Orgrimmar Storyline & Alliance Dissatisfaction.

[Combatbutler]

Having followed the course of the lore, both prior to and following the introduction of MoP, I find myself increasingly curious when it comes to the Alliance dissatisfaction with respect to the progression of their lore. The following excerpt is how i've generally understood and indeed, enjoyed the Alliance for a number of years:
The raiding of Camp Taurajo; an attack which was intended to be honourable, as demonstrated General Hawthorne's orders to permit evacuation; but which was carried out badly due to the nature of his subordinates carrying it out. He pays the price with his death.

It was a justified attack, such is war, and innocents die in such wars that is a fact.

- The events in Dalaran; Jaina having captured/imprisoned numerous Blood Elves in her anger, which appears to still be the case according to Lor'themar's dialogue on the Thunder Isle. The ethics are questionable, but one can't blame Jaina with a clear conscience given the the perpetrators of Theramore's destruction are still unapprehended.

She imprisoned whom she could and ordered the death of those who resisted in the slightest, these actions alone made the Alliance so much more interesting it was a realistic response.

In my eyes however, the Alliance is not defined, nor controlled, by personality traits such as the need for revenge; and the Siege of Orgrimmar is going to demonstrate this fact perfectly. We are not like Garrosh's Horde, which permitted the indiscriminate killing of men, women and children in Theramore, Gilneas and various other locations. If anything, the Horde are the losers in the Siege of Orgrimmar; whether they are serving Garrosh, or Vol'jin. What is the best one can say for the rebels/playable Horde faction? Well, the simple fact is that this story will in many ways portray them as hypocrites; for years, they proudly waged war with the Alliance. Not only that, but post-Cataclysm, they were the individuals who helped to make Garrosh's Horde a reality; and only now do they turn against their Warchief, when the tide is not in their favour.

To be honest what purpose does honor have , it is a meaningless concept only those who can afford it cling to, once someone is pushed to the brink morals are thrown overboard, look at the blood elves they chose survival, instead of clinging to their high elven morals for example. Look at the humans who were turned into undead are doing now, the forsaken once were the core of the Alliance.

Nazgrim being a raid boss in Siege of Orgrimmar, perfectly epitomizes the 'honourable' Horde; something that the rebels and playable Horde in this instance, are not. Nazgrim made a vow to serve his Warchief and, whatever the condition or state of his Warchief, and whether it means his own life or death, Nazgrim will be shown to uphold that vow, and his honour, in serving Garrosh to his last breath. He upholds his oath without reservation; and he will die for it. The Rebel/Playable Horde however, in this instance, are shown to express the ultimate humility. They ask the Alliance for help; and the Alliance have no reason to help the Horde at all. Why would they? After the destruction of Theramore, Gilneas, Southshore and various other places, the Alliance were perfectly at liberty to let Orgrimmar burn and the Horde rot; but they do not. The Alliance sets aside its faction differences, in the face of a corrupt Warchief who threatens war upon the world at large.

The Alliance has to act before Garrosh becomes even more of a threat, before it is too late. They might not like the rebels, they don't need to forgive them and don't need to work with them in the future, the difference is after Orgrimmar has fallen, the rebels are still in a position to put up a considerable fight, which would lead to great losses ,as such and unconditional surrender is very unlikely. Varian himself says what he thinks of the rebels they are not allies they are a meatshield to save alliance lives nothing more nothing less, meaning their well being is irrelevant to him.

We will give the Horde something that was not shown to the Alliance under Garrosh; mercy. What will happen after the fall of Garrosh? The Horde at large will not only have to atone for its sins, but also remain morally indebted to the Alliance. If the Horde learns from this? Then perhaps there will be peace. If they do not? Then the lesson will no doubt be taught again.

Atoning for what the sins exactly? War is hell, in war there is no justice, right and wrong, only death and suffering each side has their own morals their own justice. You speak of morality a concept that is ever changing what is right now was wrong several centuries ago and might be wrong again in the future. You treat justice and honor as if they were set in stone, but in reality they are not, they are ever changing.

