How would you feel about Lor'themar Theron as Warchief?

[Stormdash]

So judging from a cutscene? A cutscene which saw them surrounded by dragons ripping their ships apart? Ashenvale and Northrend were easymode for him.

They were surrounded and torn apart by dragons solely due to Garrosh's idiotic tactical decision before that to leave his troop carriers without fighter cover for a pointless, off-mission attack of opportunity against an Alliance naval squadron. Which, at least not anywhere we were shown, wasn't even destroyed.

As for Northrend, all we see of him in Borean Tundra is Saurfang basically having to spell out the gaping holes in his tactics for him, and then when Garrosh completely, completely misreads the threat on his own doorstep by figuring he can just send you to take care of it, Saurfang has to bail him out again. By all indications, the Northrend campaign is Garrosh being carried by Saurfang.

[dope_danny]

I think its kind of a flaw on blizzards part that the two biggest considered characters for the job are vol'jin and lor'themar. A ranger or a shadow hunter. Its a little too similar. Trouble is all the other options are either too extreme or to inexperienced. Vol'jin says hes better as the right hand, hunting in the shadows for any threats to the horde, and lore'themar is just as vocal about "testing all the paperwork of office" So neither of them actually seems to want the job either.
Personally i think its going to be vol'jin, though i could see blizzard choose lore'themar for more of a counterpart to varian. Time will tell i suppose.

or to be more specific the patch on the 10th

[razorfire]

Maybe there won't be a new Warchief. The Alliance doesn't have any equivalent and they won the war. (High King is not a sovereign title, it is a military title much like Lothar/Turalyon/Daelin Proudmoore's "Supreme Commander" titles during Warcraft 2/3.) Perhaps the horde will have learned that giving one person so much power is futile. Maybe the Warchief position will be abolished and reserved only for dire times of war and emergency. (Much like the Alliance High King/Supreme Commander)

If so, that begs the question, who would be the orc's new racial leader? Furthermore, if there is a new Warchief and they are not an orc, who would the Orc's racial leader be?

Orcs that can fit the roll:
Thrall - Doubt it, hes pure Shaman now)
Saurfang - Doubt it, hes an old warrior, its time for some new blood.
Rexxar - Would be really awesome and workable, but totally left field as the character has had little involvement in WoW entirely in the grand scheme of things.
Eitrigg - He is an old orc, much like Saurfang, but with much less development.
Nazgrim - This seemed like the likely candidate when you look at how much development this character had. But then... he seemingly dies as a raid boss so we can cross him off the list. (Or can we...?)

Judging by all the Nazgrim development and lack of likely orc candidates due noticeable lore presence or age, I would have put my money on Nazgrim as the new orc racial leader. But seeing as he is seemingly dead from the raid I am at a loss for who it could be. Unless Nazgrim somehow survives, I am unsure any of the other orcs on my list being chosen as a racial leader would a good fit.

I am personally opposed to Saurfang being a racial leader due to his age, same with Eitrigg. (Both awesome characters that I love, I just don't see them as the right choice for the job.) The Horde needs some new, young blood to carry the torch. It was Thrall once, but he is not that person any more. In my list, that just leaves Rexxar. An awesome character and truly worthy of being the orc racial leader that I could get behind, it would just feel... out of no where... since Rexxar doesn't exactly have a whole lot of lore, especially since BC.

...I see alot of people saying "no they're old" or "it's time for new blood" whenever an orc racial leader candidate is brought up, in regards to both eitrigg and saurfang....the thing people seem to forget is the entire problem with the orcs that is making a new warchief NECESSARY is "new blood". garrosh didn't engage in any of the fighting the other orcs did, and wasn't raised on azeroth during the aftermath of that fighting, the worst he saw of the downsides of war are that he got called weak by bladefist. the majority of his supporters amongst the orcs are either fanatics from the dark horde or orcs too young to have been in the first and second war. "new blood" is rash, overconfident, and absolutely certain that it deserves everything it can get, "old blood" is cautious, strong when it needs to be, and caring when it's important.

but on topic, lor'themar, and I don't mean to offend his fans as I think he's a good character, should not be warchief. he wasn't really certain of leading his own RACE until they finally made him pass his snapping point in mists. how is he supposed to lead the horde if it takes years of working under an oppressive idiot to make him take a stand?


oh right, and as a reminder, war chief is a term for an ORC leadership position. it's the leader of the new horde largely because thrall and the orcs STARTED the new horde.

[Condemner]

To keep things fresh they should, I wouldnt mind any of em being warchief though as long it's not Thrall again. I would be weird if Thrall want't that role again.

