Should LFD have ever been implemented?

[Eats Compost]

I think one mistake you make is that the "end" of the journey isn't really the end in wow. The game gets added content. There is nothing wrong with the design you're proposing, it just isn't WoW. In a table top RPG the content never has to end because you have an active GM creating encounters as you go. A video game has finite resources and finite options. I've always felt PvP should be designed exactly how you describe, but I've come to accept that is not how WoW is designed, or how they want to design it. Counter Strike, Starcraft, Baseball, Monopoly can be repeated because the player creates the dynamic content. In WoW we're largely playing against a computer and we hit those finite options.

Ideally, there would be no "end" in WoW with constant content updates, but the reality is that the content doesn't come out quickly enough or in great enough volume. And knowing Blizzard, unless they seriously overhaul their development teams altogether, that isn't going to change.

You're right in saying that it "just isn't WoW", but I view that as a problem. Subscriber numbers are dropping substantially, and even if it isn't apocalyptic, something is definitely wrong, and something has to give way. Dynamic content may be what WoW needs to pursue in order to survive, and I truly do not think that it can survive on the raid/daily zone patch cycle model. The game isn't riding well on MMO novelty anymore and it only faces more competition with every passing day. Something has to happen, and I think that the heavily reward-centric model is at the center of the problem. Content desperately needs to stand on its own merits, even when disassociated with rewards. Yet, that just isn't happening. Thus, change is required.

I can honestly say that I would not play this game if it weren't for my good friends who also play it, and vice-versa. These days, we do a lot more stuff in other online multiplayer games, because it's just more engaging and less tedious, with less stick and more carrot. We find it very hard to justify going and doing something like LFR over a DotA 2 game or somesuch, outside of the gear reward. It doesn't help that the very same rewards will be ones we replace down the line, and that not receiving the rewards we were after make the whole thing seem like a waste of time.

Perhaps if Blizzard worked faster and delivered more content, this wouldn't be a problem. But with 6 months in between raids, and at least 3 months in between zone hubs, it isn't enough, especially not with relatively underwhelming content batches such as Battlefield: Barrens. So, I think that Blizzard has to change their strategy up and focus on forms of content with longer-lasting value that don't rely on rewards as heavily, to keep people coming back for better reasons.

[nekobaka]

Actually LFD = easier 5 mans as many times confirmed by GC via blue posts and tweets. The reason that WotLK had easy 5 mans was due to idiotic design prior LFD.

Those heroics are still more difficult than the dirt we got this expansion that Blizzard has the audacity to label "heroic". I remember going into a solo queue group while still fresh from leveling and doing it with four DPS and a monk tank keeping the group up. It seems a lot of players forgot the one shot mechanics in WotLK launch heroics and yet cried about the Cata ones as if it was something new.

Perhaps if Blizzard worked faster and delivered more content, this wouldn't be a problem. But with 6 months in between raids, and at least 3 months in between zone hubs, it isn't enough, especially not with relatively underwhelming content batches such as Battlefield: Barrens. So, I think that Blizzard has to change their strategy up and focus on forms of content with longer-lasting value that don't rely on rewards as heavily, to keep people coming back for better reasons.

Casuals consuming content too fast wasnt an issue before and yet it is now. Blizzard went down a route to cater to a clientele that demands fast to consume content and a lot of it. Both Blizzard and the other players are dealing with the consequence of the developers foolishness to cater to the insatiable.

[judgementofantonidas]

I have one word to say about LFD.

GOODY BAGS!!!

[Eats Compost]

I have one word to say about LFD.

GOODY BAGS!!!

I keep on getting gear pieces for slots I already have filled when I'd much rather have the damn bag. It's incredibly frustrating as someone that doesn't have enchanting. I'd greatly enjoy the ability to blacklist drops for slots that I already have an item of equivalent or greater item level for, even if the chance at getting blacklisted items was just replaced with a chance to get the bag.