Justice and wisdom; these are just some of the traits that the Alliance has come to be associated with, and they will not forsaken nor exchanged in favour of the Horde's "eye for an eye" philosophy. Whatever happens after the Siege of Orgrimmar will remain to be seen, but there is no reason whatsoever for the Alliance to deem themselves subject to some sort of injustice or bad story telling thus far; it is entirely in keeping with what the Alliance either is, identifies with or aspires to be.

Justice and wisdom are baseless concepts, each and every faction has their personal moral and honor code and different views on wisdom. The Alliance is in my eyes blatantly unrealistic to a point it can be seen as sheer stupidity. They are not acting reasonable, heck most lack the will to do what is necessary, just look at Jaina and Uther, they did nothing at Stratholme, which is far worse to what Arthas did in my eyes. The Alliance needs to stand its ground and should not constantly cling to honor and justice.

If i'm not mistaken, his increased aggression on that occasion and others was to do with the Spirit of Lo'gosh; an issue which I believe he has since resolved. A better character to look toward for the behaviour that i'm referring to would be Jaina who, rather than slaughtering the Blood Elves and others in a fit of rage, only imprisoned them at worst. Having played both sides of the SoO story line thus far, Varian is actually pretty absent, to the point where I can't remember having once seen him; which is surprising.

Those who resisted in the slightest were put to the sword, like the shopkeepers for example, Jaina did what was necessary, but morally wrong.

[Deleted]

That's well written and I completely agree, but there's still a part of me that feels like we're going so far on the moral high ground that Alliance still have no teeth.

You smash your way right into this throneroom and crush his skull.

THOSE are teeth.

[Nadiru]

I notice you conveniently forgot our good friend, Grand Marshal Garithos. He single-handedly pushed the Blood Elves out of your Alliance and condescendingly persecuted the citizens of Lordaeron for being undead in a dazzling display of human bigotry during the third war. As Alliance leadership, he was your representative and was never reprimanded for his behavior, suggesting a silent approval by the rest of the Alliance. And what about the Goblins? Your precious Alliance fired on an unarmed, civilian ship all because you didn’t want anyone witnessing your ambush on Thrall (who, by the way, was on his way to save the world. Good job trying to lock up Superman…). Or what about the beginning of the Pandaren campaign? After the Horde were beaten and its soldiers defenseless, trying not to drown by swimming to shore, your Alliance commanded they be gunned down with Gatling guns in the water. “Alliance honor” indeed…

Garithos, guy who was actually 100% vindicated after Kael'thas aligned with literal demons and had to be put down, twice? Persecuting the Forsaken who ended up being hilariously, cartoonishly evil and whom now wage war on all life on Azeroth AND who have the capacity to do so? Garithos was a bigot and an asshole, but you'd be hard-pressed to say he was wrong. Blood Elves are magic junkies, and Undead things are evil.

[Deleted]

While the OP's post is great and right on many occasions, I have to say that the Alliance are unhappy, because what the Alliance does win is not, in fact, show ingame, as with the horde. Horde Destroyed Theramore. Theramore ingame is now a huge crater. Alliance reclaimed Dalaran. Dalaran ingame is still over Northrend and it is neutral. Diffrent version of Dalaran is not found anywhere. This shows that Blizzard simly didnt care.

Again, in 5.3, compare both questlines leading to the players helping Vol'jin.
-The horde gets awesome quests and cutscenes.
-The alliance got to ride a mechanical cat.
This, again, clearly speaks of wich faction the developers are focused on.

And this is not only in MoP. The Alliance discrimination was rampant at LARGE in Cataclysm, The alliance pretty much lost every battle except Taurajo, for wich their general got hanged on a tree, if i recall correctly, skinned, and Stonard, wich is later reclaimed by the horde and used as a staging ground for counter attack on the alliance base there.

Compare the Worgen and Goblin too. Goblins got Intergrated within the horde, had their own zone after their two starting ones, Aaaaaan the Worgen got a tree. Thats purely unfair to the alliance side.

