"Players rarely argue for less convenience." - Ghostcrawler

[xanzul]

This is right and they took it even further this expansion. They wiped out the social and lower tier guilds. With those going many servers went as well. Now you got ghost town servers and only a handful of servers with anything close to a healthy raiding community. If you were to remove lfr, what would you have those people that are doing it now do? No new five mans, raids tuned tighter then ever means not a whole lot to do without lfr for a vast majority of the players.

Players are responsible for building and maintaining their communities, not Blizzard.

[Flaks]

I would argue that it is Blizzard giving players conveniences that has ended them up in this sub decline.

With the amount of conveniences we have right now, the content that keeps players playing for long periods of time (which is tedious by definition) becomes obsolete/barely played at all while everyone jumps on the convenient content, finishes it and leaves. Blizzard is doing it to themselves and seem to be enjoying every moment because they're more than making up the loss of subs through their pet shop.

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Players are responsible for building and maintaining their communities, not Blizzard.

Blizzard is responsible for catering towards specific playstyles over others. They have catered towards individual play over working together time and time again. It is very much Blizzard's fault for the way the community is today.

[xanzul]

"Special Snowflake" is equivalent of saying "YOU THINK YOU'RE BETTER THAN ME?"

Like a ghetto neighborhood where kids who try to acquire an education are harassed for it.

Have you even read this thread? At all? Most of the wannabe hardcores have done nothing but insults others for daring play "their" game and blame them for every change they don't like. Special snowflake absolutely is a valid term to be used here.

[MoanaLisa]

I would argue that it is Blizzard giving players conveniences that has ended them up in this sub decline.

I would argue that complicated things like population shifts in a mass-market entertainment product happen for a wide variety of reasons. Assigning effects like this to single causes is a very incomplete and most-of-the-time quite incorrect analysis and that people should know better.

[Seefer]

in fact there is a blue post noting that ultimately, most player will want everything with the minimum effort, and it is the game designer's responsibility, not the players, to decide what players should have to do to receive rewards, and how players should interact with the game world.

Yeah well unfortunately Blizzard left behind the ways of "This is how we do things, like it or not, this is how we want the game" to giving players every damn thing they want to make the game even easier or streamlined and thus losing subs.

[Ealyssa]

2) You can't put the genie back in the bottle, what is done is done, kinda like flying mounts.

That's quite wrong. Remember mass summon ? It was too good for the game according to GC, they deleted it.

Something as big as flying mount obviously can't realy be taken out. But blizzard showed us with thunder isle and timeless isl in 5.4 that it isn't something impossible to circumvent (and imo it's the right thing to do. I love flying mount, and don't want it out. But I also like flyghtless zone like thunder isle. Best of both world)

[orioxez]

This has to be the most infuriating tweet I have ever seen from Ghostcrawler

Either the community managers are doing an atrocious job, or the designers are pretending complaints don't exist

I mean, players have been complaining about WoW being more and more casual-friendly since WoTLK, complaining about its accessibility and convenience. This story really begins with the implementation of LFD towards the end of WOTLK, then flying mounts in cataclysm, and finally LFR. Dozens of LFR threads are made weekly, how come players rarely argue for less convenience?

nope, they have been complaining since classic wow. perhaps you werent there when they made rank 14 gear available to everyone in 2.0 or somewhere around there. the people that spent 14 hours a day grinding bgs with a hardcore group for ONE person a week to get weapons and it was given away to everyone, and that was just the start.

[xanzul]

Conflict makes things interesting ? We need people being Murdered, Raped, Beaten because of prejudice, else the world would be a boring place! No, I would disgaree 100%, we don't need conflict to have interesting lives. You'll probably start splitting hairs and say that me liking Vanilla and you liking Chocolate ice cream is a"form of conflict" We can be different and have different opinions, without the need for prejudice and conflict. People who thrive on conflict, have issues. Let's not make them the gold standard of humanity.

The very fact someone is trying to compare being called a special snowflake to rape pretty much proves what I have been saying about the vocal minority here. Every single last one of you has completely lost touch with reality.

