Lore Speculation: Old God Origins and Azeroth

[babo7000]

Note: Though everything is based of known lore, there is a lot of speculation done in this post. Don't take it all as fact.

Dave Kosak mentioned in the Jesse Cox interview that we know of the origins of the Old Gods, and that the info we have is meant to be contradictory, but does point to a final conclusion. I immediately started thinking of where Old Gods could be from. It reminded me of another interview he did in which he mentioned the Titan's killed many Old Gods. This goes against the 3-5 we've been told existing. Then I started thinking of things like http://wowpedia.org/Iso'rath, and what exactly they were. That's when the speculation began.

Origins

The Old Gods have been called outside the cycle. They cannot be killed in the usual sense, as shown in Y'Shaarj, who is still essentially alive. It was confirmed (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...94?page=13#260), that the only way to kill an Old God would be to somehow erase it from existence. That means only one thing to me, the Old Gods do not reside in the normal realm.

This is where I get crazy. Opposite to the Naaru, who I believe come from a separate realm of 'Light', the Old Gods are from a realm of 'Chaos'. This is why the Old Gods thrive in it, and there number one desire to bring the world to it. Old Gods do not fly to a planet or arrive there. They simply appear; Manifest.

Iso'rath, and the other's like him in Dragon Soul, (also other minions like http://wowpedia.org/Soggoth_the_Slitherer), are Old Gods. The thing is, they were defeated and/or imprisoned before they had the chance to manifest on Azeroth completely. The more an Old God manifest, the more ingrained with the planet it becomes, the more powerful it is. Old Gods like Y'Shaarj, C'thun, Yogg-Saron, and most notably N'Zoth, are all heavily if not completely ingrained with the planet, hence there power and influence.

War with the Titans

The Old Gods were on Azeroth first. I base this off the existence of http://wowpedia.org/Contents_of_Mosh%27Ogg_Bounty, which is believed to be 150,000 years old, the oldest known date in WoW, and is believed to be from an Old God. Sargeras turning the Eredar was a priority after becoming a demon. He did this 25,000 years ago.

I don't know if it has been confirmed Sargeras never stepped foot on Azeroth, but I doubt he spent over 125,000 years searching for the Eredar, which he would have had to if he was on Azeroth with the Pantheon, fighting the Old Gods.

Anyways, here's how I believed it happened. The Titans arrived at Azeroth during the time of the Old Gods reign. They thought nothing of the Old Gods and there minions, who they simply believed to be mortal monstrosities. They defeated and killed many of them (obviously, the lesser Old Gods such as Iso'rath and Soggoth), and seeing a large number of them gone set out on fixing the planet. They made their constructs and complexes, and began shaping the land. This is when they realized they made a vital mistaken in how they dealt with the Old Gods.

There constructs were becoming fleshy, the 'monsters' seemed to be returning, and the Elements began taking shape and attacking the Titans. This began the war of the Titans and the Old Gods, where the Titans realized killing the big ones had horrible consequences. It was after defeating and imprisoning the Old Gods and their Elemental Lords, that the Titans created Azeroth as we know it (sorta). They let certain races (Earthen) live free, and others like Troggs get imprisoned.

The Mogu and Vykrul turned fleshy and mortal AFTER the titans left. I have a feeling that what they refer to as Gods more than often enough is the Titan Watchers, more specifically Ra'den for the Mogu and Thorim for the Vykrul.

Anyways, thoughts?

[miffy23]

Most of what you speculate on is pretty much assumed or implied by the current canon lore. Old gods already being here, Titans discovering them, defeating them, realizing the consequences and so on and so forth. And the gods those races mention are in fact the Titans, as has been revealed during many mini-events, like the origin of the Mogu story told by Cho.

So, not much speculation and just summary of what is assumed to be true right now based on the existing evidence ^^ Could all be a setup for a major plot twist or reveal anyway, Kosak said himself he can't answer definitely what came first - Old Gods or Titans, without revealing too much of the plot and future of WoW, so we can all look forward to that.

[babo7000]

Most of what you speculate on is pretty much assumed or implied by the current canon lore. Old gods already being here, Titans discovering them, defeating them, realizing the consequences and so on and so forth. And the gods those races mention are in fact the Titans, as has been revealed during many mini-events, like the origin of the Mogu story told by Cho.

So, not much speculation and just summary of what is assumed to be true right now based on the existing evidence ^^ Could all be a setup for a major plot twist or reveal anyway, Kosak said himself he can't answer definitely what came first - Old Gods or Titans, without revealing too much of the plot and future of WoW, so we can all look forward to that.

Yes, he said he himself couldn't reveal it. But he also said that evidence exists that point to the answer. This post was a speculation of what that evidence leads to.

[Kassadin]

If the titans did come before the Old Gods, then Azeroth is royally screwed. It means the Old Gods are aliens and there's the possibility of thousands existing aside from the few we do know.