[Combatbutler]

Garithos, guy who was actually 100% vindicated after Kael'thas aligned with literal demons and had to be put down, twice? Persecuting the Forsaken who ended up being hilariously, cartoonishly evil and whom now wage war on all life on Azeroth AND who have the capacity to do so? Garithos was a bigot and an asshole, but you'd be hard-pressed to say he was wrong. Blood Elves are magic junkies, and Undead things are evil.

The question is, would the blood elves have turned to Illidan if he hadn't been such a blatant asshole? The answer is unlikely, he left them little to no choice, but to follow their path, which in the end led to the restoration of their sunwell. Would Sylvanas have turned against Garithos if Kael'thas and his blood elves had still been part of his army, after all at the time her people still had a softspot in her heart, so even the forsaken might have cooperated with the Alliance.

[Nadiru]

The question is, would the blood elves have turned to Illidan if he hadn't been such a blatant asshole? The answer is unlikely, he left them little to no choice, but to follow their path, which led to the restoration of their sunwell. Would Sylvanas have turned against Garithos if Kael'thas and his blood elves had still been part of his army, at the time her people still had a softspot in her heart so even the forsaken might have cooperated with the Alliance.

I find universes where that happens more likely than universes where that doesn't happen, because once the Sunwell becomes extinguished (and this would have happened regardless of Kael's allegience; the Scourge war machine was far too powerful by that point) Kael must find a replacement source of magic to save his people. To find a source of magic so potent is not easy, and the demons have it readily. I find it likely, then, that Kael'thas ends up forced to ally with demonic forces to feed the addictions of his people.

[Combatbutler]

I find universes where that happens more likely than universes where that doesn't happen, because once the Sunwell becomes extinguished (and this would have happened regardless of Kael's allegience; the Scourge war machine was far too powerful by that point) Kael must find a replacement source of magic to save his people. To find a source of magic so potent is not easy, and the demons have it readily. I find it likely, then, that Kael'thas ends up forced to ally with demonic forces to feed the addictions of his people.

That isn't necessarily true either, the vast majority of the blood elves in Quel'thalas for example never dabbled in demonic energy, most drained mana from mana bearing vermin and their sanctums, the reason the fel glint spread among them was because the magister used it.

[Nadiru]

That isn't necessarily true either, the vast majority of the blood elves in Quel'thalas for example never dabbled in demonic energy, most drained mana from mana bearing vermin and their sanctums, the reason the fel glint spread among them was because the magister used it.

Which only says that Quel'thalas didn't get desperate enough to dabble, really. By your own admission they are addicted to magic. You cannot expect an addict of any substance to think rationally when given the option to obtain that substance. They might have preferred ways of getting it, but if the option is between having it and not having it? Well, we know where that choice leads.

[Faroth]

To be honest what purpose does honor have , it is a meaningless concept only those who can afford it cling to, once someone is pushed to the brink morals are thrown overboard, look at the blood elves they chose survival, instead of clinging to their high elven morals for example. Look at the humans who were turned into undead are doing now, the forsaken once were the core of the Alliance.

Honor is everything. It's the core of everything for these sort of stories and without it, the story becomes a boring endless cycle of grimly dark tales with no purpose. Once someone is pushed to the bring and they sacrifice their ideals just to survive is when honor becomes the most useful plot point. Because when that honor, essentially the good side of pride, is tarnished, it's how they react, how they feel about it, and what they do in response to the decisions they make that define their path. And that makes for one hell of an interesting story. Without honor, there is no regret, no remorse, no reflection on the actions.

To me, a fantasy story without the concept of honor is like handing the story direction over the Michael Bay and Jerry Bruckheimer. You'll get action and explosions, but the only character development will me-ah hell with that, MORE ACTION AND EXPLOSIONS!!!

You smash your way right into this throneroom and crush his skull.

THOSE are teeth.

You mean Thrall smashes his way in and then the raid fight starts. I know we can argue that the Alliance are canonically there or that the Horde are, but we should be SHOWN Alliance figureheads taking part in the actual confrontation. Like I said, "We shall have peace...." but doesn't look like there will be any such addition.

Don't get me wrong, Thrall needed to be involved, it's his screw up at the root of it all.

