Your plans on 5.4 healing trinkets?

[Deleted]

Just did some testing with both the healing and dps amplification trinkets.

-The crit effect is actually coming out to ~4% on the 553 trinkets (no, my gear was not being scaled down).
-Crit effect double dips with atonement
-The stats are being boosted by the proposed 7% for 553 versions
-With both trinkets equipped the effects are all additive, not multiplicative
-PW:S crits are now being effected by the crit effect boost

In discipline gear renew ticks for 14397 and crits are 14974, which is indeed 4%. It is probably a bug that will be corrected.

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Let us put it all together now.

For holy assuming 19% buffed crit and 32% buffed mastery, 15% haste and 12k spirit, the amplification buff is worth 2.66% crit, 1.54% mastery, 1.05% haste and 840 spirit. This is equivalent to a grand total of 3 872.25. To convert that to a % increase in healing


% increase = (1+crit*1.14)*(0.993+1.07*mastery)*(1+haste*1.07)/[(1+crit)*(1+mastery)*(1+haste)] = (1+0.19*1.14)*(0.993+1.07*0.32)*(1+1.07*0.15)/(1.19*1.32*1.15) = 1.043723821824

a 4.37% increase in healing is equivalent to ~1960 intellect.

Hence the 7% amplification buff is equivalent to 1960 intellect and 840 spirit.

the intellect proc is equivalent to 1960 intellect as well so the grand total is 3920 intellect and 840 spirit. If we compare it with the full buffed hc horridons trinket, which equivalent to 1785 intellect and 1.7k spirit we see that the amplification trinket is more than twice as much throughput, but about half as much regen.

However this does not take overhealing into account, since intellect is much less susceptible to overhealing than crit. The cleave trinket has the same intellect proc but it has 3.11% chance to duplicate a heal and divide it between up to 5 nearby targets. On paper that is 3.11% more healing assuming it procs off every heal. Hence the cleave trinket is worth a 3.11% increase in healing and 1960 intellect compared with a 4.37% increase in healing, 1960 intellect and 840 spirit. However that is before overheal. In real terms I think the multistrike trinket might actually come on top for holy.

The multistrike trinket has 14% chance to do 33% additional healing so a 4.29% increase in healing before overheal. The intellect proc is also 1960 if it procs exactly once per minute. For holy the multistrike trinket has the highest overheal potential, so it is probably behind the amp and cleave trinkets.

For disc with 35% crit, 35% mastery, 10k spirit and 9% buffed haste, the amplification buff is worth


For disc the amplification buff is worth overall ~5.46% healing before overheal. This is due to a 2.47% increase in healing and a 9.5% increase in aegis (from increased crit amount + the buff to mastery). PWS is buffed by 4.84%. With 10k spirit you also get 700 more spirit. So for disc given the important of aegis and spirit shell the amplification trinket is by far the biggest boost.

Conclusion: the amp trinket is the best throughput trinket for disc easily worth in excess of 2% total healing more than the other trinkets. The amp trinket is probably not as good as the cleave trinket for holy.

On paper all trinkets have proc int worth on average ~1960. Ignoring overheal the multistrike trinket is 4.29% more healing, the cleave trinket is 3.11% more raw healing and the amp trinket is 4.37% more healing for holy and 5.46% more healing for disc.

The trinket represents a 9.5% increase in aegis. At 35% crit you will need 0.35*1.095 = 0.38325, or 3.325% extra crit to produce a 9.5% increase in aegis.

[appro]

So was it removed? I never saw anything mentioned about that, if that is the case, and that makes me sad.

I haven't looked at the whole list yet, so I'm not sure. The Timeless Isle one seems good to macro with Sha of Happieness. I mean Shadowfiend.

No, I mean Sha of Happieness. That's what I'm calling him from now on.

I read and saw nothing about the removal of the CD reduction trinket. When I went through the dungeon journal checking loot tables all intellect classes get the cleave trinket and multistrike trinket, no CD reduction. Melee and Tanks can still pick it up though...

Getting tired of these boring and shitty trinkets, I remember reading they were "doing something exciting with trinkets in 5.4".
Healers getting bonus overhealing and spirit procs is not exciting. Its fucking lame.

[Hyclro]

All of the trinkets are terrible except for the amp trinket, and that's only good if it's heroic or heroic warforged.

[TirielWoW]

I read and saw nothing about the removal of the CD reduction trinket. When I went through the dungeon journal checking loot tables all intellect classes get the cleave trinket and multistrike trinket, no CD reduction. Melee and Tanks can still pick it up though...

