[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion Pt. 2

[Anetulan]

A three charge shield over time seems kind of strange, though not necessarily in a bad way. I could see this making it possible to keep both tanks shielded, though I'm wondering how the mana cost will effect this.

[PosPosPos]

You're just being silly. Have you seen how much healing the cloak is currently doing on PTR? It's definitely something that can be relied on. No you shouldn't be "relying" on it to heal the tank in a pinch, that would just be stupid. But you can rely on it to do a decent amount of healing if you're overhealing with EF hots.

Oh dear, here comes the ad hominem attacks.

I am just going to pretend you didn't say that and continue a civil discussion here.

I can count on the cloak doing some respectable amount of healing over the course of the fight. I just can't control where and when I want it to proc(say, together with HA during a burst phase).

It's the same argument with DP versus HA. I could drop half my spirit now if I switched to DP, my hps would increase significantly due to the increase of secondary stats. But I wouldn't have close to even the same control as I would with HA during a burst phase, i.e. the hps I actually NEED during a pinch.

A healer's worth isn't about his raw hps. A healer's worth is about whether he/she can put in the hps when NEEDED.

[Lumineux]

Oh dear, here comes the ad hominem attacks.

I am just going to pretend you didn't say that and continue a civil discussion here.

I can count on the cloak doing some respectable amount of healing over the course of the fight. I just can't control where and when I want it to proc(say, together with HA during a burst phase).

It's the same argument with DP versus HA. I could drop half my spirit now if I switched to DP, my hps would increase significantly due to the increase of secondary stats. But I wouldn't have close to even the same control as I would with HA during a burst phase, i.e. the hps I actually NEED during a pinch.

A healer's worth isn't about his raw hps. A healer's worth is about whether he/she can put in the hps when NEEDED.

I think you just took it personally, I wasn't attacking you at all and honestly I'm not even sure what I said that wasn't "civil" or might have been construed as offensive, but feel free to keep using random latin terms if you want.

You were saying overhealing is bad. I'm saying it's not bad if you have the cloak since all overhealing is redistributed to injured targets (and I believe it's a pretty far range) when it procs and it has a pretty decent proc rate. For that reason I believe there's no need to shorten the duration of EF for this current content patch while we have the cloak. Not only that but a few fights are being designed in which HoT healing shines. I hope that's clear enough.

P.S. Raw HPS does matter on fights at times.

[PosPosPos]

I think you just took it personally, I wasn't attacking you at all and honestly I'm not even sure what I said that wasn't "civil" or might have been construed as offensive, but feel free to keep using random latin terms if you want.

You were saying overhealing is bad. I'm say it's not bad if you have the cloak. For that reason I believe there's no need to shorten the duration of EF for this current content patch while we have the cloak. Not only that but a few fights are being designed in which HoT healing shines. I hope that's clear enough.

P.S. Raw HPS does matter on fights at times.

Calling people silly is nothing but an ad hominem attack.

An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an argument made personally against an opponent instead of against their argument.

I think taking a personal attack personally, is nothing but understandable and logical, no?

Well, unless you have a different definition of the term than, say everyone else on this planet.

Overhealing is indeed bad, compared to effective healing. The cloak helps mitigate a portion of that, but it doesn't stop EF from being unreliable when you get sniped left right and center.

P.S.
Sure, on a small majority of the fights, like Tortos, of which nobody honestly cares about because it's generally a joke to use situations like that to compare the viability of healers. Grasping at straws now, aren't we?

Anyway, given that the discussion has devolved into name slinging and thinly veiled insinuations at god-knows-what, I gracefully retreat to avoid provoking any more ill-will between the two of us.

Keep it on topic and avoid posts which solely exist to bicker. -Krekko

[Bythelights]

Except 99% of the people on this planet would not classify one word "silly" as an argument made personally against an opponent. He also gave his reasoning with it as well which qualifies it as an actual argument against yours according to you. If that is taken personally you are indeed a true idiot who I wouldn't take any holy pally advice from. You can not gracefully retreat after getting the last word in along with a snide and condescending post. To retreat with class and dignity you just let whatever they said last go and leave. Hopefully someone teaches you some lessons in humility maybe this does.

We need good holy pally advice on these forums. Logs numbers any statistics showing how we rank compared to other classes currently. I like hearing how people feel about the latest holy paladin changes blizz makes. Leave the bickering alone or go to the useless wow ptr forums for that.

Infracted. Don't insult other users. ~Fhi

[Deleted]

It would be more hps to run without any tier 45 talent than to pick SS if it would cost HP instead of mana.

