Is it time to remove Hit & Expertise requirements?

[slime]

To be honest with you - the way this game is going you are probably right, 4 stats should be it's cap.

[Stir]

Slow down there dude. This could be easily sorted by adding a static +5% to hit all targets of the same level as you, we have that already on gear, so the stat would still be important on gear as above the 5% you are going to be getting more chances to not be hit.

No; it could not easily be sorted, since the base system conflicts with this. You'd need to band-aid this in, and that threatens the integrity of the base system.

What the OP means is why keep hit/expertise on PvE gear. It is presumed that we are all going to be hit capped whenever we are simmed and without hitcapping we are instantly nerfed a crap load.

The solution is to normalize levels. This removes avoidance from the game. Or are you really suggesting that mobs should run on a different template system than players?

Hell I'd be happy is they kept hit and expertise on PvP gear but removed it for PvE gear. Would help to differentiate the gears better as the stats would be wasted, or they could make them tied to PvP power so the only time it factors in is in PvP.

Only possible if you want to normalize levels, or create a different template system for non-players. The first removes tanks (as we know them), and the second causes an immense schism in gameplay. Either way, the system would need to be reworked from the ground up.

The reason WHY the removal of hit/expertise is bad is not because of the stats themselves. The stats are a symptom of a problem within the base system. Removal of the stats cause those integral problems to surface and do harm to your playing experience. It's better to have a solution to a problem that you might find boring than to be frustrated by the problems to the point of RNG fully determining the outcome of an arena battle or a raid, and defenders either being crap, or being godmode, in both PvE and PvP.

[Baracuda]

yay lets make game more easier for 12 years kids to handle and stats wise boring

Hit rating and expertise aren't fun nor hard. This is like saying you want to be a unique snowflake, you don't want it because you enjoy it, you want it because it makes you feel better than those who don't.

No; this is not a good idea at all.
There's two solutions you can be going for:
-No hit+exp stats at all, resulting in a vastly increased amount of misses, dodges and parries in PvP/PvE (and consequently whine, because that big hitter you desperately needed missed due to RNG boohoo, bad game blizz!)
-Normalize levels. This means that you'll always deal your full damage to everything, never have a chance to miss anything, and tanks and agility classes will inevitably lose out on a very important defense: Avoidance. That's right, by going this route, avoidance will be completely removed from the game, which turns people into 'stand there and bear it' characters. Furthermore, this means that absorb mechanisms such as shield blocks and bubbles of all kinds need to be buffed to the point of infallibility, or fall short. Which means that your tanks will either become mana sponges to a point of removing their purpose from the game, or they will become pretty much immortal.

Basically: No. It's a really, really bad idea.

Making everyone hit and expertise capped will cause avoidance to be removed? Because serious player are that already and avoidance is still here.

And while we're on it I think avoidance should be severely reduced in PvP. A 10% cap on parry(without defensive CDs on) and a fair cap on dodge(not sure here).

[ophion1990]

I honestly think the caps are annoying, on the other hand if not for hit/expertise everyone would just go all out with reforging to their best secondary stat. If it's haste and they cap it, go for second best stat... It'd make stats pretty bland, and they're already pretty bland since primary stats are often so powerful.

[Deleted]

Stop complaining.
Blizz has to NOT remove stuff that makes the game harder.
I wish you still had to skill up your weapons, shame that got thrown out of the window.
KEEP THE GAME HARD BLIZZ!
Jk too late, about 2 expacs.

[Baracuda]

I honestly think the caps are annoying, on the other hand if not for hit/expertise everyone would just go all out with reforging to their best secondary stat. If it's haste and they cap it, go for second best stat... It'd make stats pretty bland, and they're already pretty bland since primary stats are often so powerful.

Without hit/exp maybe they can start focusing on balacing critical/mastery/haste/primary to be roughly equal?

Stop complaining.
Blizz has to NOT remove stuff that makes the game harder.
I wish you still had to skill up your weapons, shame that got thrown out of the window.
KEEP THE GAME HARD BLIZZ!
Jk too late, about 2 expacs.

Hard to tell if you're serious or not. I probably wouldn't be playing if weapon skills were still in the game.

[dd614]

Hit and expertise do virtually the same thing in theory, so why not just amalgamate them into one stat? Hit/Crit/Haste/Mastery should be enough.

[Stir]

Making everyone hit and expertise capped will cause avoidance to be removed? Because serious player are that already and avoidance is still here.

No; making everyone hit and expertise capped (by granting everyone a flat hit/expertise bonus) will cause additional problems in encounter creation because of item level values. But those things should apply to mobs as well, so it will cause avoidance to take a big hit in item value.
I'm talking about the normalization of character levels.

Basically, what hit/expertise do is essentially curb player power while at the same time maintaining the base game system (five-rank increases for an opposed 1% gain). This five-rank system is fundamental to miss/dodge/parry as well, however.

