Casuals > Raiders, when it comes to content - misconception

[worsthitmanNa]

Feral's symbiosis with warriors is Shattering Throw.

Mages can heal themselves. Rogues have a good spammable ranged attack. The differences between the classes are minor when it comes to fundamental abilities. No doubt this is to help with solo questing.

So again I ask: why make a rogue when a paladin can DPS, tank and heal? For fun? Even rogues don't have as many unique abilities now. Ferals and priests can vanish. Do you honestly not see this as a problem?

Rogues have been able to throw weapons since BC maybe vanilla. I only played a warrior in vanilla so I can't say that with 100% certainty. Priest and feral vanish breaks on damage rogues takes four seconds to break and they have subterfuge. I guess its because I pvp but that is not minor to me that stuff is game changing at higher ratings.

[Odina]

Ah, ok, so "I'm raiding heroic" means "I got the first boss on heroic". Now that I find entirely plausible with 4 hours a week.

According to many in this thread if you get just 1 heroic boss dead you are by definition a heroic raider and hard core player!

I consider myself a casual raider due to our scheduel but I don't apparently think like a casual raider (see all the other posts in this thread).

what would you call a group with 4 heroic kills on a 1 day week / 4hours shceduel in TOT?

http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/15...alendar/08-13/
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Odina/advanced

We are keepign with the same scheduel this tier and so far were out the gate slow with 2 MIA on night one and only getting 6/14 normal on week 2. I'm really curious how you would categorise myself as I thoguht I was a very casual raider but to many in here I'm too "hardcore" to understand "casuals".

[Deleted]

Rogues have been able to throw weapons since BC maybe vanilla.

Not like this (with Shuriken Toss). ST + Deadly Throw made rogues a viable ranged class for a little while until Blizz made ST cost more energy.

I only played a warrior in vanilla so I can't say that with 100% certainty. Priest and feral vanish breaks on damage rogues takes for second and they have subterfuge. I guess its because I pvp but that is not minor to me that stuff is game changing at higher ratings.

Blizz either need to remove some of these abilities in order to make classes more unique again, or add even more abilities. Druids having vanish is just /lol

They are like a better rogue who can spec for healing, ranged DPS and tanking. There's really no point even making a rogue these days.

[Ronduwil]

Stop just stop.........you are severely hurting yourself here..........strat guides are NOT cheat codes for one heck most game companies offer a bundle for them, and for 2 if they were actually CHEATING the company would not put them in, for 3 sure I could do normal or heroic on an alt..........WHEN THEY GET GEAR!

You can craft, do Timeless Isle, and/or buy VP gear from the Shado-Pan Assault. I hadn't played in over 6 months and it took me a day to qualify to buy that gear. LFR is even more RNG than Timeless Isle as well as being less time consuming. I don't see how you could complain about a gear shortage.

[worsthitmanNa]

Not like this (with Shuriken Toss). ST + Deadly Throw made rogues a viable ranged class for a little while until Blizz made ST cost more energy.



Blizz either need to remove some of these abilities in order to make classes more unique again, or add even more abilities. Druids having vanish is just /lol

They are like a better rogue who can spec for healing, ranged DPS and tanking. There's really no point even making a rogue these days.

They still aren't it has a 30 yard range if you stay out of it your good. They mobility is awful as well so staying on them isn't an issue either. Druid vanish got removed btw. Rogues still have better cc and that's what made them better than ferals for a long time.

[Seefer]

You can craft, do Timeless Isle, and/or buy VP gear from the Shado-Pan Assault. I hadn't played in over 6 months and it took me a day to qualify to buy that gear. LFR is even more RNG than Timeless Isle as well as being less time consuming. I don't see how you could complain about a gear shortage.

And how would I get valor gear? Dailies that I can't stand? Crafted gear is way expensive and to make it takes almost a month......again you are being a hypocrite saying that just because I am not a casual I shouldn't have the right to go into LFR and have a decent experience.

[hyphnos]

According to many in this thread if you get just 1 heroic boss dead you are by definition a heroic raider and hard core player!