[Cooper]

Yeah, judging Garrosh tactics to invade the Twilight Highland , I wonder how he managed to invade Ashenvale and have succes in Northrend campaign.

Lor'themar seems by far the most logical choice in the personnality aspect for a war tactical leader

Northrend was really Saurfang's doing, not Garrosh's.

[Al Gorefiend]

Really though. Making Mekkatorque high king of the humans and all Alliance-kind makes an equal amount of sense.

[razorfire]

Northrend was really Saurfang's doing, not Garrosh's.

pretty much, garrosh's involvement in any of the good moves by horde during the northrend campaign was actually VERY minimal. saurfang and other levelheaded orcs spent most of their effort during the campaign covering for his mistakes in as subtle a way as they could.

- - - Updated - - -

Really though. Making Mekkatorque high king of the humans and all Alliance-kind makes an equal amount of sense.

especially if you consider dwarves and gnomes are largely mythological races simply cause people way back then didn't understand that whole "height" or "genetics" thing.

[dope_danny]

and he will keep Sylvanas on a short leash, something he already alluded to in SoO.

It would actually be the logical set up to push Sylvanas to do something more storywise. She could get around behind Garroshes back because he was a "i dont care what works if it works" type leader. Lor'themar has seen his people brought to the brink of extinction by a leaders rash actions before and in 5.4 shows he wont abide any of sylvanas more scourge-y tendencies.
He could be enough of a straight man to her crazy to drive her to do something drastic, he was her unerling after all. I imagine she wouldn't bear well with being given orders by someone who she would see as having "gotten off lightly" during the scourging of quel'thalas.

[Barendon]

When you first look at him? Nah. The horde's leader should be savage and fierce and he's just not that. However, we don't know much about him, he was pretty quiet until recently, and he might be a viable leader in the burning legion expansion to work with Varian (who has been confirmed to try and negotiate with the blood elves). All in all, I can't see him moving to Orgrimmar . It just seems wrong.

[Deleted]

The horde's leader should be savage and fierce and he's just not that.

We just had that, didn't work out too well, did it?

[tinyninja]

Really though. Making Mekkatorque high king of the humans and all Alliance-kind makes an equal amount of sense.

So why does it make sense that Varian should be High King? Besides being a human, of course.

Lor'themar is not just a throwaway character that gets a shot at Warchief just for showing up. He's a potential candidate because there are several very compelling reasons why he could be, and no reason why he couldn't be. Is this a 100% sure thing? No of course not, it's almost impossible to predict Blizzard's final decision on these sorts of things, but it's unfair to say he can't be warchief just because he's not an orc, or he's an elf, or he's not the warchief for the Horde.

Some common points I'm seeing:

"But Lor'themar wanted to join the Alliance!"
Because when your people are being persecuted in a way you've sworn to never let happen again, the best decision is to just suck it up and take it, right? Lor'themar wasn't leaving "our" Horde, he was trying to leave Garrosh's True Horde. Lor'themar was simply out of options. In fact, this little argument actually works in favour of Lor'themar for Warchief.

It has to be understood that becoming Warchief so far has pretty much been a "yup, you're it now" affair. For the first time since Doomhammer took the title from Blackhand, someone other than the previous warchief gets to have a say in who it will be. The new Warchief HAS to be someone both factions approve of, I mean, that's the whole point of both factions taking part in this. Now who on the Horde has proven himself in combat and leadership against Garrosh and has also procured powerful blood golems for the Siege when he led the assault on one of the most powerful tyrants Azeroth has ever seen... Huh that would be Lor'themar, I guess he has done a lot for the Horde recently... and all of Azeroth really. I SUPPOSE the other Horde leaders respect him, why wouldn't they? Oh yea he's a blood elf, so of course they just think he's an effeminate boy toy. OK so who on the Horde would the Alliance approve of? I mean, they hated Thrall and he was as diplomatic as you could get! Oh! How about the guy who was just in talks with you about rejoining his people into your faction? I guess that's also Lor'themar... huh.

"But Lor'themar only cares about his own people, he couldn't care less for the other Horde races!"

There is nothing supporting that he doesn't care about the other races. He has done what he could for his people because he CAN. What he could do for the trolls and tauren in Orgrimmar is pretty much out of his hands. Blood Elves were persecuted just as harshly as trolls and tauren, maybe even more so, where were Vol'jin and Baine then? Oh, I'm sure they would help if they could, but it really looks like they had their hands full at the time looking after their own people... similar to Lor'themar.... HUH.

"But he's a blood elf, blood elves are too feminine and not savage enough to have one as the leader of the Horde!"