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Garithos, guy who was actually 100% vindicated after Kael'thas aligned with literal demons and had to be put down, twice? Persecuting the Forsaken who ended up being hilariously, cartoonishly evil and whom now wage war on all life on Azeroth AND who have the capacity to do so? Garithos was a bigot and an asshole, but you'd be hard-pressed to say he was wrong. Blood Elves are magic junkies, and Undead things are evil.

Actually, Garithos was a jerk. But I'm still confused as to why an entire race turned on the Alliance due to the actions of one lone general lost in the midst of hostile territory when the forces he defended were shattered.

Logically the blood elves really didn't seem to have any reason to be hostile to the Alliance as a whole nor did the Alliance have reason to infiltrate them for reasons other than diplomatic. It was really a case of working the lore to fit the game decision of BEs for the Horde.

Imagine if TBC had gone with the original plan of pandaren and blood elves as the two races, but both were neutral and able to side with who they wished.

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Which only says that Quel'thalas didn't get desperate enough to dabble, really. By your own admission they are addicted to magic. You cannot expect an addict of any substance to think rationally when given the option to obtain that substance. They might have preferred ways of getting it, but if the option is between having it and not having it? Well, we know where that choice leads.

The Alliance high elves stuck in Outland didn't succumb either and they arguably had fel magic rather readily available.

[Combatbutler]

Which only says that Quel'thalas didn't get desperate enough to dabble, really. By your own admission they are addicted to magic. You cannot expect an addict of any substance to think rationally when given the option to obtain that substance. They might have preferred ways of getting it, but if the option is between having it and not having it? Well, we know where that choice leads.

Quel'thalas was besieged from all sides, the scourge knocking on their doors, the amani invading their territory. The blood elves are addicted to magic, but they had that thirst under control, through manadraining, those who lost control and constantly drained mana became the wretched. They dealt with it the reasonable way without it they where physically weaker, and in poorer health. Not feeding their addiction meant Quel'thalas would fall and their people must likely with it, so they sullied their hands, are pragmatic and reasonable choice.

[Melkandor]

I'll be perfectly satisfied when I get me Conqueror of Orgrimmar title. That'll be something I can forever shove in the Horde's face.

Me too, I'm gonna wear that on all my characters for the rest of my WoW career while I own Horde in PvP

[Combatbutler]

Honor is everything. It's the core of everything for these sort of stories and without it, the story becomes a boring endless cycle of grimly dark tales with no purpose. Once someone is pushed to the bring and they sacrifice their ideals just to survive is when honor becomes the most useful plot point. Because when that honor, essentially the good side of pride, is tarnished, it's how they react, how they feel about it, and what they do in response to the decisions they make that define their path. And that makes for one hell of an interesting story. Without honor, there is no regret, no remorse, no reflection on the actions.

To me, a fantasy story without the concept of honor is like handing the story direction over the Michael Bay and Jerry Bruckheimer. You'll get action and explosions, but the only character development will me-ah hell with that, MORE ACTION AND EXPLOSIONS!!!

Personal preference I guess, honor is fine and dandy if you can afford it, but to constantly clinging to it no matter the cost is nothing but pure stupidity in my eyes, which is why I dislike Tirion Fordring so much, logically he should have never made it this far in Icecrown.

The Alliance high elves stuck in Outland didn't succumb either and they arguably had fel magic rather readily available.

They stole magical artifacts from the Broken to sate their hunger though.

[Orcbert]

Say what?

Do you mean Dalaran? If so, then you have no idea what the word "genocide" means. Maybe you could describe her actions as "mass incarceration", but not "targeted killing of a race of people with the aim of eradication". Her aims were not to kill every blood elf.

Compare that to the Forsaken's stated goal of mass planetary biospheric destruction.

From what I saw there they were pretty intent on killing every Blood Elf. I saw no prisoners but a lot of citizens being murdered by guards.

[Combatbutler]

From what I saw there they were pretty intent on killing every Blood Elf. I saw no prisoners but a lot of citizens being murdered by guards.

Jaina walks around the center of the city teleporting sunreavers to the violet hold, the Silver covenant is not as gentle ,they beat up civilians, demand their belongings or outright kill them etc.