I consider myself a casual raider due to our scheduel but I don't apparently think like a casual raider (see all the other posts in this thread).

what would you call a group with 4 heroic kills on a 1 day week / 4hours shceduel in TOT?

http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/15...alendar/08-13/
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Odina/advanced

We are keepign with the same scheduel this tier and so far were out the gate slow with 2 MIA on night one and only getting 6/14 normal on week 2. I'm really curious how you would categorise myself as I thoguht I was a very casual raider but to many in here I'm too "hardcore" to understand "casuals".

The thing you seem to be having trouble with grasping is that by participating in organized guild raiding at all, you are "exceptional" in the sense that you play the game in a way that 80 to 90% of players do not. By being a raider at all, you are far removed from "casual", even if you raid casually. Basically by the content you participate in, you are well above average in knowledge of the game and skill and apparently are quite far removed from understanding just how complex the game is to people who haven't, for whatever reason, acquired that knowledge and skill.

[Seefer]

The thing you seem to be having trouble with grasping is that by participating in organized guild raiding at all, you are "exceptional" in the sense that you play the game in a way that 80 to 90% of players do not. By being a raider at all, you are far removed from "casual", even if you raid casually. Basically by the content you participate in, you are well above average in knowledge of the game and skill and apparently are quite far removed from understanding just how complex the game is to people who haven't, for whatever reason, acquired that knowledge and skill.

The only reason the game is complex to them is because they can't be bothered to learn and instead just want Hello Kitty and Friends.

[Tomana]

According to many in this thread if you get just 1 heroic boss dead you are by definition a heroic raider and hard core player!

My goal was not to set up labels about casuals and hardcore raiders.
It is just that Seefer said, and I'm quoting "Yeah sorry on my main I do normal and heroic raiding" as if he was doing a lot of bosses in heroic modes on a 4 hour a week schedule, which turned out to mean that he downed 1 boss in heroic. Whether it qualifies as casual or hardcore raiding is irrelevant here .

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The only reason the game is complex to them is because they can't be bothered to learn and instead just want Hello Kitty and Friends.

And as a developer, you have to deal with it if you want to keep the said customers. Basic market law.

[Osmeric]

The only reason the game is complex to them is because they can't be bothered to learn and instead just want Hello Kitty and Friends.

I find it vastly amusing that hardcores keep saying things like this, as if it made any difference. Blizzard has to deal with the facts on the ground, regardless of such moralistic gnashing of teeth.

[MrKnubbles]

Casuals only play 1-3 months per year? Damn, what am I doing paying for 12 months then?

[Seefer]

I find it vastly amusing that hardcores keep saying things like this, as if it made any difference. Blizzard has to deal with the facts on the ground, regardless of such moralistic gnashing of teeth.

Or they could just let them do whatever it is they do and let them unsub when they are out of things to do, it doesn't mean they have to give everyone everything, I don't waltz into other games and say "HEY! I am not good at this game but I demand EVERYTHING just because I paid for it!"

[Deleted]

They still aren't it has a 30 yard range if you stay out of it your good. They mobility is awful as well so staying on them isn't an issue either. Druid vanish got removed btw. Rogues still have better cc and that's what made them better than ferals for a long time.

That's not good enough. All rogues really bring to a raid is DPS. If they don't have more unique abilities then it's simply better to make a hybrid who can do what rogues can and more.

Making classes more similar in terms of fundamental abilities has made them less unique and that will have a ripple effect on the game. All Blizz can do now is make X class overpowered for a few months to attract people to it unless classes have more unique abilities to separate them from everyone else. An ability like Heroic Leap and Blade Storm is awesome for example but there need to be more class defining abilities that do more than just DPS, heal or tank otherwise you can just make a hybrid and do it all. Everything else is just the illusion of being different.

[Vargas]

Or they could just let them do whatever it is they do and let them unsub when they are out of things to do, it doesn't mean they have to give everyone everything, I don't waltz into other games and say "HEY! I am not good at this game but I demand EVERYTHING just because I paid for it!"

Except no casual player says that; its all stuff hardcores and wannabe hardcores make up to make themselves feel better (as their kind is wont to do; its always someone elses fault) rather than face the truth; they're an ignorable minority. Blizzard flat-out said that the money they spent on developing raids was wasted because so few ever got to see them. They didn't like wasting money and resources (yes, snowflakes; they were wasting time and money on you) on something that had relatively little payoff and so few got any use out of.