Uh, he would JUST become Warchief, this doesn't mean that suddenly all of your favourite orcs, trolls, and tauren will suddenly be more feminine and less savage. People also like to just think about orcs, trolls, and tauren when they say this, and completely forget that the Forsaken, blood elves, goblins, and pandaren are also part of the Horde, and are not lesser to the first three. The Horde are still THE HORDE, you just have someone different at the top. Remember when Garrosh became warchief and all of the players totally took his word for what the Horde really was? Oh wait...

[razorfire]

So why does it make sense that Varian should be High King? Besides being a human, of course.

Lor'themar is not just a throwaway character that gets a shot at Warchief just for showing up. He's a potential candidate because there are several very compelling reasons why he could be, and no reason why he couldn't be. Is this a 100% sure thing? No of course not, it's almost impossible to predict Blizzard's final decision on these sorts of things, but it's unfair to say he can't be warchief just because he's not an orc, or he's an elf, or he's not the warchief for the Horde.

Some common points I'm seeing:

"But Lor'themar wanted to join the Alliance!"
Because when your people are being persecuted in a way you've sworn to never let happen again, the best decision is to just suck it up and take it, right? Lor'themar wasn't leaving "our" Horde, he was trying to leave Garrosh's True Horde. Lor'themar was simply out of options. In fact, this little argument actually works in favour of Lor'themar for Warchief.

It has to be understood that becoming Warchief so far has pretty much been a "yup, you're it now" affair. For the first time since Doomhammer took the title from Blackhand, someone other than the previous warchief gets to have a say in who it will be. The new Warchief HAS to be someone both factions approve of, I mean, that's the whole point of both factions taking part in this. Now who on the Horde has proven himself in combat and leadership against Garrosh and has also procured powerful blood golems for the Siege when he led the assault on one of the most powerful tyrants Azeroth has ever seen... Huh that would be Lor'themar, I guess he has done a lot for the Horde recently... and all of Azeroth really. I SUPPOSE the other Horde leaders respect him, why wouldn't they? Oh yea he's a blood elf, so of course they just think he's an effeminate boy toy. OK so who on the Horde would the Alliance approve of? I mean, they hated Thrall and he was as diplomatic as you could get! Oh! How about the guy who was just in talks with you about rejoining his people into your faction? I guess that's also Lor'themar... huh.

"But Lor'themar only cares about his own people, he couldn't care less for the other Horde races!"

There is nothing supporting that he doesn't care about the other races. He has done what he could for his people because he CAN. What he could do for the trolls and tauren in Orgrimmar is pretty much out of his hands. Blood Elves were persecuted just as harshly as trolls and tauren, maybe even more so, where were Vol'jin and Baine then? Oh, I'm sure they would help if they could, but it really looks like they had their hands full at the time looking after their own people... similar to Lor'themar.... HUH.

"But he's a blood elf, blood elves are too feminine and not savage enough to have one as the leader of the Horde!"

Uh, he would JUST become Warchief, this doesn't mean that suddenly all of your favourite orcs, trolls, and tauren will suddenly be more feminine and less savage. People also like to just think about orcs, trolls, and tauren when they say this, and completely forget that the Forsaken, blood elves, goblins, and pandaren are also part of the Horde, and are not lesser to the first three. The Horde are still THE HORDE, you just have someone different at the top. Remember when Garrosh became warchief and all of the players totally took his word for what the Horde really was? Oh wait...

on your first point I have to disagree with your defense since while he did have reason to start looking away from the horde to a degree...he did it in a stupid way. there is an active rebel movement, heck you get told in a letter that baine is going to talk to him about joining it, meanwhile instead of dealing with his biggest oppressor within the horde while keeping those that would aid him he instead wants to join the force that has been an enemy for ages, going so far as to send saboteurs into his land back in BC.

on your second and third points, I agree those arguments against him are kind of stupid. the entire "bloodelf men are girls" argument sounds like something a child would make and is little more than a running joke by now. and the "he doesn't care about other races" thing has no lore evidence behind it.

HOWEVER as I stated in my earlier post, he was an ineffective leader until mists, and only changed after a huge amount of pressure. heck he didn't become a confident or decisive leader until AFTER talks with varian failed due to jaina's actions, if that hadn't happened he would've simply gone from being full of self doubt and being a doormat on the horde side to being the same on the alliance side with forsaken forces RIGHT OUTSIDE HIS DOOR and actively reinforcing some of his towns. he would be stupidly inviting another large loss of bloodelf lives if he actually switched sides, meanwhile garrosh would still be there and now even more angry with him and likely WOULD try to force sylvanas into attacking him like he forced her into attacking gilneas.

