Current issues with Death Knights overall.

**Senathor** · 2013-07-26, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by scabobos

If DKs aren't completely overhauled in next xpac I will be shocked.

Do you understand the weight of that implication? A complete overhaul could potentially be the equivalent of designing a new class. Are you sure you're not fine with just a few changes here and there? Anyway it's a controversial matter obviously. From a PvP perspective I think we need either something to get us out of roots or preferably Death's Advance baseline (possibly without the on-use speed increase). Frost might require a few more changes in order to make it fun I suppose. I just hate the fact that DK's feel so fragile in PvP right now without any good defesnives. I don't mean to insult PvE players but wouldn't a simple damage increase make everything fine for you in raiding? In addition to that I also think our talent tree could use some minor changes here and there. And on a selfish note I wish the AoE grip nerf would be reverted.

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Originally Posted by Riven

Glyph of Icebound Bulwark
Icebound Fortitude now provides an extra 30% damage reduction, but the cooldown is extended by 2 minutes.

Potential?

No the CD would be way too long in PvP.

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Originally Posted by Bantokar

I think we need some survivability in PvP. We used to have massive burst as our niche, but now lots of classes can burst like a dk but we have crap survival compared to everyone else.

We never had massive burst, we had consistent damage (which we still do as UH) but as you said we don't have the survivability nor mobility to utilize it.

**JGWentworth** · 2013-07-26, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by Riven

Glyph of Icebound Bulwark
Icebound Fortitude now provides an extra 30% damage reduction, but the cooldown is extended by 2 minutes.

Potential?

It's too long for PvE too in my opinion. 5 minutes? Yikes

**DarthMetatron** · 2013-07-26, 06:59 PM

Maybe if we make a consolidated thread of all the other consolidated DK threads the devs would know which one to reply to! /cheeky

That being said, I've done extensive work to show the scaling problems of Frost's secondary stats in the primary PTR DK thread and I'm not going to repeat them in this thread or the duplicate of this thread on the WoW forums.

BUT the fact is that you can re-gem/re-forge to whatever offensive stat you want and it will make less than a 1K DPS difference on realism sims for both 2H and DW. This is because any of the secondary stats are almost just as horrible as the next to the point where it makes almost no difference at all.

Aside from weapons and gimmicks (set bonuses and trinkets) we're pretty flat all the way to 6.0...

Is that a bird or a plane? No it's all the other DPS classes shooting up as they get gear!

**JGWentworth** · 2013-07-26, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by DarthMetatron

Maybe if we make a consolidated thread of all the other consolidated DK threads the devs would know which one to reply to! /cheeky

Dont think we get much dev action on these forums

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Originally Posted by DarthMetatron

Maybe if we make a consolidated thread of all the other consolidated DK threads the devs would know which one to reply to! /cheeky

That being said, I've done extensive work to show the scaling problems of Frost's secondary stats in the primary PTR DK thread and I'm not going to repeat them in this thread or the duplicate of this thread on the WoW forums.

BUT the fact is that you can re-gem/re-forge to whatever offensive stat you want and it will make less than a 1K DPS difference on realism sims for both 2H and DW. This is because any of the secondary stats are almost just as horrible as the next to the point where it makes almost no difference at all.

Aside from weapons and gimmicks (set bonuses and trinkets) we're pretty flat all the way to 6.0...

Is that a bird or a plane? No it's all the other DPS classes shooting up as they get gear!

Frost is the Arms/Sub/Marks/Arcane of our class - and I think that you will find that as long as both of our specs aren't lagging significantly behind that it's not going to see much love

**DarthMetatron** · 2013-07-26, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by Hiboyslol

Dont think we get much dev action on these forums

Referring to the duplicate post to this one and the other consolidated DK threads on the PTR forum.

**potatolover** · 2013-07-26, 08:13 PM

Now that everyone designs their own talent trees, I wanted to give it a go. Tell me what you think!

ht tp: // mop-talent-grid-maker.appspot .c om/talentgridmaker?theAction=view&gridId=665001 (Remove the spaces, first post here.)

Included some other proposed changes to the class in the description section, as well as the reasoning behind the modifications.

**valliant13** · 2013-07-26, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by Hiboyslol

Dont think we get much dev action on these forums

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Frost is the Arms/Sub/Marks/Arcane of our class - and I think that you will find that as long as both of our specs aren't lagging significantly behind that it's not going to see much love

But arcane is actually a top performing spec.....(just thought id throw that jab in there)

**Riven** · 2013-07-27, 01:11 AM

On phone right now, if you can post the threads that you've made on the PTR forums ill add them all into the original Consolidated thread

Also no, simple numbers changing is too little at this point, there's vital issues with the way our stats/talents work that need to change or we'll continue to be at the bottom.

**JGWentworth** · 2013-07-27, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by valliant13

But arcane is actually a top performing spec.....(just thought id throw that jab in there)

If they can stand still it is which I don't believe many fights lend to that

**valliant13** · 2013-07-27, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by Hiboyslol

If they can stand still it is which I don't believe many fights lend to that

They are top 5 dps on 9/13 fights.