[judgementofantonidas]

I keep on getting gear pieces for slots I already have filled when I'd much rather have the damn bag. It's incredibly frustrating as someone that doesn't have enchanting. I'd greatly enjoy the ability to blacklist items for slots that I already have an item of equivalent or greater item level for.

thought we were talking about looking for dungeon, which I only ever que for when the goody bag for tank is available.

[Uoyredrum]

No, it helped destroy the server community in wow and was basically what killed world pvp. Casuals who hate pvp probably love it, but anyone who likes pvp, or likes both aspects of the game is a different story.

This game would be much better off without LFD and LFR but they're here now and they're not going away.

[Eats Compost]

thought we were talking about looking for dungeon, which I only ever que for when the goody bag for tank is available.

Whoops. Didn't read it properly. I just saw "bag" and assumed something.

I guess my gripe is at least pertinent to the topic, though.

[Retron]

LFD is superb. It's the one thing I wish they'd have implemented in EverQuest, as when the populations there fell it became almost impossible to get a pickup group going. Without LFD WoW would have gone the same way. It really was a game-changer and is something that I wish EverQuest had copied.

[Rielthas]

You have to realize that WoW was once like a town, and then it became like a small city, and then a massive major city. As WoW grew, the mixture of different people, personalities, preferences, etc. changed it forever. In a small town you can get away with forcing people to actively seek out the things they need. As populations of communities grow, people demand more and more conveniences to be created for them on average.

I don't doubt that when WoW was a smaller community game, many people were accepting and ok with a manual grouping system. As WoW grew bigger, I don't doubt that some players were exceptionally social and were able to still function just fine in the same system. They were like the cool kids, fitting in with the in-crowd, found their own population nieche, click, etc. However, the bigger WoW got, the more players came into the game who did not have these social desires, skills, etc. to overshadow the number of in-crowd players.

The reality is, you can't expect millions of random players to get along, to socialize with each other, and to accept reliance on each other to function within the community. There will always be groups of social people, guilds, etc. that are just fine with this, but for every player like this, there's probably 5 who are not. WoW is now, and has been for years, like a massive city or world with a such a diverse playerbase, the vast majority is going to demand conveniences such as auto-grouping. Its inevitable. To expect that they won't is like expecting people in a major city to accept having to ask each other for rides constantly to get around the city. While some might be ok with this, can you honestly expect the vast majority to not demand taxis, busses, subways, etc., which allow them to function on their own without having to rely on the social acceptance of other people?

The reality is, WoW is too big of an environment with too diverse of a population to expect the majority to be social enough to function without the convenience of auto-grouping, as is the case with every other MMO that tries to have a massive player base. People who hate this fact of high player base MMO's should play Nieche mmo's, where the majority of the players, much smaller as it is, is all drawn together by a particular preference. In a diverse MMO like WoW, this will never happen - the vast majority of the playerbase will never agree on anything, let along accept having to get along with people they don't wish to get along with in order to function in the game. Its a nice dream, but it will never be again, unless WoW becomes a ghosttown at some point in the future.

[Ihnasir]

Yes, of course. It was cool to do random groups with people from your server and get to know them.

I recall a healer in a VH pug I did (when I was still trying to get that 200 ilvl staff for tanking) and he had a King Diamond rez macro. Loved it.

It allowed me to be more well known on my server. When I said "Tank LFG Random Heroic" I'd always get whispers because people knew who I was.

I do miss that, but it's quite nice to have groups at my beck and call for whenever I want to run one.

[Punisher069]

I don't remember anyone talking in any pug I was in unless there were friends in the group.

[Deleted]

I never spoke again with the vast majority of people I ran dungeons with in Vanilla.
We were just random people from around my level who ran a single dungeon and then went our separate ways.
There also really wasn't a great deal more conversation in old dungeon groups than there is in LFD groups.

And last, please, please stop pretending in your head that Vanilla and BC dungeons were difficult. Having to stop before every pull to crowd control things is not difficult, it was tedious and a pain.

