What's Your Take on Dungeon Design?

[AbsolutePitch]

When I ask this question I'm referring to any and all aspects and elements of dungeons: their length, difficulty, scope, mechanics, artistic direction, questing, and so on. I'll mention some of my own for a start, and invite you to share your own opinions.

In my personal opinion the dungeon experience, as opposed to raids, is a significant component of the gaming experience. During Wrath, I loved that they added new five-man dungeons even as significant raids (ICC) were on the way. For me, I feel like longer dungeons, while exhausting, lead to more immersion, and immersion becomes in greater and greater demand as gaming convenience increases. I also feel like the "all quests available in one-go" model is conducive to convenience and therefore takes away from immersion. I really think we should go back to long chains that take you from one dungeon to the next, in and out, and require multiple dungeon visits. You might think that this makes the game more grindy, but in most cases while gearing up players have to do those dungeons multiple times anyway. If anything, a complex questing system adds to the storyline, adds to immersion, and increases replay value for those dungeons; as does making them longer, which might take a little more time to complete, but is far more rewarding. Also, considering grouping up is a lot more seamless today than it used to be, longer dungeons aren't such a bad thing anymore.

I also feel like a genuine focus on creating epic and immersive dungeons, especially ones that link meaningfully to the overall expansion plot and what's happening outside those dungeons, contributes positively to the casual-versus-hardcore raiding dilemma. As far as that conundrum goes, I do believe that certain content (and by content I mean actual content and not just difficulty) has to be earned; it increases immersion and enlarges the game world's perceived size in the players' imaginations, something no design-based-work-around could ever compensate for. With that being said, creating meaningful and challenging dungeon experiences provides players with a lesser skill level than master raiders a platform to explore the universe further, and a stepping stone towards becoming better players and consequently earning that skilled-raider-exclusive-content themselves.

I would also add that high-level zone content should build towards improving player skill in anticipation of harder-than-now dungeons, just as dungeons should provide players with opportunities to prepare for harder raids. In other words, bring back elite quests that at least invite players to work together again (which should work hand-in-hand with the realm-merging feature that's incoming). Remember the Nesingwary quests and the "Ring of <blah blah>" questlines? They made people come together, even if briefly, and rewarded them for it appropriately.

In conclusion, all I'm trying to say is that all game design elements should work together holistically to improve the gaming and storytelling experiences, and to collectively guide players into a process of gradual self-improvement, rather than function as separate elements of the game. Dungeons, in my opinion, should be longer, more challenging, and have better and more consequential lore, as they once did, and the rewards in terms of both loot and immersion will also improve. Seeing as indirect technical elements of instanced gameplay, such as group creation and member replacement, are no longer a hindrance, this should be a smoother change than many people expect it to be.


P.S. In anticipation of "nostalgia" attacks, I would comment that, while I cannot stand before my fellow gamers and deny nostalgia, its presence doesn't confound critique and commentary based on actual observation. Consider this analogy: if you were in jail, you would certainly miss the years you were free. Would nostalgia be involved? Yes, but does that mean there are no other, valid reasons for missing your freedom?

Thank you for reading, please feel free to share your thoughts. I'm in search of dialogue and not conflict.

[Tart]

I love dungeons, especially the likes of BRD and the old Sunken Temple. I hope the new expansion isnt filled with scenarios as i absolutely despise them. Give me another old school BRD style dungeon that was like a mini raid.

[Netherspark]

Too short, too easy, too accessible.

They have devolved into practically nothing but a quick tool for JP/VP/XP farmers.

[AbsolutePitch]

It's funny to me because at first the whole "difficult-versus-accessible" debate was tipping towards accessibility (probably because of the 99% > 1%) thing. But then dungeons fell apart in terms of awe-inspired as well, and almost simultaneously outdoor questing became entirely (and easily) soloable. You could go through the entire expansion never speaking to a single other player (which I've done about twice now). So not only have the difficulty and scope of instanced components dwindled, but there's also no climb anymore, which makes it difficult to return to the difficult-but-epic model of instanced gameplay again - if you returned to that old model you'd immediately estrange all casual players from the game.