Could you explain why please? In times of low damage prior to long pulsing aoe or whatever (think pre storm jinjokh, pre kazra council, pre p2 ra-den), would putting 35 sec ss shields on people not be preferable than well, I'm not sure what else you'd be doing other than building IH and banking HP (which can be kept up easily anyway)

[nightfalls]

We need good holy pally advice on these forums. Logs numbers any statistics showing how we rank compared to other classes currently. I like hearing how people feel about the latest holy paladin changes blizz makes. Leave the bickering alone or go to the useless wow ptr forums for that.

We'll need another round of 25m or Flexible (ideally actually the latter, since normal/heroic raid testing tends to revolve around figuring out and testing boss mechanics, not class mechanics) to really get a good gauge since the latest changes.

In a vacuum like I said earlier I wouldn't say we're outrageously terrible compared to 5.3, but that is not looking at the whole picture, which is us compared to other healing specs in a 25m (progression) raiding environment.

Until then it seems that we've run out of steam and there doesn't seem much to do but wait or bicker. I'll have updated spreadsheet information coming, I decided to remake another from scratch ideally to get it into a publicizing-ready format, after which I'll release it on GDocs.

[Deleted]

Could you explain why please? In times of low damage prior to long pulsing aoe or whatever (think pre storm jinjokh, pre kazra council, pre p2 ra-den), would putting 35 sec ss shields on people not be preferable than well, I'm not sure what else you'd be doing other than building IH and banking HP (which can be kept up easily anyway)

Because 1HP=145k healing if running non EF build and 200k for EF builds while SS is 280k healing if you assume 0% overheal, so not only does it slow down holy power generation because you need to use the global but it also consumes it. Over 1 min you would lose 1.45M healing just from globals +870k(or 1.2m EF) from spending HP on it and gain 1.68M so 1.45+0.87-1.68=640k less healing per min.

[PosPosPos]

Except 99% of the people on this planet would not classify one word "silly" as an argument made personally against an opponent. He also gave his reasoning with it as well which qualifies it as an actual argument against yours according to you. If that is taken personally you are indeed a true idiot who I wouldn't take any holy pally advice from. You can not gracefully retreat after getting the last word in along with a snide and condescending post. To retreat with class and dignity you just let whatever they said last go and leave. Hopefully someone teaches you some lessons in humility maybe this does.

We need good holy pally advice on these forums. Logs numbers any statistics showing how we rank compared to other classes currently. I like hearing how people feel about the latest holy paladin changes blizz makes. Leave the bickering alone or go to the useless wow ptr forums for that.

If I said you were stupid, then proceeded to support my argument with facts and etc, it doesn't change the fact that it's still a personal attack.

But I suppose you are already too prejudiced to judge things fairly, no?

I guess I learn something new everyday - you can sling names and insults so as long as you can put up a half-baked argument that falls apart at the slightest probing.

P.S. It's also ironic that the person white-knighting also proceeds to mask an obvious ad hominem attack as a valid argument.

Infracted. Don't derail the thread with pointless posts. ~Fhi

[nightfalls]

Except 99% of the people on this planet would not classify one word "silly" as an argument made personally against an opponent.

Agreed, but I think at this point given earlier thread locks and the fact that the b.net thread has gone to hell that we should just ignore (by this I mean there's also a forum ignore feature) posts from people who obviously don't contribute anything of meaning instead of feeding them.

On-topic: I haven't tried healer proving grounds since the update to them (when they got "easier") and since judgment mana and SS changes. Has anyone else?

[Sehzz]

This thread is for discussing PTR changes, not arguing over hurt feelings and getting the last word in. If you wish to post in that kind of thread, leave to the WoW PTR forums.

Back on topic....

Looking forward to the next round of Flex Raiding/25M to test our current numbers. I'll be staying with heavy mastery while testing out SS and EF builds. SS mastery builds seem strong for a few fights in SoO, but I'm worried about mana without SoI regen. Earlier in testing I was running about 13k spirit and doing decent (with EF) but I suspect significantly more may be needed to sustain SS + HR spam in SoO heroic progression.

On-topic: I haven't tried healer proving grounds since the update to them (when they got "easier") and since judgment mana and SS changes. Has anyone else?

I have, and I learned a few things from testing:

-SH to me feels very weak. It will be useful in a few niche 10man and 25m fights but the Judgment mana cost killed it's main draw: efficiency.
-SS + HR spam is EXTREMELY mana intensive. New DP + no more SoI regen means you will need to stack heavy spirit to maintain this in a heroic progression environment.

[Kyuuseishu]

If I said you were stupid, then proceeded to support my argument with facts and etc, it doesn't change the fact that it's still a personal attack.

But I suppose you are already too prejudiced to judge things fairly, no?

I guess I learn something new everyday - you can sling names and insults so as long as you can put up a half-baked argument that falls apart at the slightest probing.

P.S. It's also ironic that the person white-knighting also proceeds to mask an obvious ad hominem attack as a valid argument.