[zoomgpally]

yay lets make game more easier for 12 years kids to handle and stats wise boring

they can already handle it

Problem with hit/expertise is at low gear you may not get capped at all, even gemming and reforging for it
As soon as you hit like 500 ilvl, you will be way over the cap, and there is nothing you can do about it

One of my guildies had 9.5% hit and 12% expertise at 490 ilvl, after reforging it all away

Id take a million secondary stats over 2 hardcapped ones that WILL go over cap and waste a ton of stat points

[Raiju]

I want defense and arpen back, personally.

[zoomgpally]

Yay! Lets simplify the game even more! I think that changes they made in Catacylsm were good, but to remove hit and expertise would just make everything way to simple.

do you really like losing 2-3000 rating to over hit/exp cap when you cant do anything about it(except getting items without either, but thats just rng)

- - - Updated - - -

I want defense and arpen back, personally.

I agree, because they didnt have a hard cap(that you could reach)

[reef]

i think that spell hit should be changed for leveling purposes. change it so the hit rating gap is lower for hitting targets of the same level or 1 level higher and have a higher gap between 2 and 3 levels higher. overall, the hit cap would still be the same at 15%, but less hit rating would be needed to hit targets that are around your level. the lowest level hit rating food is level 65 and hit rating enchants are few while leveling as well. its a bit easier for casters that convert spirit to hit, but not by much. missing is one of my biggest pet peeves.

[Kezotar]

yay lets make game more easier for 12 years kids to handle and stats wise boring

Because it is hard to go to "www.askmrrobot or w/e the page was called" and press "OPTIMIZE". That's really skilled, you should be awarded a medal or two for that.

[Deleted]

yay lets make game more easier for 12 years kids to handle and stats wise boring

How is it any difficult with hit and expertise? Download 1 addon, hit 1 button.. skill.

[Tarazet]

I think what they could do is remove it from epics as a whole and let US reforge/gem/enchant into the 2 stats. I say this because my shaman and monk are both waaaay over hit caps atm from all the hit rating on ToT gear, which is only made worse with valour upgrading. Wonder what will happen with hit and exp in T16

Yeah, I'd love to have a noob co-tank who is missing with 22.5% of his attacks because he didn't reforge anything. Or to find as a fresh 90 that I can't actually hit the caps even after spending a boatload of gold on Hit and Expertise gems and enchants plus reforging.

[Eazy]

I think this game is enough easy, but after seeing what Blizzard did in Cata and MoP I think we won't see hit&expertise rating in the next expansions.

Stop complaining.
Blizz has to NOT remove stuff that makes the game harder.
I wish you still had to skill up your weapons, shame that got thrown out of the window.
KEEP THE GAME HARD BLIZZ!
Jk too late, about 2 expacs.

Exactly.

To be honest with you - the way this game is going you are probably right, 4 stats should be it's cap.

Agree.

[Baracuda]

No; making everyone hit and expertise capped (by granting everyone a flat hit/expertise bonus) will cause additional problems in encounter creation because of item level values. But those things should apply to mobs as well, so it will cause avoidance to take a big hit in item value.
I'm talking about the normalization of character levels.

Basically, what hit/expertise do is essentially curb player power while at the same time maintaining the base game system (five-rank increases for an opposed 1% gain). This five-rank system is fundamental to miss/dodge/parry as well, however.

I'm sure Blizzard can create a solution...

I think this game is enough easy, but after seeing what Blizzard did in Cata and MoP I think we won't see hit&expertise rating in the next expansions.

The thing is: Hit rating and Expertise don't make the game hard because EVERYONE have them. The only ones who don't are the new players who won't understand why their damage sucks and get frustrated.

It's like the one talent everyone takes, either you remove it or you make it baseline.

[Shakari]

I welcome opinions that differ from my own, but the "slippery slope" argument does not really apply to this topic.

This is not about making the game easier, it is about making it more fun.

What your suggesting though achieves the opposite of "fun" for most people.

They have Homogenized the game enough without doing more

[Kisho]

Ye gods no. Hit and expertise are great and add complexity and depth while remaining simple to understand. They're brilliant game design and they should stay; otherwise gearing up would just be about stacking bigger numbers, no balance or finesse to it.

Keep hit and expertise, please.

[Ichifails]

Because it is hard to go to "www.askmrrobot or w/e the page was called" and press "OPTIMIZE". That's really skilled, you should be awarded a medal or two for that.

Seeing how Askmrrobot is a really shit optimizing tool, yes.
Trying to optimize your gear, to see if you will need a drop over someone else at a certain point during progression. Making temporary BiS lists, seeing what Gems/Enchants you need for a piece of loot(so you can do it on the spot and not waste time going back between bosses) and knowing what you will have to replace to make it an upgrade.
Yeah, that's fun to me. That's part of RPGs, the loot. "In nearly all MMORPGs, the development of the player's character is a primary goal."

Please explain to me how gradually reducing the number of stats that add depth and complexity is fun... If anything they should add more, more stats that impact your character and not only by changing their damage output but having a choice for another play style.