LFR -> Flex -> Normal -> Heroic: Why?

[Fluorescent0]

Oh that's easy. It's called alts. That way the guy who plays little can have meaningful progression but the somebody who puts more effort into it can have alts to continue progression. Hell it's not like were asking for BiS or anything just a casual friendly alternative that provides as much character advancement as raiding does. They did that for years. Catch up dungeons and valor. Giving "more" to people who play for absurd amounts of time or play at absurd difficulties shouldn't be the developers concern since those people represent obvious minorities and obvious extremes. Ultimately that's damaging to keeping mass appeal and not sustainable anyway. You'll never keep the guy who plays 30 hours a week entertained on one toon.

So basically you're going to tell people "Hey, you know this class you really like, the one you chose to start with? Want to play more with it? Go ahead, but it serves no purpose. If you want to advance play that other class you didn't like at first". Heck, casuals are given progression over the course of an entire patch. It's not as meaningful (if we're talking itemlevels) as a raider one gets (and that's arguable, because if you don't consider LFR for casuals then you're effectively going from 489 valor gear to 516 heroic scenarios/522 valor gear) but it's progression for sure, and one they won't be completing anytime soon since, you know, they're casuals, so they're only going to play occasionally.

[Glorious Leader]

So basically you're going to tell people "Hey, you know this class you really like, the one you chose to start with? Want to play more with it? Go ahead, but it serves no purpose. If you want to advance play that other class you didn't like at first". Heck, casuals are given progression over the course of an entire patch. It's not as meaningful (if we're talking itemlevels) as a raider one gets (and that's arguable, because if you don't consider LFR for casuals then you're effectively going from 489 valor gear to 516 heroic scenarios/522 valor gear) but it's progression for sure, and one they won't be completing anytime soon since, you know, they're casuals, so they're only going to play occasionally.

Yes because that's more reasonable than telling everybody else "hey so this one guy who plays only one spec and only one toon and doesn't pvp (cause if he did he'd have plenty to do without worrying about running out of things to do) is bored so we have to cater to him and well fuck the rest of you". Casuals aren't given enough meaningful progression. In fact what their offered is far to time consuming and offers to little reward that they can bank on. They've been told in this expansion that their time isn't as valuable as it was in the past and subsequently they left. Casuals are given JACK SHIT this expansion. It was just a shell game. They play occasionally, find that their is next to no progression that is reliable and they can accomplish in a reasonable manner and that what is available to them that is reliable isn't even remotely good as catch up (under ilvl and often poorly itemized bullshit). Hell they don't even have any new valor gear next patch. I don't understand how anybody can say it's casual friendly when REALLY casual friendly systems (like valor gear offered at current ilvl) is being REMOVED ENTIRELY from the game. It's a massive regression to really casual unfriendly days.

To say this expansion is casual friendly is DENIAL. Especially relative to how casual friendly wotlk and to a lesser extent cataclysm were. those had actual casual friendly systems in place that didn't punish you if you played casually and skipped raiding. They've tried to make raiding a casual friendly thing so that ultimately they could keep raiding but it's not fooling anybody. Bring back the alternate form of progression that people were used to in cataclysm and wrath and let the players decide for themselves which way they want to progress. GIVE PEOPLE ACTUAL ALTERNATIVES to raiding. If that means raiding goes out the window oh well.

[Fluorescent0]

They don't have any new valor gear, but they're getting flex and 535 timeless isle gear (one piece per one/two hours doesn't seem bad, considered you can play those as fragmented as you want). Previously catchup gear only was up to the last tier's normalmode gear. They're getting heroic-equivalent gear next patch and you're still telling me there's not enough progression?

[Glorious Leader]

They don't have any new valor gear, but they're getting flex and 535 timeless isle gear (one piece per one/two hours doesn't seem bad, considered you can play those as fragmented as you want). Previously catchup gear only was up to the last tier's normalmode gear. They're getting heroic-equivalent gear next patch and you're still telling me there's not enough progression?

That gear was bought with justice points which you could acquire at a ridiculously easy rate. The VALOR they could spend as CURRENT PROGRESSION (not catch up). It's now been reversed. Justice doesn't offer last tiers gear, it offers nothing and the currency they could use as an alternative form of progression to raiding is well gone and not used for that. It's used as catch up.

