RPPM Good or Bad?

[Warstar]

I actually like RPPM. I prefer some variability. ICD is too formulaic.

The real problem here is how powerful trinkets are.

Trinkets have always been powerful and have always been an item that people will bank DKP or brown nose an officer on the loot council for. Both weapons and trinkets have the most single effect on a persons dps in the game. Weapons are obvious as to why and trinkets add a "fun" component to your armor aside from more stats. Trinkets are getting out of hand but that's more of an ilv stat bloat than anything else. If you're lv 60 and have a comparable proc your dps might go up a hundred? Which isn't anything at all but when you're level 90 and get your proc and you get 10's of thousands of dps (not counting the opener) while comparatively it's the same your initial thought is "OMG BIG NUMBERS!"

And speaking of big numbers that the thing that people play for and why a lot of people play with damage up so they can see themselves critting like a BAMF. Pulling insane dps is why dps enjoy playing the game not sitting in a raid of people doing 200k and pulling 20k...

People enjoy having control over their character. That's where skill comes into play is knowing how to line up your abilities with procs and what not. When you have a possibility that your CDs just came up and your trinket can either proc now or within 90 seconds there's no way that you should logically hold onto your CD because then you have a high risk of getting less major CDs in a fight which is an even bigger loss of dps.

Randomly being awesome for no other reason that luck is stupid. There's no skill involved at all.

Being awesome because you're awesome is so much better because then you know that you topped those meters because you played like a champ and you nailed everything you were supposed to. You didn't screw up your rotation once and you made sure all your stuff lined up perfectly.

[Tissel]

Blizzard should just remove the entire RPPM system.


Or they could change it again for the tenth time LOLOLOLOL.

[moveth]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...547577?page=21

Check my posts here (Subvatio) to see what I think of it. It's a complete waste of time and does nothing that Blizzard thinks it does. They seem to think that RPPM separates the good players from the bad, but for 90% of specs, a trinket proc doesnt do ANYTHING when its completely random.

Previously, knowing that a trinket had X seconds to proc meant I could look at an ability and go "Well, I can prolong this for 2 seconds til my trinket procs and do more dps with it than using it right this second." Now they dont mean anything. You either ignore the fact that they are proccing completely, or your class is literally broken by the trinket (RoRo for WW/Feral/Sub or UVLS for Demo). There is no in between and it doesn't do anything to help out the "good vs bad" players. All it does is make my boomkins burst either 600k or 300k depending on if Breath and Cha-Ye want to proc when I pop CA or not.

[Deleted]

I like how on some fights a certain trinket (UVLS) always procs during moments i cannot use it.

Like on a nest on Jikun, Just as the heads disapear on Meg, and i swear i always get 1-2 procs during transitions on Lei Shen >.<

[moveth]

I have got to the point where I removed my Weakauras for my trinkets because they simply don't matter as a boomkin. They will either proc correctly and Ill be top 10 dps or they wont and Ill be bottom.

[jtstormrage]

Agree with most people. RPPM has really reduced the enjoyability of raiding for me.

One of the greatest pleasures of raiding is being able to compete with others and/or measure by performance against previous weeks and try to improve. RPPM makes output completely RNG and put it more down to luck than skill. I absolutely hate that.

[Yizu]

Arcane mage + alter time + rppm trinkets is the most frustrating ever. Alter time is good coz it can extend procs, but its bad if your trinket proc inside the 6 second window altertime will eat it. As arcane we cant really fish for procs endlessly coz our high damage has a ramp up time to get there, and staying on high damage drains mana.

When u thought u waited long enough for a trinket proc and you really need a burst you just "/pray trinket wont proc for 6 seconds" then as soon as you pop cds+altertime, the trinket fucks with you and procs on the next spell in the middle of alter time, after 6 seconds goodbye buff FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!

[Kulestu]

I'm pretty sick of getting stuck with 250k burst on the pull because Juju decided to not proc the entire fight and Renataki's decided to proc after SB/Vendetta and pre-pot fell.

[Koji2k11]

I'm pretty sick of getting stuck with 250k burst on the pull because Juju decided to not proc the entire fight and Renataki's decided to proc after SB/Vendetta and pre-pot fell.

in our 25man raid its always lke this one of the rogues gets a proc the other doesn't and falls behind by like 5-7 million damage this is a sadistic way from blizzard telling us how we can fuck off with our complaints

[mongoose6]

if Haste made RPPM more reliable to the point it was predictable, well it wouldn't have been that bad.