"Sheep moon, trap triangle, kill skull first" is hardly invigorating conversation that builds great communities.

In Vanilla and BC it was impossible to just pull everything and AoE it down, if you tried that you would wipe immedietly. Crowd control does add skill, claiming otherwise is ridiculous. But crowd control wasn't the only part, actually having to check your threat and not overaggroing off targets was also part of it. The absence of these things along with reduced damage on both trash mobs and bosses leaves you with a bunch of sand bags which can't even be considered a threat.

Storming through dungeons aoe'ing everything down without thought, what's even the point of it being called "group content" at that point?

Also you not keeping in touch with the group members is really your own fault. You were on the same server, around the same level, if you liked the people you could have taken the initiative and talked to them, tried to group with them again. The old system was no guarantee for you to meet new people, there is still a responsibility in every person to step up as well, but it at the very least gives you the possibility to do so. Something that is no longer true today due to the anonymity of it all, the pretty much guarantee that you won't ever see those people again, so even ignoring an asshole won't help, he will just be replaced by a new asshole in the next run.

[Dormie]

I don't remember anyone talking in any pug I was in unless there were friends in the group.

Apparently you never got in vent.

[LeperHerring]

LFD destroyed the 5-man experience for me. It removed the group building aspect from the game, where previously you actually had to design a meaningful group and maintain a list of friends you could call on to group with. It was much more meaningful experience than the current mindless zerging with strangers who might as well be NPCs. Further, LFD means that Blizzard can no longer build epic 5-man experiences like BRD etc.

Maybe LFD would be fine for leveling content, but for max level content it's just a terrible idea.

[championknight]

Well if only they didn't put so many instances in Horde territory I might have been against LFD, I played on a PVP server and I could not even protect myself without a gargle of horde waiting to pounce on me and my party on the way to dungeon

Instances in Horde territory (8) : Ragefire Chasm, Wailing Caverns, all 4 Scarlet Monastery instances, Razorfen Downs, Razorfen Kraul
Instances in Alliance territory (3) : Deadmines, Stockades, Gnomeregan

[Deleted]

It was quite horrible to sit and try to find more group members for (sometimes) hours, and then have to summon some of them since they were to lazy to get there.. Whenever someone left, especially the tank or healer, everybody else did as well, since no one could be bothered to find replacements. It was too much of an annoyance from time to time.

So yes, LFD is a good thing, even if it becomes "less social" sort of.

[Deleted]

Can someone explain to me how LFD made dungeons easier? For the life of me I cant figure out how it affects the difficulty of the dungeon.
Im hearing a lot of claims with little to back them up in this thread.

[Deleted]

Can someone explain to me how LFD made dungeons easier? For the life of me I cant figure out how it affects the difficulty of the dungeon.
Im hearing a lot of claims with little to back them up in this thread.

Due to the nature of LFD grouping up people randomly, it would be too much to expect anyone to actually be able to do anything in the group. Hence it's designed around there being a lack of teamwork, ever wondered why you have a buff called "luck of the draw"? It even increases your health, damage and healing done by 5 % for every person who is added randomly with the LFD. If you sign up with a full group of friends you don't have a single stack of it.

It's the same reason LFR is so easy, and the reason they want raiders to enter LFR, to carry the rest who aren't able to do anything by themselves, instead of actually demanding them to become better, they allow them to continue to become even worse by not putting any form of demand in terms of some form of actual skill.

It's also the reason they didn't add the group finder for Heroic Scenarios. Ghostcrawler even stated that if they did that, they would have to make heroic scenarios even easier to make up for the random groups.

[Pull My Finger]

It was for MMOs what the wheel has been for humanity.

[glowpipe]

now you can sign up. go do dailies, work on professions or whatever you want. Old useless system you had to spend up to hours finding members or group. Where you could not do anything else than sitting in the chat typing. LFD was a needed future.