I'm sorry you try and defend this as much as you want but the simple fact is that in shoving people into lfr they've basically removed the alternative (casual friendly alternative) that had existed for years. Now obviously casuals left because well hey the game is less friendly for them. Basically your acknowledging the game is in fact less casual friendly but your trying to justify it on the grounds that isn't that enough for them. Well obviously not if casuals aren't engaged. Like I said bring back cataclysm catch up and offer players valor gear (including tier pieces) that's current from this tier at least normal equivalent ilvl. Also undo most of the changes made to valor. 7 dungeons (or whatever equivalent activity) should cap you. Increase the rate at which you acquire it and also increase the cap by about 250. If it means people skip raiding OH WELL. If it means thats to fast for that one guy OH WELL.

[Fluorescent0]

Valor will be used for item upgrades, bringing the timeless isle gear to 543. I really don't see an issue with this and you evidently do, so I guess we can just agree that we disagree and move on. Oh and timeless isle gear doesn't use valor, it uses timeless coins. Therefore valor won't be catchup.

[tru]

Because the crowd the played in vanilla and BC was a very very.... different crowd. This game is a joke of its former self. And rightfully so because of the new..."breed" / "age" of gamer that the game beckons to. You got a game made to please everyone and in the process it has pissed off a lot of people. its lost 4 million subs across 2 xpacs now. WoW is a horrible joke that I refuse to be the punch line for anymore. I feel ridiculed every time i log in I feel ashamed to have been part of something so great for so long that it has deteriorated into its current state.

[Glorious Leader]

Valor will be used for item upgrades, bringing the timeless isle gear to 543. I really don't see an issue with this and you evidently do, so I guess we can just agree that we disagree and move on. Oh and timeless isle gear doesn't use valor, it uses timeless coins. Therefore valor won't be catchup.

You don't see how it's less casual friendly that justice points are now worthless and valor is next to worthless? When before they were incredible powerful and could offer players alternatives to raiding (the least casual friendly activity in the game by far) so much so that they opted out on raiding? Okay man agree to disagree I guess.

[Fluorescent0]

You don't see how it's less casual friendly that justice points are now worthless and valor is next to worthless? When before they were incredible powerful and could offer players alternatives to raiding (the least casual friendly activity in the game by far) so much so that they opted out on raiding? Okay man agree to disagree I guess.

Justice has been made useless but in the new patch a system which provides more rewards than them has been implemented. That's not really a loss is it, unless you liked that blue icon a lot I guess.
Valor has been devaluated in the patch, true. Item upgrades aren't however minimal character progression, they're pretty meaningful (or you wouldn't see the greatly increased number of kills on raidbosses after they were implemented).

[Glorious Leader]

Justice has been made useless but in the new patch a system which provides more rewards than them has been implemented. That's not really a loss is it, unless you liked that blue icon a lot I guess.
Valor has been devaluated in the patch, true. Item upgrades aren't however minimal character progression, they're pretty meaningful (or you wouldn't see the greatly increased number of kills on raidbosses after they were implemented).

We saw far more increased number of kills on raibosses after direct nerfs to the raids themselves. Hell we still had to have those even with ilvls. Players gained far more in terms of power with stacking buffs AND valor gear purchases. Truth is though if ilvl upgrades haven't stopped anybody from leaving because well upgrading your shitty hand me down gear isn't as satisfying as getting a new piece of gear. The valor system before allowed you to get NEW pieces of loot (including tier pieces I might add) which was far more rewarding then simple upgrading an old piece which has very little tangible reward. I mean it's basically trading one number for another. Yay....not

It's a loss period. All the systems they've added up to this point are well trying to play catch up to the harm they did by nerfing valor and justice and taking the bat to catch up in the game. Bring back dungeons with catch up gear even if it invalidates previous content it's still far more casual friendly than running tot lfr for the millionth fuckign time because of rng. Bring back valor GEAR current at this lvl and bring back justice points for previous tier. This provides the casual player with a wealth of rewards, it insures that they will ALWAYS get payed out for their time invested (what they can invest), it has that added bonus of streamlinng everything so you know exactly where to go to get your reward and exactly what to do get it, and lastly it provides a meaningful alternative to raiding that the game is in desperate need of.