Actually I think part of the problem with RPPM trinkets is the reliance on a set secondary stat to make them more usefull. Classes and specs that do not naturally value haste are at a disadvantage.

[Coldkil]

Actually I think part of the problem with RPPM trinkets is the reliance on a set secondary stat to make them more usefull. Classes and specs that do not naturally value haste are at a disadvantage.

Agree - but still if the mechanic was implemented in a "correct" and more reliable way, you could have the "option" to roll double RPPM trinkets and go for a haste build or go with standard trinkets and "standard" stat scaling.

The problems about RPPM and haste are the double-dipping thing and the fact that haste doesn't reduce RNG at all.

[Deleted]

I rly hate RPPM system also.. Its the worst trinket mechanic.. Thats why im going for iCD trinkets at SoO even at papers RPPM will be better

[Warstar]

Agree - but still if the mechanic was implemented in a "correct" and more reliable way, you could have the "option" to roll double RPPM trinkets and go for a haste build or go with standard trinkets and "standard" stat scaling.

The problems about RPPM and haste are the double-dipping thing and the fact that haste doesn't reduce RNG at all.

It's retarded. Haste for assassination especially really only reduces probability that you'll get bad luck streaks by making you attack faster but doesn't guarantee that during a fight you'll actually get extra procs. Even combat that stacks exclusively haste can get runs of bad luck that drops their dps down extremely far and then an assassination rogue stacking mastery and crit could get a lucky pull and with awesome luck proc their trinkets more than a haste stacker.

A class like a demo lock that has a major CD metamorphosis can actively turn that CD on and off with trinket procs. They're not tied to their CD and have to wait a full 3 minutes for it to come off but with really good planning they can take full use of every trinket proc and every trinket proc have some sort of CD up for it. Same thing with a destro lock banking embers. CD and/or trinket procs and they can lay out some insane chaos bolt damage.

Most other classes get in opportune procs and most of the time end up with a proc at the end of a phase or not lined up with CDs making it rather boring and frustrating for a player whose actually trying to line up his stuff.

A combat rogue especially in SoO might be able to make better use of the RPPM trinkets just due to the fact that they have a lot shorter CDs and with that CD reduction trinket those will be even lower so probability wise they'll be in a trinket proc more often than an assassination rogue... although since it's all RNG and there aren't any guaranteed procs at the pull anymore a combat rogue with their multitudes of CDs runs the same risk that they'll get a trinket proc in between each one of their CDs and be complete malarkey. Assassination just sucks though with their longer CDs it's almost garunteed that the trinkets wont be up for your CDs and if they happen to be just be happy that you got lucky but don't rely on it. Sub will probably get decent usage too since they have a short CD on shadow dance and if they get a lucky proc or just plan it well they could get so me crazy damage out of a big proc lining up with some expose weakness time.

[mongoose6]

I would argue that combat actaully suffers the most from the RPPM system. Combat rogues need to use thier CD's as soon as possible making it impossible to game trinket procs. Assas on the other hand can look at a fight that they know will last around X Minutes, determine that they can use Vendetta and SB Y times. This allows a little wiggle room on CD usage.

I know this is a rogue specific discussion, but the ones I truly feel sorry for are warriors. My prot warrior gets 0 benefit from haste and giving up even 1 point of crit for any amount of haste in my fury spec would hurt my soul. When (not if) I beat a warrior's dps on my rogue, I want to know its because I was able to play to the best of my abilities, not because my trinkets, meta, chants, and cloak get to benefit from a stat that is useless to the warrior and gives strong benefit to me.

[Warstar]

I would argue that combat actaully suffers the most from the RPPM system. Combat rogues need to use thier CD's as soon as possible making it impossible to game trinket procs. Assas on the other hand can look at a fight that they know will last around X Minutes, determine that they can use Vendetta and SB Y times. This allows a little wiggle room on CD usage.

I know this is a rogue specific discussion, but the ones I truly feel sorry for are warriors. My prot warrior gets 0 benefit from haste and giving up even 1 point of crit for any amount of haste in my fury spec would hurt my soul. When (not if) I beat a warrior's dps on my rogue, I want to know its because I was able to play to the best of my abilities, not because my trinkets, meta, chants, and cloak get to benefit from a stat that is useless to the warrior and gives strong benefit to me.

