, hell you can't even explore the area outside the dungeon anymore, they took all that out too, you basically go down the steps and theres the instance portal.

I like my dungeons like i like my raids, big and with a lot of bosses. This new streamlined simplistic design feels too easy, childish, and boring to me. It's been getting worse every expansion.

/signed

Coming from someone that used to play Ultima Online, having big dungeons with all sorts of misc places to go and random things to do for no reason other than why not, is awesome :P

They have so many players in this game, why do they just make raids-raids-raids. Make some really large dungeons with all sorts of flavor design choices. Every path doesn't have to go to a boss.

[clevin]

...Like the 2nd boss in Mechannar, trying to coordinate the +/- debuffs. The trash was definitely more of a beat-your-face in type, but it was just more engaging. You could actually wipe. Things mattered. I don't get why anyone wants stuff that just falls over, why is it even in the instance x:

Mech is a good example of a dungeon that wasnt too hard but that did reward skilled play and where DPS classes could do more than spam spells. For example, a friend I used to run it with was a warlock and you could enslave one of the large demons at the top of the first ramp. Doing that not only meant he wasn't hitting your group, you could use him against the mobs. Handling the +/- debuff was fun too in that it required some skill and communication.

There are good parts to LK, Cata and even MoP dungeons, esp in their visual design and flavor, but since LK mostly people just need to do their primary role. DPS just DPSes. Controlling mobs? pfft, no need. Things like Mind Soothe on a priest to reduce aggro and let your group sneak by? Don't be silly, just kill it. Same for a rogue Sap, etc. Simplifying the mechanics made them easier and more forgiving of people who didn't know their class as well, but it removed complexity that rewarded the people who DID know their class, especially the optional abilities.

[tiporispit]

The bolded part just makes you a douche. Didn't read anything beyond that.

Yeah, it's Wrath Babies, not LK Babies.

[clevin]

Yeah, it's Wrath Babies, not LK Babies.

I feel SO BAD now...

[Sturmbringe]

Vanilla 5 mans.

Stratholme, Scholomance, Dire Maul.

Also loved Zul Farraq, Maraudon, Wailing Caverns, Blackfathom Deeps