The solution is simple: make endgame content harder and more epic, do away with multiple difficulty levels, and instead dedicate resources towards making more challenging and epic dungeons (altho less difficult and epic than raids), and more challenging and epic end-zone group material (altho less challenging and epic than dungeons), and finally more challenging and epic end-game soloable material (altho less challenging and epic than end-zone group content). That way you have a spectrum between casual and hardcore material, but there's a staggered progression from one end of the spectrum to the other that gives unique and varied content to all player-types and, more importantly, facilitates a gradual and meaningful climb upwards.

[themightysven]

there's space for a middle ground-if we call the quick BC style dungeons swift, and palatial BRD, Dire Maul style dungeons sprawl
tierlette 1 leveling dungeons-normal mode swift
tierlette 2 Max level Normals- normal mode sprawl, 1st patch Normal swift
tierlette 3 Heroics of leveling dungeons, 1st patch Normal mode sprawl
tierlette 4 Heroics of Max level dungeons, LFR early raid, 2nd patch Normal mode sprawl
tierlette 5 LFR late tier, 2nd patch Heroic sprawl, Flex early raid
tierlette 6 Flex late tier, Normal early tier
tierlette 7 Normal late tier
tierlette 8 Heroic raid

each patch needs 1-2 swift dungeons and 1 sprawl dungeon (especially if there's no raid that patch)

[AbsolutePitch]

In terms of actual content, content that adds to immersion and storyline progression, increased difficulty levels don't count. Lorewise it's the exact same content, and the conflict over instances is really over actual content rather than the difficulty. Difficulty right now is almost a non-issue, seeing as there are difficulty levels to suit all skill levels but all covering the exact same content.

[Confirm Deny]

My take now is that they should use cross-realm technology to make ante-dungeons work like hubs for grouping, and the groups there can face a difficulty similar to Challenge Modes difficulty wise where gear is scaled down possibly or - even better - more mechanics get added based on group item level!)

Just add the ability to toggle off if you're actually doing a timed run as if it was the old normal/heroic model, so people don't feel self-conscious.

Remember when it was an adventure just to get through all of the elites before the instance portal? And there were quests? They'd just have to have daily quests hubs send you near dungeons so that way you have a reason to be in the area (or provide reasonable upgrades to gear (maybe even just minor enchant improvements) when your group's item level scaled the instance up like I said)

They can keep the LFD tools that provide a difficulty level similar to what Pandarian "heroics" apparently were. They just need to create a better sense of interaction around dungeons and other old progression tasks/dailies/chores, and gear scaling + cross realm should be opening up lots of possibilities. (Like I said, scaling UP would be a best case scenario. It'd be a lot of work, but totally worth it.)

[But, yes, I do agree with the sentiment that dungeons should last longer. I just disagree that they need to actually be longer (significantly).]

[AbsolutePitch]

My take now is that they should use cross-realm technology to make ante-dungeons work like hubs for grouping, and the groups there can face a difficulty similar to Challenge Modes difficulty wise where gear is scaled down possibly or - even better - more mechanics get added based on group item level!)

Just add the ability to toggle off if you're actually doing a timed run as if it was the old normal/heroic model, so people don't feel self-conscious.

Remember when it was an adventure just to get through all of the elites before the instance portal? And there were quests? They'd just have to have daily quests hubs send you near dungeons so that way you have a reason to be in the area (or provide reasonable upgrades to gear (maybe even just minor enchant improvements) when your group's item level scaled the instance up like I said)

They can keep the LFD tools that provide a difficulty level similar to what Pandarian "heroics" apparently were. They just need to create a better sense of interaction around dungeons and other old progression tasks/dailies/chores, and gear scaling + cross realm should be opening up lots of possibilities. (Like I said, scaling UP would be a best case scenario. It'd be a lot of work, but totally worth it.)

[But, yes, I do agree with the sentiment that dungeons should last longer. I just disagree that they need to actually be longer (significantly).]

I like the ante-dungeon-quest-hub idea, I think it'll feed a good social atmosphere. The gear scaling thing I'm not too sure about, I feel like equating gear level with dungeon difficulty once again places emphasis on gear rather than challenging the players to get better, gradually rather than abruptly of course.

[Frozen Death Knight]

Well, OP, I would interested in seeing how far you would manage as a game designer before realising that your "clear solutions" will not actually solve everything. It's easy to just throw around ideas, but making them work is another. I honestly don't see any actual improvement by just going by your ideas to be perfectly frank.