Getting tired of these boring and shitty trinkets, I remember reading they were "doing something exciting with trinkets in 5.4".
Healers getting bonus overhealing and spirit procs is not exciting. Its fucking lame.

The CD reduction trinket was converted into the Cleave trinket. I know because I tested the CD reduction trinket and when the new build came out, it was converted into the Cleave trinket.

[dmfg]

I read and saw nothing about the removal of the CD reduction trinket. When I went through the dungeon journal checking loot tables all intellect classes get the cleave trinket and multistrike trinket, no CD reduction. Melee and Tanks can still pick it up though...

Getting tired of these boring and shitty trinkets, I remember reading they were "doing something exciting with trinkets in 5.4".
Healers getting bonus overhealing and spirit procs is not exciting. Its fucking lame.

Would be nice to differentiate between "boring" and "shitty". I actually like a lot of the designs of trinkets recently (both 5.4, and 5.2 including things like Hydra spawn). The problem is that these trinkets with interesting mechanics are just plain terrible for actual throughput.

I would rather see Blizz buff these PTR trinkets to usable levels, than to see every trinket being either int/spirit or an Althor's Abacus clone.

[Deleted]

Would be nice to differentiate between "boring" and "shitty". I actually like a lot of the designs of trinkets recently (both 5.4, and 5.2 including things like Hydra spawn). The problem is that these trinkets with interesting mechanics are just plain terrible for actual throughput.

I would rather see Blizz buff these PTR trinkets to usable levels, than to see every trinket being either int/spirit or an Althor's Abacus clone.

What do you mean usable levels. All these trinkets are pretty powerful compared to the previous tier.

[TirielWoW]

What do you mean usable levels. All these trinkets are pretty powerful compared to the previous tier.

Perhaps in theory, but in practice it doesn't seem to hold up. Either that or I am literally the unluckiest caster in the world.

[dmfg]

What do you mean usable levels. All these trinkets are pretty powerful compared to the previous tier.

Only because Inscribed bag of Hydra Spawn and Stolen Relic of Zuldazar are absolutely atrocious, and Lightning Imbued Chalice is basically an Althor's Abacus clone and therefore not very exciting in terms of mechanics.

EDIT: I'm not on PTR, so going by what HeatherRae etc are reporting in terms of healing done by those trinkets.

[Deleted]

Perhaps in theory, but in practice it doesn't seem to hold up. Either that or I am literally the unluckiest caster in the world.

Not in theory in practice. The multistrike proc for holy should be about 3% of total healing done, since the proc works on raw healing, is a smart heal and is divided across 5 targets. The cleave trinket is potentially bad for holy. Any of the trinkets in the previous tier average at 1% of total healing done. The amp trinket is hard to predict for holy. It might be better or worse than multistrike depending on the fight. For disc the amp trinket is going to be very strong once they fix the boost to crit healing being strong. It should be anywhere between 4 to 5% of total healing done, which is much stronger than any trinket in the previous tier.

It is not quite the landslide I thought it would be when is misread it as 7% more healing, but it is still ahead by a large margin.

[dmfg]

Not in theory in practice. The multistrike proc for holy should be about 3% of total healing done, since the proc works on raw healing, is a smart heal and is divided across 5 targets. The cleave trinket is potentially bad for holy. Any of the trinkets in the previous tier average at 1% of total healing done. The amp trinket is hard to predict for holy. It might be better or worse than multistrike depending on the fight. For disc the amp trinket is going to be very strong once they fix the boost to crit healing being strong. It should be anywhere between 4 to 5% of total healing done, which is much stronger than any trinket in the previous tier.

It is not quite the landslide I thought it would be when is misread it as 7% more healing, but it is still ahead by a large margin.

Have you tested it? Tooltips can be wrong, there might be code bugs, etc. Actual PTR testing > what the trinket "should" do.

[circenn]

I wasn't impressed with the % amplifier trinket. I had high hopes for it, but after trying them out on the PTR I went with the int trinkets with the spirit proc/use.

[TirielWoW]

Not in theory in practice. The multistrike proc for holy should be about 3% of total healing done, since the proc works on raw healing, is a smart heal and is divided across 5 targets. The cleave trinket is potentially bad for holy. Any of the trinkets in the previous tier average at 1% of total healing done. The amp trinket is hard to predict for holy. It might be better or worse than multistrike depending on the fight. For disc the amp trinket is going to be very strong once they fix the boost to crit healing being strong. It should be anywhere between 4 to 5% of total healing done, which is much stronger than any trinket in the previous tier.