[Minikin]

Rage induced post by jediguy

So the OP makes a well versed opinion and you run in forthing at the mouth and explain yours. Honestly? Its an opinion and its a game, but the way your rage takes over you as you type out your "opinion" leaves numerous questions regarding sanity and "calm down bro!".

as for the actual post. He is right. If you are true supporters of your "Warchief" why in the blazes would you go against him. Regardless of what he does. Isnt the orcish rite of passage through a duel to the death? Also, Nazgrim is following orders from Garrosh but the other horde will raid orgimmar. So who is the true horde? Who is the honorable and loyal one? And who is the hypocrite? Both cant be it.

As for Garithos. Really? I guess I should just constantly blame every little demon summon, invasion, orc presence, every death on what the night elves did with well of eternity. Had they not messed with its powers so much Sargeras would not have been called to attention here, the first cataclysm wouldnt have happened, the orcs would have later never made it through because we would never have been on the radar of the legion, medvih would have turned out to be a nice God fearing person who raises chickens while absently zapping the nearby gnolls with arcane blast as they try to make off with some of his poultry? Garithos was stupid and that was a puppet string to lead into the blood elf story. He was not however the leader of a faction.

And honestly I am sure Garrosh has shown trolls, tauren, goblins, blood elves far better treatment than Garithos did the blood elves eh? Yeaaaaaaaa..........All rise for the national anthem of Garrosh's horde please.

Jaina? Same deal. She is not the faction leader. What many people conviniently forget is that since wrath of the lich king, two storylines have been in the making. Garrosh and Varian. Others are just side line additives. However thats a double edge sword. You cannot call Sylvanas out and say Jaina is innocent. The difference however is. When thrall and Kalecgos stopped her. She stopped. Wonder what all that green goo in southshore means regarding sylvanas'. Hell we all know by the undead quests that garrosh has no hold over her. Given the chance she would raise him as a minion and whip him everyday, once at breakfast, once at supper, once at dinner and once more before bed.

As for the sunreavers. Sure then, I wonder you can answer for those dudes the undead constantly try their plague on. No? Even so, what she did was wrong. Reprecussions however? Why? Do we get compensation for those mountain dwarves being tested on? Furthermore the entire reason the alliance was trying to grab hold of the artifact was so garrosh could not use it to bad ends. Not to use against the horde. If you did both sides of the quest you would realise that. The only reason Jaina can be blamed in her outright actions was that she forgot that many of the blood elves served garrosh under threat.

The storyline has been in developement regarding Garrosh and Varian. In wrath they were both hot head jerks. One working to make a name and craving power. The other having both and trying to control it.

Cataclysm. Garrosh got both, the name and power. Everyone was against it. How much of a hero is Saurfang to the horde? If he disagrees with Garrosh being warchief wonder what that says about Garrosh's mettle as warchief? Only reason he agreed is because he respects thrall's decision. Garrosh at the start of the cataclysm was pretty good if you look back. When the orc (forget his name) bombed the druids in stonetalon mountains. Garrosh execues him for genocide. And tells the others that this is not what the horde is about. Yea he invades ashenvale and all that jazz but frankly the horde needs lumber and food they cant live off the dirt in durotar.

Varian in Cataclysm is taken by Lo'gosh. And begins to get better at his control and mindset. Solves the dwarf dispute and if i remember correctly, thoroughly kicks the shit out of garrosh in single combat. Oh dont mince words. You can read what happened in the book. Garrosh looses. Yea he tried to run back into the fight but in duels ifs and buts dont happen. You go in an win. Varian wasnt being lead away by his soldiers. Garrosh was.

And now we arrive at mists of pandaria. Mr. Garrosh has gone bat shit crazy. Made a few rifts in his own horde. He has tried to use the powers of an old God (remember Cho'gall? or by extrapolation, remember grom hellscream and manoroth's blood?). Bombed theramore. War? I wonder who attacked first. Jaina or Garrosh. Making towers and fortresses? Yea numerous in the horde territory eh? Northwatch was lost long ago. Theramore was there before horde expansion. Alliance leadership? All garrosh wanted was to spark a war, at watever the cost, and he did it.