Would be awesome if they turn out to be a by product of the Titan's planetary terraforming.

[Septik]

If the titans did come before the Old Gods, then Azeroth is royally screwed. It means the Old Gods are aliens and there's the possibility of thousands existing aside from the few we do know.

Would be awesome if they turn out to be a by product of the Titan's planetary terraforming.

You should play the deadspace series

[Phasma]

What about Elune, "Dark" Naaru, and all of the demons? I think the origin of the Warcraft Universe goes deeper than the Titans, Naaru, and Old Gods. Although, I do speculate the Old Gods are older than the Titans.

Edit: Old Gods (the chaotic ones we know of) might have been experiments and Titans were the final product.

As for Elune, I think she is an experiment that is either half way between a Titan and an Old God or something better than both.

[Golden Yak]

The Old Gods are said to be from another realm and must be summoned into the 'material plane', so OP's right on that score.

I suspect they're more the 'chaos' counterpart to the Titans 'order', rather than being opposites to the Light of the naaru.

My theory re.: the naaru is that they were once a singular being that was similar to Elune, and they were 'shattered' into fragments, each fragment becoming an individual naaru. Hence when they seem somewhat similar to Elune, while presumably being much less powerful.

[Caerule]

The Old Gods seem to predate pretty much anything, probably even the universe dividing into Shadow and Light. They seem to exist in a realm of Twilight, and wield its energies.

My theory is that the Titans may be constructs that they created at some point. If they are the "Old Gods" then the Titans are the "New Gods". The Old Gods are the original race, and are yet countless, but their god-constructs saw the universe in a very different light, and in their form of benevolence, seek to bring structure and life to a universe that was lacking.

As for who arrived first on Azeroth, it would seem that the Titans were here in the very beginning, to make the planet habitable and seed it with life. Then returned when things were going wrong, to discover the Old God infestation. The first visit to make Azeroth a life-bearing planet was likely waaaay before the second return, leaving no record of their first visit left to find, except the Titans' own knowledge of it, stored in databases like the Tribunal of Ages.

That's what I'm lead to believe, based on the current evidence, anyway.

[Anvilwright]

[I]Anyways, here's how I believed it happened. The Titans arrived at Azeroth during the time of the Old Gods reign. They thought nothing of the Old Gods and there minions, who they simply believed to be mortal monstrosities. They defeated and killed many of them (obviously, the lesser Old Gods such as Iso'rath and Soggoth), and seeing a large number of them gone set out on fixing the planet. They made their constructs and complexes, and began shaping the land. This is when they realized they made a vital mistaken in how they dealt with the Old Gods.

There constructs were becoming fleshy, the 'monsters' seemed to be returning, and the Elements began taking shape and attacking the Titans. This began the war of the Titans and the Old Gods, where the Titans realized killing the big ones had horrible consequences. It was after defeating and imprisoning the Old Gods and their Elemental Lords, that the Titans created Azeroth as we know it (sorta). They let certain races (Earthen) live free, and others like Troggs get imprisoned.

The Mogu and Vykrul turned fleshy and mortal AFTER the titans left. I have a feeling that what they refer to as Gods more than often enough is the Titan Watchers, more specifically Ra'den for the Mogu and Thorim for the Vrykul.

Good read and I agree with most of what was said. I also theorized a similar line of events myself based off of what was said in Uldaman and Ulduar.

The Lore Keeper of Norgannon in Uldaman explains to us what happened to the Earthen when a "matrix destabilization" occurred, giving the Titans two different results: the trogg and the dwarf. The system they were using to create these earthen had been rendered, as the Tribunal of Ages states. Which means the Old Gods were definitely on Azeroth at the time of them creating the first Earthen. However, the Lore Keeper doesn't refer to the matrix destabilization once in the term the Tribunal gave it, the Curse of Flesh. Also, when asked "What high-stress environments would cause the Earthen to destabilize?" the Lore Keeper doesn't have an answer for it.

The Lore Keeper doesn't have this information because at the time, the Titans didn't know what was causing the destabilization. Eventually they abandoned Uldaman, explaining why it's empty, leaving behind the failed experiments and the titan watchers watching over the city the time we encounter it in World of Warcraft.

The Titans fight the war with the Old Gods. During this time they figure out it was them who were causing their constructs to become fleshy, eventually defeating them. They created Ulduar after they defeated the Old Gods, creating the Forge of Wills to create new earthen and explaining why the Tribunal of Ages had the updated information, knowing exactly what high-stress environment (the Old Gods) caused the matrix destabilization, whereas the Lore Keeper seemingly didn't in Uldaman. Then they shaped the world as we know it today, as you stated, with the Earthen along with all the other seed races (which at a later date after the Titans left, became fleshy as well due to the Curse of Flesh).

[Futhark]

This is, like, the third Old God thread today. Can we keep in in one?

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...f-the-Old-Gods