It is not quite the landslide I thought it would be when is misread it as 7% more healing, but it is still ahead by a large margin.

The Multistrike trinket has never surpassed 2.5% of my healing. The Cleave trinket has never surpassed 1% of my healing (the most I ever saw it heal was .5% of my healing, it's normally even lower). I'm honestly holding on to my H HLG.

[Deleted]

Yea if u get H HLG you most likely want to use that together with either the amp trinket or the int with spirit proc Hc tf HLG will most likely be better than most trinkets apart from like HC warforged. Atleast for disc anything with passive int is so strong but i guess i will have to test the amp trinket more to see if it rly is a big increase to our DA heals (cuz thats mainly why i would choose it in the first place). For holy i would probably go with multistrike and H Hlg

[Deleted]

The Multistrike trinket has never surpassed 2.5% of my healing. The Cleave trinket has never surpassed 1% of my healing (the most I ever saw it heal was .5% of my healing, it's normally even lower). I'm honestly holding on to my H HLG.

H HLG is 10075 mana per minute at 10% haste or so, which works out at 840mp5 or 1516 spirit. It also adds 1785 intellect

The unupgraded multistrike trinket adds 3% total HPS after overheal, which is just about equivalent to 1345 intellect with zero overheal or somewhere in the order of 1800 intellect at the very reasonable 30% overheal. It also has an intellect proc worth 1960 intelelct.

3760 intellect versus 1785 intellect and 1516 spirit. The multistrike trinket looks better as far as I am concerned.

The int trinket with the spirit proc has 1960 int on it unupgraded and it gives you 23520 spirit for 10s, but the spirit bonus is reduced by 1176 every 0.5sec.
This is equivalent to 11760 spirit for 10s. Uptime is roughly the same as HLG so once a minute. Thus the average amount of spirit contributed by this trinket is 1 960.

Thus the int/spi SoO trinket is 1960int and 1960 spirit equivalent before upgrades, where HLG is 1785 intellect and 1516 spirit. The upgraded normal int/spi SoO trinket is thus considerably better than even hc TF HLG.

Basically all versions of HLG are immediately replaced by the int/spi SoO trinket, unless you want to run with two regen trinkets. All throughput trinkets from ToT get immediately replaced by multistrike or the amp trinket.

[Noradin]

In discipline gear renew ticks for 14397 and crits are 14974, which is indeed 4%. It is probably a bug that will be corrected.

Maybe it is working as intended - additive to our other healing increase multipliers (which would mean we get punished for shadow having access to our healing spells).

[Lothrik]

3760 intellect versus 1785 intellect and 1516 spirit. The multistrike trinket looks better as far as I am concerned.

You're treating spellpower as intellect, which is just wrong. It's not 3760 psuedo-intellect, it's 1800 psuedo-spellpower plus 1960 average proc intellect.

Not only that, I'm pretty sure the multistrike procs are actually inferior to spellpower because they don't interact with anything like Divine Aegis AFAIK. Correct me if I'm wrong on that please, if the Multistrike trinket can actually trigger DA that would be a pleasant surprise. I would still say it's awful though, simply because it's unreliable. It's essentially a trinket with proc spellpower, proc intellect, and nothing else.

[Deleted]

You're treating spellpower as intellect, which is just wrong. It's not 3760 psuedo-intellect, it's 1800 psuedo-spellpower plus 1960 average proc intellect.

Not only that, I'm pretty sure the multistrike procs are actually inferior to spellpower because they don't interact with anything like Divine Aegis AFAIK. Correct me if I'm wrong on that please, if the Multistrike trinket can actually trigger DA that would be a pleasant surprise. I would still say it's awful though, simply because it's unreliable. It's essentially a trinket with proc spellpower and proc intellect and nothing else.

No I am not. I am treating intellect as intellect and apply the proper conversion to spellpower . I calculated the amount of INTELLECT required to produce a 3% increase not the amount of spellpower.

I don't care if the cleave trinket interacts with its long dead aunt. All that matters is how much of your total healing it represents. It is ~3% after overheal. That is roughly equivalent to about 1800 intellect (not 1800 spellpower) with 30% overheal. That is a value taken from raid testing. I saw a 3% average others reported values in the same range. The calculated value of 3.11% would be incorrect for discipline if it did not proc extra aegis, but not for holy.

For discipline the amp trinket is better than anything. For holy cleave is probably better because it works on total raw healing.