You aren't any help here, you either contribute to the discussion with something meaningful or stop posting altogether. Continuously spouting ad hominem in nearly every single post when anything that can be remotely taken as personally appears, heck its the main focus of the several previous posts. You remind me of someone, someone in the previous thread who like you started posting on a random new account and popped ad hominem in every single post they could, maybe you're the same person, twins maybe.

You haven't exactly posted a solid argument, yet you quickly depose others usually started with your favourite two words. People have different opinions on the cape, but the truth is, despite its random nature it is still giving off numbers and a comparison to crit? The only thing they have in common is their random nature, we avoid it because other stats are better than it and offer more of what we need than crit itself offers, not purely because of its random nature. Yes it can't be relied on to get you out of a sticky situation, but over the whole fight it can be relied on to give some decent numbers.

Infracted. Please report problematic posts instead of participating in it. ~Fhi

[Deleted]

On-topic: I haven't tried healer proving grounds since the update to them (when they got "easier") and since judgment mana and SS changes. Has anyone else?

Tried it, but its just devastating as a Holy Paladin. I made another gear set that I gemmed pure spirit into+spirit metagem and i still go oom and can never ever bounce back.

Edit: As i see it, there are classes/specs who just cannot ever do endless mode. Obviously for example Fire Mages aren't going to ever work out great in Endless Mode, so it wouldn't shock me if the best wave a paladin can reach is pretty unimpressive. <--not saying this as whining, some specs just needs stats to work out.

[Krekko]

I feel like we are in a school yard back in elementary school here, except there's no delicious snacks for recess.

STOP bickering between each other, STOP any sort of name calling, STOP bringing the thread off topic.

Keep ALL posts on topic and constructive, as well as engaging to the conversation. Do NOT post personal attacks, do NOT respond to them and do NOT create posts for the sole purpose to bicker and to further such arguments. These will ALL be considered spam.

Take the thread back on topic, keep it to PALADIN changes on the PTR/5.4, and give the thread some excellent discussion and insight. Thanks!

[Deleted]

Last time I tried proving grounds, endless wave 7 was impossible because the waves overlapped and the mobs that spawn absolutely raped my team. Maybe if they didnt remove the 100% heal from guardian it would be possible but I heard they nerfed that wave anyways so it might not matter. Either way there is no way we are able to compete with the other classes in proving grounds.

[paladative]

Tried it, but its just devastating as a Holy Paladin. I made another gear set that I gemmed pure spirit into+spirit metagem and i still go oom and can never ever bounce back.

Edit: As i see it, there are classes/specs who just cannot ever do endless mode. Obviously for example Fire Mages aren't going to ever work out great in Endless Mode, so it wouldn't shock me if the best wave a paladin can reach is pretty unimpressive. <--not saying this as whining, some specs just needs stats to work out.

The ranged dps are too far away from tank and melee, HR or daybreak are so inefficient. Also, seems that on gold, they can not clear one wave in time. Not sure it's a task to heal through of we are required to dps too.

[nightfalls]

The ranged dps are too far away from tank and melee, HR or daybreak are so inefficient. Also, seems that on gold, they can not clear one wave in time. Not sure it's a task to heal through of we are required to dps too.

Well, some healers can DPS to help out for free, others even get a healing bonus while doing so, and some do more healing than most healers by DPS'ing. Of course, we don't fit in the above categories and it shows in raid.

We are unique in one way though, our cooldown is the only 3 minute healer cooldown that does jack shit against the (physical) AoE adds, and that shows both in PG and in raid funny enough.

[Euphonious]

Was doing Endless and it wasn't too bad as a Paladin, got to the wave 10 achievement on my first try and stopped. Might go back and try for the 20 wave achieve if I have time later but it seemed well tuned.

[nightfalls]

Was doing Endless and it wasn't too bad as a Paladin, got to the wave 10 achievement on my first try and stopped. Might go back and try for the 20 wave achieve if I have time later but it seemed well tuned.

Not terribly surprising, I know pre-nerf (the latest AI/whatever adjustment) that I hit 9 on my first try, probably could have gotten 10 with more effort and more sleep (and better play).

That said though, how possible is 30 looking, and compared to other healers at that? Since gear is scaled down, really the only diff between that and Live would be perhaps more consumables or a better reforge (if you are lazy on PTR as I am), slightly more attention paid and possibly a better UI.

[Deleted]

Here are the numbers for the current ptr build. I crossed off the rotations for which certain builds are inappropriate. The effective healing numbers are obviously based on the %overhealing I assigned each spell and I used the 4 bosses that were open on Flex mode(25 man) as reference. Once I get more logs i will balance it more(logs from live are totally useless).
You can see the stats used for each build on the right.