[Deleted]

I partly agree with the OP. There shouldn't be an LFR, can't say anything for Flex but I imagine it would be some sort of the same crap as LFR is. It's simply pathetic that even now, 1 week away from the new patch, some kids still don't have a single clue on the simplest LFR tactics; the gaze in Durumu is a known example of noobs failing. The only reason so many difficulties exist is simply because Blizzard earns money from the so called casuals, which in reality there are just incompetent face-rollers. And obviously you don't HAVE to do LFR, but you will. Unless of course you are in a top guild which also has 200 SKILLED members in total, thus aside from your main run you'll be able to run 2-3 alt runs. If such a guild exists and you happen to be a part of, you're simply damn lucky. Me being in a top 10M raiding guild, I find it impossible not to pug with my 3 alts. And if you pug, you can't go with blues, cause no one will ever take you even if you have every boss with world first hc kill on your main. Therefore you are basically forced to do LFR and co-exist with every possible retard there is out there, as well as having the tedious ''obligation'' to kill the same bosses over and over and over again.

[Normie]

Therefore you are basically forced to do LFR and co-exist with every possible retard there is out there, as well as having the tedious ''obligation'' to kill the same bosses over and over and over again.

Hey, dude, does it occur to you that other players without your snowflake pedigree might be tired of LFR too?

[Deja Thoris]

It's simply pathetic that even now, 1 week away from the new patch, some kids still don't have a single clue on the simplest LFR tactics; the gaze in Durumu is a known example of noobs failing.

Whats pathetic is that you can't even conceive that somebody failing is because they are there for the first time. The logical conclusion to jump to in your reality is that they've run lfr since week one, faitlhfully ran thru the beam and died screaming "wtf that's the 36th time that's happened to me now!!!"

You may (or may not be) a top raider but you're post shows a complete inability to perceive things from another perspective.

[Lolcraft]

They just need to completely remove LFR and replace it with flex IMO.

[Normie]

Whats pathetic is that you can't even conceive that somebody failing is because they are there for the first time. The logical conclusion to jump to in your reality is that they've run lfr since week one, faitlhfully ran thru the beam and died screaming "wtf that's the 36th time that's happened to me now!!!"

You may (or may not be) a top raider but you're post shows a complete inability to perceive things from another perspective.

As far as explaining the mechanic goes, I suspect that these normal/heroic raiders who are complaining about how could some LFR noob possibly not understand Durumu are not remembering their own "training" in how to do it -- however many videos watched, however many pulls to get the boss down the first time, WITH VENT, strategies discussed in the raid, et cetera.

LFR has none of those advantages. That's why it is tuned easy. But the 50k ticks will still kill you, over time. And the path through eyesore is quite difficult to see especially if you aren't on it, at least until you have got the knack of it (which takes a while).

- - - Updated - - -

They just need to completely remove LFR and replace it with flex IMO.

That may be your O but it won't be happening.

[Mormolyce]

Sigh. Must every thread like this turn into a big bitch session about "OMG LFR kiddies so stupid RARRRRRR delete it!!!"?

It's queued content, you're going to get a mix of people of different skill levels and differing familiarity with the raid. And a few trolls. Quit (a) whining and (b) blaming Blizzard for what players are like.

You don't see how it's less casual friendly that justice points are now worthless and valor is next to worthless? When before they were incredible powerful and could offer players alternatives to raiding (the least casual friendly activity in the game by far) so much so that they opted out on raiding? Okay man agree to disagree I guess.

LFR is the most casual friendly activity in the game by far... hell it requires less effort than questing. Your arguments about VP only make sense if you refuse to even do LFR. Which, well I guess you're free to do, but don't be surprised you can't access new gear if you refuse to do a huge part of the game.

[felcommander]

If ur an Heroic raider why would u do LFR and Flex?? (except maybe for alts)

Heroic raiders will be doing flex at the start of the tier unfortunately, especially for tier gear as well as some of the better trinkets.

[Glorious Leader]

LFR is the most casual friendly activity in the game by far... hell it requires less effort than questing. Your arguments about VP only make sense if you refuse to even do LFR. Which, well I guess you're free to do, but don't be surprised you can't access new gear if you refuse to do a huge part of the game.

Nope not even close. I mean pet battles are technically more casual friendly really so is brawlers guild but those activities award dick all for gear. Lvling is also insanely casual friendly relative to that (it takes no time to get started and is piss easy). Riading in every form is the least casual friendly activity in the game. Making it the focus of so much of warcrafts end game (while simultaneously curtailing and removing the alternative avenues of progression) has hurt the casual players ability to progress.