Unless they changed it the meta does have different proc rates per spec so that doesn't hurt as bad.

And I was saying combat should have a better time since they have more time inside a proc so they have more chances for that to be inside a trinket proc compared to most assassination rogues who don't even track trinkets anymore and just use their CDs when they have optimal up time (like 30 seconds of uptime on vendetta).

[Verain]

ICD = i can somewhat predict thr proc and save cooldowns/pot to line them up and get better performance
on-use = i can delay this trinket for the burst phase or avoid using it before tran sition to get optimal uptime
RPPM = HURR DURR I PROC WHEN I CARE MORE BUT HEY YOU CAN GET DOUBLE PROC DURING FLYING PHASES

Gods, this post so fucking much.


So, I'll try to say some good things about RPPM.


1- It's nice to get a proc when you aren't expecting it and can use it.

2- When combined with anything else besides "derp proc", it becomes cool. The current (about to be nerfed) model of blades is pleasing about this, because when it happens, you have time to respond. You see the blades build up, and you pool your combo points, then your energy. Then, with blades high, you wail out all your finishers. That's a reward for playing correctly that you don't have with the older model, but mostly just blades has this power.

3- The trinkets can give you a more powerful run than you are expecting. If you see your trinket suddenly proc proc proc a bunch, you can really clean up on that attempt. This can make a farm fight kind of fun, when it otherwise wouldn't have been.

4- It adds some RNG to a class that normally kinda lacks it.

5- If you have a trinket that says: Has C mastery. Proc: A agility, and this trinket is ICD, on use, or RPPM, you would expect the RPPM version to have the highest value for A. It would be, on average, the best trinket, or no one would use it, right? So it is a way for a more powerful trinket to land in that spot. Next tier we might actually see this choice, instead of being forced away.




With that out of the way, I think that (1) is cool but rogues are low on the list of being able to capitalize. One of the things I like about mutilate is that it kind of can- combat I sort of think that I would do better if I could prerecord the whole rotation. But other classes really have some of this, such as the "cast your dots now for broken meter whoring" proc. I think that (2) is literally just limited to blades and feathers, and both are being nerfed and rapidly replaced next patch, with nothing with anywhere close to the same mechanic, so I don't know if that really counts in favor of RPPM. Certainly, these trinkets would be less interesting with an ICD model. For (3), the obvious mirror is that you don't get the procs you need some of the time- and this can cost you a lot more (it can hurt you on progression, which you spend more of your time on). That's probably going to annoy us more than most classes, (4) because we already chose the class with the good average instead of the high peaks, so adding that in seems odd to do with gear.

What I dislike most is that every subpatch seems to have changed how all of this worked. This thread will look absurd in a year- people might point to it when some new guy comes along and is like "no RPPM has never worked with haste, but has always been boosted by luck" and then you have to explain, no, luck came out later, RPPM was iterated heavily on, and then link him here and everyone's time is wasted because it changed so much just by now that its hard to keep track of.


The biggest boost appears to be, the mouseover of the goddamned macros will finally say how the trinket works, and we will probably see RPPM and ICD in the future, so Blizzard will probably be able to tune them correctly. I hope they don't just tune the RPPM to be SO superior that you don't really have an option.


And finally, RPPM works just fine for hat metagem. I don't think anyone wishes that were ICD based or anything. For something with a high base chance, adding a higher variance isn't going to make you want to scream.

[Count Zero]

That's where skill comes into play is knowing how to line up your abilities with procs and what not.
Randomly being awesome for no other reason that luck is stupid. There's no skill involved at all.

These points are debatable. I think being able to plan out your rotation before your even step into the instance requires less skill than being able to react to things dynamically.

The more prep-time you have, the less skill you need. With ICD / on-use, you can literally use an addon to tell you exactly what to press and exactly when to press it. You can use those same addons to track RPPM procs, but you can't use them to tell you "In 15 seconds you will be pressing...", but rather "(x) is up".

And I don't think it should be about your ability to do awesome on one given fight. If you're truly awesome, no matter how rng rppm/trinkets are, you will consistently rank high across a tier, because everyone is on the same playing field. Someone who has no idea what they're doing is simply not going to have multiple top 100 /50 / 10 / 5 / 3 rankings because they got lucky several times in a row. The people with the highest amount of high rankings will be the people who would have done so anyway.