The faction leader and its people make the faction. You can judge by yourself. The horde is already divided, and your leader is a fool. If some lone horde green dude still holds to honor or what not, it is like a drop of water before a waterfall. He/she is drowned out by the foolishness of the rest of the faction. Im sure you will be trooping around with a horde banner until garrosh looks at the goblins and oh what did he say? "Sniveling" "Lining their pockets" "turn at the chance of a better of offer", wonder if you will still go around as happily eh.

Nah id rather follow an actual leader.

[Sierra85]

Me too, I'm gonna wear that on all my characters for the rest of my WoW career while I own Horde in PvP

way to rub it in their faces! urgh!

[Goretex]

Dunno why Alliance would be dissatisfied, they get to raid our capitol city, take out our Faction leader, and get a badass title. Look at us horde what happened to our faction pride? seems there is none. All we do is get take out Garrosh one of our own. Idk why we just don't forget about Garrosh and take out the Alliance while our ships are docked at Stormwind. But they wouldn't let us do that, that's too cool and would piss off alliance lol. So as a Horde player my faction pride and morale is extremely low

[Deathgoose]

Jaina walks around the center of the city teleporting sunreavers to the violet hold, the Silver covenant is not as gentle ,they beat up civilians, demand their belongings or outright kill them etc.

I think a lot of people confuse Jaina with Vareesa and the Kirin Tor with the Silver Covenant.

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Can you specifically point out any non-combatants killed at these locations? I mean, if you’re going to claim the Horde is killing civilians willy-nilly, you have examples to back it up, yes? Oh… shucks, doesn’t look like there are any. Indeed, Theramore was specifically evacuated before Garrosh attacked, leaving only military personnel there. Gilneas was already ravaged by the Worgen, leaving only ravenous wolves to combat the Forsaken. The only humans I ever killed as a Horde in the battle for Silverpine Forest or Gilneas were combatants from Dalaran. Sorry – no civilians.

Also, this one? Really?

1) Nuking a druid school in Stonetalon.
2) Plague bombing all citizens into goo in Southshore.

I'm interested in how you creatively spin those.

[tripleh]

The alliance still deserves something from all this but that idiot metzen and kosak won't give them anything. As players we gotta deal with what ever stupid outcome they give us. Personally alliance should get some lands returned , like ashenvale , gilneas etc. The victory from the raid is gonna be empty. The dev's and metzen dont expect to give back anything to the alliance, but yet they were all ok with the alliance getting screwed on many battle fronts and contested areas. By having the horde take over there lands during Cata. But now its not a good idea they say if alliance gets any of those back.

[Minikin]

Dunno why Alliance would be dissatisfied, they get to raid our capitol city, take out our Faction leader, and get a badass title. Look at us horde what happened to our faction pride? seems there is none. All we do is get take out Garrosh one of our own. Idk why we just don't forget about Garrosh and take out the Alliance while our ships are docked at Stormwind. But they wouldn't let us do that, that's too cool and would piss off alliance lol. So as a Horde player my faction pride and morale is extremely low

the way things are going. and assuming the launch of titan, the story of warcraft is at an end. meaning the burning legion needs to be dealt with. Cant do that fighting each other, but fighting each other cannot stop after one final confrontation. I guess this expansion is that. The alliance and horde were enemies. Through vanilla, burning crusade and wrath of the lich king we were evenly distracted by this threat and that. However truth be told, confrontation could never break out if Thrall was incharge of horde and Varian untested for alliance. So wrath introduced Varian and Garrosh. Cataclysm tempered them. Mists showed the result of that hammering.

The next expac might be the one with the, "relative tenous" peace with each side. However one issue remains. Forsaken. Sylvanas....is going on a very interesting tangent. It almost feels like she plans to outlive everyone, and reanimate the dead regardless of faction into the forsaken. Wonder whats up with her.

You cannot really take out the undercity, due to faction imbalance. You cannot really take out the forsaken due to faction imbalance. 5 alliance cities, 5 horde cities. 6 factions each. Wonder if the legion is beaten and the draenei leave for their homeworld argus. The forsaken die out and get their release and rest. But then anyone who wants to play an undead is SoL. Eh we will see what happens.