The argument made about VP is universal to warcraft LFR or not. The developers have seen fit to make raiding the premier content and anything and everything that takes away from that must be taken away or made to not be as good or as rewarding.

[clevin]

m they did by nerfing valor and justice and taking the bat to catch up in the game. Bring back dungeons with catch up gear even if it invalidates previous content it's still far more casual friendly than running tot lfr for the millionth fuckign time because of rng. Bring back valor GEAR current at this lvl and bring back justice points for previous tier. This provides the casual player with a wealth of rewards, it insures that they will ALWAYS get payed out for their time invested (what they can invest), it has that added bonus of streamlinng everything so you know exactly where to go to get your reward and exactly what to do get it, and lastly it provides a meaningful alternative to raiding that the game is in desperate need of.

Oh bullshit. What it does is let people gear up tons of alts far too easily and it makes anyone who's spent any time gearing look like an idiot. People who are casual don't NEED catch up gear if they've been playing somewhat regularly. What you're talking about aren't casuals, it's people who took some substantial time off. And you know what? If you take time off, you might have to invest some time to catch up. You're on about progress, but you seem to want it without putting in time or effort. That eventually makes a game dull - "sure I can raid this tier or I can run LFR, see the content quit and come back next tier. I won't fall behind in gear because I'll run a few 5 mans and have gear just as good as most normal mode raiders..."

[Deja Thoris]

Nope not even close. I mean pet battles are technically more casual friendly really so is brawlers guild but those activities award dick all for gear. Lvling is also insanely casual friendly relative to that (it takes no time to get started and is piss easy). Riading in every form is the least casual friendly activity in the game. Making it the focus of so much of warcrafts end game (while simultaneously curtailing and removing the alternative avenues of progression) has hurt the casual players ability to progress.

The argument made about VP is universal to warcraft LFR or not. The developers have seen fit to make raiding the premier content and anything and everything that takes away from that must be taken away or made to not be as good or as rewarding.

VP gear is the same ilevel, you just miss the set bonuses. If you aren't raiding you don't need them. It's still progression. You can get a good ilevel so you can molest quest mobs or whatever takes your fancy if you don't raid.

It's a complete no-brainer that you won't be geared as well as a hc raider which I suspect is the cut-off point that would satisfy you.

Edit: Actually I'm curious to know what would satisfy you? Genuine question.

[Glorious Leader]

Oh bullshit. What it does is let people gear up tons of alts far too easily and it makes anyone who's spent any time gearing look like an idiot. People who are casual don't NEED catch up gear if they've been playing somewhat regularly. What you're talking about aren't casuals, it's people who took some substantial time off. And you know what? If you take time off, you might have to invest some time to catch up. You're on about progress, but you seem to want it without putting in time or effort. That eventually makes a game dull - "sure I can raid this tier or I can run LFR, see the content quit and come back next tier. I won't fall behind in gear because I'll run a few 5 mans and have gear just as good as most normal mode raiders..."

It's not about need and never was. The game simple doesn't reward casual players enough. In an effort to give some players more to do and to make raiding the premier content that EVERYONE does valor and casual reward overall had to take a fucking backseat.

- - - Updated - - -

VP gear is the same ilevel, you just miss the set bonuses.. If you aren't raiding you don't need them. It's still progression. You can get a good ilevel so you can molest quest mobs or whatever takes your fancy if you don't raid.

It's a complete no-brainer that you won't be geared as well as a hc raider which I suspect is the cut-off point that would satisfy you.

Edit: Actually I'm curious to know what would satisfy you? Genuine question.

VP gear isn't the same ilvl anymore. In fact next patch it's gonna be behind. It'll be basically what you spent justice points for in the previous expansions It's not about need and never was, it's about giving players who don't want to raid an alternative to not raiding. The "alternatives" or what the developers call that all simple lead to raiding and that's by design. TO be honest players who aren't raiding probably need the set bonuses and that better gear more. I thought normal and hc raiders were the pinnacle of player ability? Your telling me you need gear now?

What would satisfy is what we had in cataclysm. Dungeons with gear, justice points to buy last tier, and valor points that buy current ilvl and tier pieces.