[Seefer]

The very fact someone is trying to compare being called a special snowflake to rape pretty much proves what I have been saying about the vocal minority here. Every single last one of you has completely lost touch with reality.

I don't compare it to anything like that and I prefer BC and think LFR is a horrible thing.........what next?

Personally I find people who want everything easy have lost touch with reality, yes it's a game but games have to have challenge to them or else they are boring, and sadly the challenge in this game is going out the window.

[Manhands]

Internet is very poor for impressions on how many people actually complain. In practice you can generally apply the 20/80 rule:
- 20% of the gamers use the forums and 80% just plays the game.
- Of the 20% forum users 20% tends to be very vocal and complain where 80% simply reads the forums.

Since 20% of 20% screams as if they are 80% of the community it often gives the false impression that their opinion is the general opinion. Sadly for them it is not. 80% simply don't care enough and play the game or move on without ever setting foot on the forums.

I like this, but 80/20 seems completely arbitrary. Is there a reason for that number?

[Syran]

I'll never understand why people describe Cataclysm as The Great Difficult Era. It wasn't. The heroics were just as easy as WotLK's. Cataclysm's downfall was Blizzard's approach of resting on it's laurels and the subsequent lack of content, not it's supposed (nonexistent) difficulty.
.

Cataclysm's heroics, while nowhere near TBC heroics were objectively harder than WoTLK heroics (at release), as Blizzard wanted to return some of the difficulty back into the 5 mans (starting with 3.3 ICC heroics, which were a step up from your other heroics at time).

The problem is that there was no alternative and everyone was funneled into the same content via LFD, which was a disaster. And yes, clearing Grim Batol with a bunch of randoms who were used to places like Gundrak and Violet hold could be frustrating.
The 10 man normal raid format was also much more challenging than its counterpart in WoTLK too, making it hard for casual and less skilled players to progress.

Common misconception waved around this place is that Blizzard redid TBC with Cata, things couldn't be farther from truth. TBC had normal mode level 70 dungeons which awarded the same loot as heroics, save 1 purple and epic gems, thus making the gearing up process significantly easier and more accessible for masses. It also had Karazhan, which hit the sweet spot in terms of accesibility and difficulty for pretty much everyone.

[xanzul]

Actually, I don't blame casuals for my ills. That's another prejudiced assumption you're making. I'm also not defending anger, hate, or people who spew bullshit. I'm defending normal people from being labeled and disregarded based on a prejudice. I can see you're not really out to have a rational discussion but rather to show your dislike for the OP. Carry on, I'll leave you to your fun.

Stop back peddling. You don't get to blame the game being less "hardcore" on the demands of casuals and then turn around and say you aren't blaming casuals. I'm sorry but the attitude of those like you is disgusting and divisive and a huge contributing factor to why some players are being driven out of the game. You may not like the term "special snowflake" but it accurately describes the attitude and mentality of those who derive enjoyment out of excluding others from parts of the game.

[Seefer]

Stop back peddling. You don't get to blame the game being less "hardcore" on the demands of casuals and then turn around and say you aren't blaming casuals. I'm sorry but the attitude of those like you is disgusting and divisive and a huge contributing factor to why some players are being driven out of the game. You may not like the term "special snowflake" but it accurately describes the attitude and mentality of those who derive enjoyment out of excluding others from parts of the game.

Actually it isn't US excluding people it is their SKILL and their being satisfied with not improving adding on their excuse making as to why they can't (see refuse) to improve or do normal raiding.

[GoldNSilence]

World of Warcraft has always been a casual MMO. To say that anyone who runs heroic raids and looks down upon everyone else is in denial. That's like telling someone you're hardcore at video games because you dedicate half your day reaching an all time high Angry Birds score. Now that everyone gets to see the final bosses of each expac you don't feel special anymore? Please. You never were special to begin with.

[xanzul]

They weren't trying something new, they listened to that vocal minority that demands harder content but always finds excuses not to pursue it.

I think sometimes Blizzard makes certain decisions to show players that getting what they ask for isn't always a good thing. Look at the absolute chaos that resulted from cheaper paid transfers and more recently when Blizzard allowed some free character migrations from high pop realms to medium pop realms. I think Blizzard knew full well what the consequences would be and were fine with taking a hit if it means quelling some of the mindless QQ.