**Beefkow** · 2013-07-27, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by Wrien

What do you think of this?

http://mop-talent-grid-maker.appspot...&gridId=663001

Responded pretty late, but i thumbs up on the idea 100%, if they EVER bring back desecration, i will FREAK OUT, however you need to make desecration proc from the spec's main abilities such as SS/FS/HS but give the desecration effect a CD like 5 sec? so that way there won't be countless puddles.

However, plague leech should just be removed, its a stupid ability (next to live death siphon), honestly you guys have great imagination about dks but blizzard doesn't give a crap anymore, we haven't received alot of attention since towards the end of cata.

We actually get a dmg tier??? ooo i thought every class was supposed to have a *damage" tier.

**Riven** · 2013-07-28, 03:14 AM

Figured i'd make one of those talent grids to better show the ideas I have. These are based on the changes from http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9555305541

http://mop-talent-grid-maker.appspot...&gridId=669001

Note: Regenerative Magic and Breath of Corruption are just random things I thought of on the spot, not expecting them to be balanced etc and would be more of placeholders.

**valliant13** · 2013-07-28, 03:18 AM

So, I don't know if anyone checked the thread titled so that's why unholy is better than frost. If you haven't I suggest you do. If what they are talking about in that thread in fact is a bug, then they will have no choice but to buff both specs as that will severely neuter unholy to frost bad.

**Skarssen** · 2013-07-28, 12:48 PM

Well whenever one talent clearly outperforms another you know what happens, so I would almost certainly expect a "fix" so both specs can enjoy being at the bottom.

Deleted · 2013-07-28, 09:04 PM

Well everyone else seems to be doing these, so I dug up an old one I made a while ago and tweaked it. Don't really do much PvP, so the PvP changes are few and probably rubbish.

http://mop-talent-grid-maker.appspot...&gridId=137001

I just wish we had a tier of damage talents (Unless you count the Rune Regen one), every other class has at least one, most even have two.

**Nyaldee** · 2013-07-29, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by Kiru

Don't really do much PvP, so the PvP changes are few and probably rubbish.

Some're great actually, judging by last PTR build changes to pet abilities costs we'll be finally able to use them properly without retarded amount of macroses needed. Plague leech change will improve our preassure a lot and combined with affli changes unholy/affli/rsham will be easilly one of the best setups around (tbh it's already strong enough). Unholy/surv/hpal will be extremply powerfull too since surv spread dmg is no joke either and pala with fear will push setups cc overboard.

Also i feel that there's no fixing for arena frost right now - as unholy you don't get punished for sitting in blood presence nearly as much as frost and tbh it's not the most often ocasion when i run around in unholy. I'm not even mentioning that any presence exept blood is asking for fast switch (you can cd out first time though) or be trained till you switch to blood and in blood presence unholy is far superior to frost. Till that problem is fixed (unlikely) or over survivability improves enough to stay in dps presence (unlikely) frost will be completly inferior in arena setting.

After this changes only ability i'll have problems with is darksim since quite often it won't copy spell when used during cast.

General issues i've with class:
1) Feeling cheated with new abilities during past couple expansions: darksim is a good idea but sometimes it simply doesn't work as i said earlier and soul reaper is simply delayed execute undeserving the spot of a single new ability we got in mop.
2) Masteries - seriously unholy and frost masteries are essentially the same and they've no cool interactions with abilities. Looking at SP mastery where extra dot tick can interact with 2 talents increasing amount of procs makes me jealous. Seriously as unholy i would pick a chance to summon some retarded little ghoul similar to demonology lock imps over X% shadow damage increase. No fun factor with masteris is a big letdown.

**DarthMetatron** · 2013-07-29, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by Riven

On phone right now, if you can post the threads that you've made on the PTR forums ill add them all into the original Consolidated thread

Also no, simple numbers changing is too little at this point, there's vital issues with the way our stats/talents work that need to change or we'll continue to be at the bottom.

Lots of work done here:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...3502347?page=1

**Omertocracy** · 2013-07-29, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by Nyaldee

2) Masteries - seriously unholy and frost masteries are essentially the same and they've no cool interactions with abilities. Looking at SP mastery where extra dot tick can interact with 2 talents increasing amount of procs makes me jealous. Seriously as unholy i would pick a chance to summon some retarded little ghoul similar to demonology lock imps over X% shadow damage increase. No fun factor with masteris is a big letdown.

As I was passing out last night/this morning I had an Idea for Masteries. These might not be very good ideas, as I was nearly delirious at the time, but I still feel they are at least worth mentioning.

Frost: Your Killing Machine and Rime effects cause their ability to deal x% more damage when consumed.
Unholy: Increases damage by your pets, guardians, minions, etc. by x%. Also increases the duration of Unholy Frenzy by x%. (base duration lowered to balance)

**Beefkow** · 2013-07-29, 10:58 PM