[Lothrik]

I calculated the amount of INTELLECT required to produce a 3% increase not the amount of spellpower.

The amount of intellect required to provide a 3% increase in healing changes with how good or bad your gear is though. The conversion you did makes no sense. 1800 intellect is a lot more than a 3% increase at say, 520 iLvl. It's probably less than a 1.5% increase at 580 iLvl. The primary reason I think converting it to Intellect is silly is because Intellect provides crit, which for Disc is essentially excluded from overhealing and will skew your already skewed data even further. Spellpower doesn't suffer from this problem as it just scales linearly regardless of how much overhealing you factor in.

Regardless, it's not a particularly interesting topic for me and your response just makes me feel like you're not actually open to discussion, so I'll just leave you to it.

[Eiffel]

Regardless, it's not a particularly interesting topic for me and your response just makes me feel like you're not actually open to discussion, so I'll just leave you to it.

Do you never come to the forums? Thats pretty much all of his responses, lol.

[Deleted]

The amount of intellect required to provide a 3% increase in healing changes with how good or bad your gear is though. The conversion you did makes no sense. 1800 intellect is a lot more than a 3% increase at say, 520 iLvl. It's probably less than a 1.5% increase at 580 iLvl. The primary reason I think converting it to Intellect is silly is because Intellect provides crit, which for Disc is essentially excluded from overhealing and will skew your already skewed data even further. Spellpower doesn't suffer from this problem as it just scales linearly regardless of how much overhealing you factor in.

Regardless, it's not a particularly interesting topic for me and your response just makes me feel like you're not actually open to discussion, so I'll just leave you to it.

See that is why I get annoyed. I will repost it for you.

Spellpower increases healing as follows

Base*(1+k*spellpower)

Thus spellpower increases healing at a rate of k/(1+k*spellpower).

k is the same for all heals and it is ~0.000104

1k spellpower at 50k spellpower thus produces an increase of

1000*0.000104157691/(1+0.000104157691*50000) = 0.016778290601

1k spellpower is thus equal to 1.7% more healing.

1k intellect produces 1.31k spellpower or 2.227% more healing.

As you can see the diminising returns on spellpower ramps up quite slowly because the denominator is 1+K*spellpower and K<<1. This is why the hc amp trinket with 9% on everything is not really any better compared to same ilvl trinket than the normal or LFR versions are.

To show you how slowly lets redo the calculation with 55k spellpower

1000*0.000104157691/(1+0.000104157691*55000) = 0.015479677928. An increase of 10% in spellpower is only an 8% drop in the conversion.

1800 intellect at 520 ilvl (~40k spellpower) is a 4.75% increase. At 580 ilvl (~60k spellpower) it is a 3.4%. This is though with zero overheal. The diminishing returns on spellpower just don't work like you think at all. Also the value of intellect decreases with overheal, which needs to be taken into account (see below). The 1350 odd intellect you need for a 3% increase at 50k spellpower becomes 3.6% at 40k spellpowerl and 2.6% at 60k spellpower. It would take 110k intellect before it is busted down to 1.5%. I.e. you need your spellpower to nearly tripple in order to cut its value by half.

Notice how you need MORE intellect at 60k spellpower to produce a given increase in healing, but the cleave and amp trinkets pretty much produce the same % increase no matter how much spellpower you have.

Thus the more spellpower you have the better the trinkets are compared with a flat intellect value, because they scale as % points. I took a low value of spellpower to calculate a minimum ceiling. This is the best case scenario effectively.

1000 intellect increases crit by 0.44%, which is ~0.4% healing with 30% aegis and 30% crit. This is why I am ignoring it, an extra thing to calculate that only changes things by +/- 15% or so.

1350 intellect produces a 3% increase at 50k spellpower AT ZERO OVERHEAL. At 30% overheal and assuming linear losses, which is not necessarily valid, you would need 1930 intellect to produce a 3% increase. Based on a more complex modeling of overheal I estimate that you would need ~1800 intellect (not spellpower) for a 3% increase when your overheal is 30%. This modelling includes the 0.8% extra crit you get from 1800 intellect.

When I say multistrike above I mean cleave. The multistrike trinket looks ok on paper, but suffers greatly from overhealing, so it may not work well for holy. The cleave trinket is less good on.

I am always happy to discuss, but with numbers. If you just want to tell me what your gut instinct says, without bothering to do even rudimentary calculations or at least reading through mine, is not a discussion.

If you feel that my model is not valid, feel free to provide your own estimate and lets see if its different.