[Seefer]

World of Warcraft has always been a casual MMO. To say that anyone who runs heroic raids and looks down upon everyone else is in denial. That's like telling someone you're hardcore at video games because you dedicate half your day reaching an all time high Angry Birds score. Now that everyone gets to see the final bosses of each expac you don't feel special anymore? Please. You never were special to begin with.

So people who play games to get fame and money are not special? Man someone better tell Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Derek Jeter, and any other sports player, as well as Swifty who gets paid to play this game, any chess player who wins big, poker players etc........cuz hey they are all just games.

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I think sometimes Blizzard makes certain decisions to show players that getting what they ask for isn't always a good thing. Look at the absolute chaos that resulted from cheaper paid transfers and more recently when Blizzard allowed some free character migrations from high pop realms to medium pop realms. I think Blizzard knew full well what the consequences would be and were fine with taking a hit if it means quelling some of the mindless QQ.

Honestly I don't think Blizzard thinks of ANY consequences, they just say "HEY! This sounds GREAT!" and do it.

[xanzul]

Have u got evidence that its the minority and not the majority?

In my very long Wow forum use the subject with the most complaint threads ever in the history of Wow has been LFR. No other issue in Wow has ever generated such a massive amount of forum pages.

Now, at the very least that shows LFR isnt functioning as well as it could be ingame and it needs some fixing/rebalancing. At the very worst its a total disaster.

What that doesnt tell us is that everthings fine and dandy.

The very fact LFR is still in game and Blizzard is continuing to add to it is proof positive that it is a minority of players that want it gone. Blizzard doesn't make a profit from pissing off the majority of their customers so no, they aren't going to mindlessly do things that alienate their paying customers. LFR is here to stay and you people need to stop being so god damn butthurt over what others are doing.

[Manhands]

Actually it isn't US excluding people it is their SKILL and their being satisfied with not improving adding on their excuse making as to why they can't (see refuse) to improve or do normal raiding.

Where does it say in the ToS that players need to continue improving in order to play WoW? Who made up this rule that people need to keep getting better, as if their skill in WoW was somehow important? What about someone who plays WoW occasionally? What if the group that plays infrequently was actually the majority? Should there not be features that appeal to them?

Meanwhile, raiding keeps increasing in difficulty for those who are getting better. Each tier, the progression race is alive and well. I think the devs are striking a decent balance between the types of people who play.

[xanzul]

Their "number crunchers" are horrible then. They have lost 30% of the total subs in ~3 1/2 years. You can't seriously believe that in those 3 1/2 years someone hasn't said, "Hey we were doing well in TBC/Wrath, maybe we should try that style again?" It is said every 10 minutes on the forums and yet, we have seen NOTHING close to either one of those. How long does it have to go bleeding subs before these people give it a try again? What has to happen to them before they are willing to change it back? What's the worst that can happen at this stage, another mil or two down in 3 months? We'll see what this next Q report brings but I assume it's going to be that bad. Since 1.3 million left with a brand new instance out... I can't see it going well for this instance on the back end.

Wow hit market saturation years ago and the reason subscriptions kept going up wasn't because the game was the best of the best epitome of gaming forever and always but because there was a steady flow of new people replacing the ones leaving. If this game was so awesome during vanilla/TBC why have over 20 million people quit playing? You do realize more people have quit the game than ever played it concurrently right? There has always been significant subscription churn and it wasn't some new thing created by the ineptness of Blizzard, it was always there.

[Lord Blackmore]

In my very long Wow forum use the subject with the most complaint threads ever in the history of Wow has been LFR. No other issue in Wow has ever generated such a massive amount of forum pages.

Well there ya go: forum pages.

Forums are a poor indicator of well, mostly anything. Most players don't even read forums, much less post on them. In addition, it tends to be the more dedicated players who frequent forums, so it ends up being a small subset of the total number of players who end up posting on forums.

It's reasonable conclusion to say that there is a vocal minority of complainers when it comes to LFR complaints.