[Deleted]

oh right, and as a reminder, war chief is a term for an ORC leadership position. it's the leader of the new horde largely because thrall and the orcs STARTED the new horde.

See, this is an argument I don't understand. It's not like all of the Horde racial leaders agreed on this. The Orcs took this title ages ago and passed it on, there wasn't an election or mutual agreement, on who should lead the Horde. The Horde is different now. It became different, when Thrall decided to take in all of this races, that had no allignment and were seeking for protection. It's not just the Orcs anymore. Sure the other factions trusted Thrall and owed him a lot for taking them in, so they even tolerated Garrosh, when he was appointed by Thrall. Thrall was, up until this point, always right with his decisions, so why doubt him now? Well, things have changed.

This is a different situation. We had an Orc lead the Horde, a fierce and strong warrior, a "war hero", like so many of you guys are picturing is the only option to lead. And oh boy, did he mess up! Theres no way, that anyone outside the Orcs, will let this happen again. Thrall isn't much of an option either. He's responsible, he was the one that appointed Garrosh. No one will entrust him with this position anymore. And I don't know, if Thralls best Buddy, will be an option either, although he proved himself quite a bit.

The new Warchief will have to be a diplomat. Someone, who doesn't think of any race as inferior, no matter if Horde OR Alliance. War experienced, sure. But with a calm mind. And I actually only see one option there.

[endersblade]

....A pansy-assed Blood Elf? You serious?

[tinyninja]

on your first point I have to disagree with your defense since while he did have reason to start looking away from the horde to a degree...he did it in a stupid way. there is an active rebel movement, heck you get told in a letter that baine is going to talk to him about joining it, meanwhile instead of dealing with his biggest oppressor within the horde while keeping those that would aid him he instead wants to join the force that has been an enemy for ages, going so far as to send saboteurs into his land back in BC.

on your second and third points, I agree those arguments against him are kind of stupid. the entire "bloodelf men are girls" argument sounds like something a child would make and is little more than a running joke by now. and the "he doesn't care about other races" thing has no lore evidence behind it.

HOWEVER as I stated in my earlier post, he was an ineffective leader until mists, and only changed after a huge amount of pressure. heck he didn't become a confident or decisive leader until AFTER talks with varian failed due to jaina's actions, if that hadn't happened he would've simply gone from being full of self doubt and being a doormat on the horde side to being the same on the alliance side with forsaken forces RIGHT OUTSIDE HIS DOOR and actively reinforcing some of his towns. he would be stupidly inviting another large loss of bloodelf lives if he actually switched sides, meanwhile garrosh would still be there and now even more angry with him and likely WOULD try to force sylvanas into attacking him like he forced her into attacking gilneas.

I think while his past is important, we should focus on what he has been doing most recently while evaluating his effectiveness as a leader. People always talk about Lor'themar joining the Alliance like he could do it in an afternoon, when really it never became anything more than "talks" before Garrosh burned those bridges down. These "talks" were happening before the rebellion was happening. Anyone can look and see that when Vol'jin DOES lead an open revolution, Lor'themar throws in his support, but still has his hands full at the Isle of Thunder.

[razorfire]

See, this is an argument I don't understand. It's not like all of the Horde racial leaders agreed on this. The Orcs took this title ages ago and passed it on, there wasn't an election or mutual agreement, on who should lead the Horde. The Horde is different now. It became different, when Thrall decided to take in all of this races, that had no allignment and were seeking for protection. It's not just the Orcs anymore. Sure the other factions trusted Thrall and owed him a lot for taking them in, so they even tolerated Garrosh, when he was appointed by Thrall. Thrall was, up until this point, always right with his dicisions, so why doubt him now? Well, things have changed.

This is a different situation. We had an Orc lead the Horde, a fierce and strong warrior, a "war hero", like so many of you guys are picturing is the only option to lead. And oh boy, did he mess up! Theres no way, that anyone outside the Orcs, will let this happen again. Thrall isn't much of an option either. He's responsible, he was the one that appointed Garrosh. No one will entrust him with this position anymore. And I don't know, if Thralls best Buddy, will be an option either, although he proved himself quite a bit.

The new Warchief will have to be a diplomat. Someone, who doesn't think of any race as inferior, no matter if Horde OR Alliance. War experienced, sure. But with a calm mind. And I actually only see one option there.