I think the real misconception here is that casuals complain more than hardcores and wannabe hardcores; I believe its the other way around. Hardcores bitch like no one's business about WoW under the mistaken belief that they own the game and that the game couldn't survive without them so Blizzard better listen to them!

[Ronduwil]

And how would I get valor gear? Dailies that I can't stand? Crafted gear is way expensive and to make it takes almost a month......

You haven't even tried, have you? You only have to do those "dailies" one time. Just go through three solo scenarios and one round of dailies and you can buy the VP gear. It's not like it was at release where you had to run dailies for two weeks.

again you are being a hypocrite saying that just because I am not a casual I shouldn't have the right to go into LFR and have a decent experience.

By "decent experience" you mean exclude casuals from your LFR run, and you're right. You can exclude anyone you want from your flex, normal, or heroic raid, but you can't exclude anyone from LFR without getting four others to consent. That's by design. If you don't like that design then it wasn't designed for you. Don't do LFR if you can't accept that. That's not hypocritical. You have three modes of raiding to accomodate your multi-player preferences, and I have 0 current tier heroic dungeons to accommodate mine. And yet you still think the game caters to me somehow.

[Realsykes]

I mean yeah if the hardcore raiders want to snuff out the casuals and let blizz cater only to them, go ahead!

What's that? They're upping the price to $200 a month to account for all of the losses? Dang, you don't want to pay for that, so I guess they'll have to shut it down.

Free to play you say? But what about the massive amount of content you want right then and now?

Damn, you guys drive a hard bargain.

So you want to pay the same price, have everyone else leave, and still get the content you consistently bitch about anyways?

Whoah, they may have to sit down and think about this one.

[NeverStop]

I find it vastly amusing that hardcores keep saying things like this, as if it made any difference. Blizzard has to deal with the facts on the ground, regardless of such moralistic gnashing of teeth.

No hardcores = WoW dies. Look at all the other MMOs that tried to go casual with no end-game content. SWTOR, GW2, Neverwinter. I foresee Wildstar getting decent subs if their 40 man raids can outdo WoW's glory day 40 man raids.

[Grimble]

No hardcores = WoW dies. Look at all the other MMOs that tried to go casual with no end-game content. SWTOR, GW2, Neverwinter. I foresee Wildstar getting decent subs if their 40 man raids can outdo WoW's glory day 40 man raids.

Casual endgame content is not the same as no endgame content. If the 5% of faggot-ass raiders all fuck off and quit, no one will even notice. I love how much it hurts you people to be so irrelevant, that you have to keep making up these idiotic reasons that your tiny sliver of the playerbase is supposedly super important.

Infracted. Please, lets keep a discussion more civil, shall we? There is no need of such words to be used to share your point of view.

[HeedmySpeed]

Casuals only play 1-3 months per year? Damn, what am I doing paying for 12 months then?

That would mean you're not a casual wouldn't it?

[Monteverdi]

I often read on these forums, and just about all over the internet where there is World of Warcraft talk present, that Blizzard should focus more on content for casuals and less content for the "1% of raiders". Some even claim that heroic raiding should be removed because the audience is too small.

This is just plain wrong to say, and a poor argument in my opinion.

Let's look at the facts here. Hardcore raiders and raiders in general are more than likely, dedicated to the game and their progression, meaning they are subscribed for a majority of the year and most likely 12 months a year. That's about roughly $180 per dedicated raider. When you compare this to some casual players who are subscribed 1-3 months in a year, regardless of the content blizzard makes for them; tell me who is making more income for Blizzard on a per person basis ?

The answer is clear: It's the dedicated players; meaning we absolutely deserve to get the content that Blizzard gives us and even the special treatment. You should also know there are over hundreds of thousands of these dedicated raiders.

Now tell me why again, do raiders deserve less content than casuals ?

One of the big assumptions here is that raiders are more dedicated subscriber, and thus bring in more money to the game, than casuals, who thus bring in less. This is a gross generalization that is, in my experience, not true. There are raiders who raid for a month or two a tier, then unsub. There are casuals who play almost every day, year in and year out. So which is it?

In truth, it's a bit of both - Blizzard needs to provide for casual players and hardcore players alike, and I can't think of any time in the history of the game that this has been true - it has always swung too far one way or the other. I am convinced a balance can be found, however.