RNG is a foundation of RPGs. I think if anything, the strength of trinkets needs to be lowered, so that while there is still an RNG element it doesn't have such a strong effect.

[Warstar]

These points are debatable. I think being able to plan out your rotation before your even step into the instance requires less skill than being able to react to things dynamically.

The more prep-time you have, the less skill you need. With ICD / on-use, you can literally use an addon to tell you exactly what to press and exactly when to press it. You can use those same addons to track RPPM procs, but you can't use them to tell you "In 15 seconds you will be pressing...", but rather "(x) is up".

And I don't think it should be about your ability to do awesome on one given fight. If you're truly awesome, no matter how rng rppm/trinkets are, you will consistently rank high across a tier, because everyone is on the same playing field. Someone who has no idea what they're doing is simply not going to have multiple top 100 /50 / 10 / 5 / 3 rankings because they got lucky several times in a row. The people with the highest amount of high rankings will be the people who would have done so anyway.

RNG is a foundation of RPGs. I think if anything, the strength of trinkets needs to be lowered, so that while there is still an RNG element it doesn't have such a strong effect.

Aside from a couple people here and there (mostly warlocks and tanks) that doesn't happen though. The top parses are fully of lucky bastards that have gear. If as you say people who are good are always up there you'd see a lot more people at the top ranking multiple times but you just don't. A rogue in general can't react. If my vendetta and shadow blades are down or have like 20 seconds left on their long CDs and a trinket procs I can do everything I can in my power to increase my dps but nothing will happen because I just literally don't have anything to react to. Or I could sit on my CDs for awhile and wait and wait and wait and sometimes I could get a proc right away and use my CDs and line them up but because of how Murphy's Law works either you'll lose out on CDs over all during the fight or after waiting awhile and finally giving in the proc happens right after your stuff wears off. There's absolutely no skill in the RPPM system with rogues. 0. None. Zilch. Nothing separates the top from the bottom aside from pure dumb luck. I typically lead my raid in DPS 99% of the time but I have a pretty big margin of how much I lead from barely inching out at the end to blowing them out of the water and making them look like a bunch of freshly hit 90 scrubs. Do I do anything differently when I beat them by 50k instead of 1-5k? Not at all. The only difference is RNG luck that's totally out of my control.

Some RNG is good. It mixes things up and can make the difference between an OK fight to a really awesome parse but the RNG in the RPPM system is the difference between crap and chart topping with 0 play style changes which is a horrible system.

[Illiterate]

Too much RNG. I hate it.

[Kael]

There's absolutely no skill in the RPPM system with rogues. 0. None. Zilch. Nothing separates the top from the bottom aside from pure dumb luck. I typically lead my raid in DPS 99% of the time but I have a pretty big margin of how much I lead from barely inching out at the end to blowing them out of the water and making them look like a bunch of freshly hit 90 scrubs. Do I do anything differently when I beat them by 50k instead of 1-5k? Not at all. The only difference is RNG luck that's totally out of my control.

This is the only big issue I have with RPPM. It creates a serious swing state between incredible and mediocre DPS based on a random variable, and it's not just rogues - even using procs right, every class/spec in the game sees massive DPS swings based on timing of procs. If it lines up great, you'll be incredible, and if not, you won't. Our demo locks doing the same thing every pull through p1 on Lei Shen for pulls 100-200 did between 160k and 272k DPS in the first phase, with rogues seeing 40-60k variance, assuming no deaths/DC's. That's a HUGE change from pull to pull.

Unfortunately, the "solution" to RPPM affecting the opening is to set it to 90s since last proc - which does not reduce reliance on the opening proc, merely makes it less likely to occur. You no longer wait 4m between pulls and sit there waiting for a res, but instead you'll have to just pray you get lucky on the opening, in addition to later in the fight...

What I'd really like to see is a haste-altered ICD or more on-use trinkets that don't nicely align with CDs, and possibly more RPPM effects that are not the main attraction on gear. Something like Dancing Steel being RPPM is 100% okay because the benefit is minimal - a feral would ideally want their bleeds to include it, but it won't make or break their DPS like RoR. Having to decide whether to delay a class CD or trinket CD to line them up vs. using one more often but separately is more compelling mentally, and can vary by encounter rather than having an absolute "always align them" response. I could see ICDR-haste being a problem because you'd want an exact value to align with cooldowns, though...