"orc" and "bloodthirsty fighter" are not the same thing, and saying an orc shouldn't lead because garrosh did is like saying an orc shouldn't lead because thrall did. thrall managed to do everything right, garrosh did everything wrong, orcs are as varied as any other race and to say that because one member of that race gave a really bad experience so none of them should lead again is...kind of childish. there are orcs who are definitely capable of diplomacy over mindless combat such as eitrigg, thrall, and saurfang, all of which would rather avoid war.

also I'm not saying the horde IS orcs, I'm saying the warchief position has always BEEN orcs and blizz isn't likely to change that. and they kind of did agree to it on joining the horde and agreeing thrall was leader. garrosh was an idiotic mess and I doubt you'll find someone who hated him leading more than me (except maybe trassk), so please don't take what I said to be "we need an orc who will smash them darned humans cause blood and war and raaaaawr"...it's not that...I'm all for an evil character but garrosh wasn't that, he was a child that never grew up and thought he could get what he wants if he yells enough. plus you have to remember, most of the people who side with thrall? young orcs and dark horde members, most of the old orcs all seem to have decided he was a little dictator. so why would the other races not allow one of them? why would they all decide that the most stupid members of a race qualify as all of them and make it impossible for one that has shown to be on their side to lead?

in summary...don't make generalizations of my arguments or the races of the game.

- - - Updated - - -

I think while his past is important, we should focus on what he has been doing most recently while evaluating his effectiveness as a leader. People always talk about Lor'themar joining the Alliance like he could do it in an afternoon, when really it never became anything more than "talks" before Garrosh burned those bridges down. These "talks" were happening before the rebellion was happening. Anyone can look and see that when Vol'jin DOES lead an open revolution, Lor'themar throws in his support, but still has his hands full at the Isle of Thunder.

the "talks" are taking place after lor'themar and the bloodelves' terrible treatment by garrosh, which is during the planning stage of the rebellion. but really? saying it's justified for him NOT to look for aid inside the horde first is a bit much, when someone in charge is treating you and EVERYONE ELSE badly you don't start by going to the enemy team, you start by seeing if the other people he's treating like dirt will help you get him out of the way. instead of doing the smart thing and not making the people he's closest to his enemies he starts talks for joining the alliance while the forsaken are still in his land.

and on your comment that we need to look at what's recent, again, he wasn't an actual effective leader until EXTREMELY recently, you don't base leadership on a guess that his decisiveness will stick around after it only just showed up.

[Vensu24]

They guy said no to the Crown of Silvermoon, no way he accepts the mantle of Warchief

[Deleted]

I don't think he'd be a bad warchief, I wouldn't really like it though. In my eyes the warchief is the racial leader of the Orcs, who, up untill now, happens to be the leader of the entire Horde.

[Deleted]

"orc" and "bloodthirsty fighter" are not the same thing, and saying an orc shouldn't lead because garrosh did is like saying an orc shouldn't lead because thrall did. thrall managed to do everything right, garrosh did everything wrong, orcs are as varied as any other race and to say that because one member of that race gave a really bad experience so none of them should lead again is...kind of childish. there are orcs who are definitely capable of diplomacy over mindless combat such as eitrigg, thrall, and saurfang, all of which would rather avoid war.

also I'm not saying the horde IS orcs, I'm saying the warchief position has always BEEN orcs and blizz isn't likely to change that. and they kind of did agree to it on joining the horde and agreeing thrall was leader. garrosh was an idiotic mess and I doubt you'll find someone who hated him leading more than me (except maybe trassk), so please don't take what I said to be "we need an orc who will smash them darned humans cause blood and war and raaaaawr"...it's not that...I'm all for an evil character but garrosh wasn't that, he was a child that never grew up and thought he could get what he wants if he yells enough. plus you have to remember, most of the people who side with thrall? young orcs and dark horde members, most of the old orcs all seem to have decided he was a little dictator. so why would the other races not allow one of them? why would they all decide that the most stupid members of a race qualify as all of them and make it impossible for one that has shown to be on their side to lead?

in summary...don't make generalizations of my arguments or the races of the game.

I didn't generalize Orcs. I know that Garrosh doesn't represent the majority of Orcs. But you have to see it from the perspective of the Characters.

Varian wasn't on best terms with orcs to begin with and Garrosh just gave him another reason to not trust them. And he's a major player here. He won't just stand there, in the middle of Orgrimmar, watching the Horde appointing yet another Orc. He will push for his candidate and frankly, with the whole Alliance army backing him up and the remains of the Horde owing him for helping out here, he will most probably get his wish.

Also, Thrall didn't get everything right. Like I said, he was the one trusting in Garrosh, when all the signs pointed at him being a retard.

You know, we can argue about this all day long. In the end, Blizzard's doing what they want to do, anyway. This is just my opinion.

[razorfire]

You know, we can argue about this all day long. In the end, Blizzard's doing what they want to do, anyway. This is just my opinion.

agreed, regardless which of us may be right it's still blizzard's decision.