[AbsolutePitch]

Well, OP, I would interested in seeing how far you would manage as a game designer before realising that your "clear solutions" will not actually solve everything. It's easy to just throw around ideas, but making them work is another. I honestly don't see any actual improvement by just going by your ideas to be perfectly frank.

I think every professional adult is aware of the gap between theory and practice. That doesn't mean we shouldn't pitch ideas and theory-craft - it's where practice begins. It would be a lot more constructive if you suggested how the theory might fail rather than simply point out that it might. All theories might fail by their very nature.

[Grimtide]

Upon the start of an expansion I would like max level 'heroics' like we currently have, which would gear you up for LFR, but alongside them the addition of non-dungeon finder instances along the lines of heroic BRD that will gear you for normal mode raids. These should be additional dungeons, not the same ones with a different difficulty.

[Sting]

I've argued for another level of difficulty for 5 mans on this forum a while ago, but I quickly realised that if you add a new difficulty for 5 mans that is actually hard people would whine so fucking much if they couldn't clear them. It would be like early Cataclysm I'm afraid. I like a small group challenge, but if Blizzard isn't willing to put their foot down when they release hard dungeons and basically say that the whiners are just too bad to clear them, I don't see it happening.

[melodramocracy]

20 minute hallway room hallway room encounters aren't interesting in the slightest. Encounters being terribly easy is just icing on the cake. I'd love to see a return to design like BRD, and leave scenarios for the immediate gratification folks.

- - - Updated - - -

I've argued for another level of difficulty for 5 mans on this forum a while ago, but I quickly realised that if you add a new difficulty for 5 mans that is actually hard people would whine so fucking much if they couldn't clear them. It would be like early Cataclysm I'm afraid. I like a small group challenge, but if Blizzard isn't willing to put their foot down when they release hard dungeons and basically say that the whiners are just too bad to clear them, I don't see it happening.

Pretty much. You'll recall, I'm sure, the screeching about hHoR when it was initially released.

[Sting]

Pretty much. You'll recall, I'm sure, the screeching about hHoR when it was initially released.

Oh, I do, and I really loved getting it as a random dungeon as tank just to see how glad people were to finally clear it

[Kalcheus]

I've argued for another level of difficulty for 5 mans on this forum a while ago, but I quickly realised that if you add a new difficulty for 5 mans that is actually hard people would whine so fucking much if they couldn't clear them. It would be like early Cataclysm I'm afraid. I like a small group challenge, but if Blizzard isn't willing to put their foot down when they release hard dungeons and basically say that the whiners are just too bad to clear them, I don't see it happening.

The solution is the same as they did for Heroic Scenarios: require a pre-made group.

[AbsolutePitch]

This makes me wonder if you think player skills and memory always resets with a new x-pac. What would a 5 man prepare me for that I haven't seen in 8 years of raiding. And that goes for probably for everyone in one of the 35 000 Tier 15 raiding guilds? Then there are now proving grounds and not least the Brawler's guild.

Currently I enjoy the short and snappy 5 mans as they are now while levelling and as "heroics" to gear up for raids. I honestly wouldn't know how to design a 5 man heroic now to fit between T15 and T16. What gear level should they require to join? 496? Well..wouldn't everyone just faceroll them? 550+? Well..that is more exclusive content then.

Since apparently there is love and a longing for ST and UBRS / LBRS length dungeons, I wouldn't mind if Blizzard just adds one of those again and then let us see how popular they REALLY are and how representative these threads here are.

I honestly don't see why a normal 10 man raid where you spend 4 hrs cannot fill the void that BRD left...I certainly did spend my share of full afternoons there...

But having longer dungeons with questlines won't take anything away from you as a seasoned player. You would still have to run heroics a bit to gear up for raids upon every new expansion, and also to re-learn your class to a slight degree because play styles are often drastically updated with expansions. If anything, for you it would mean an easier gearing up experience towards raids, because not only would you have more loot (from bosses, trash drops and quest chains), you would also have some story or plot going on in the background that's less redundant than running the same small dungeon X-many times to gear up. Also, it wouldn't be 4-hours long. Maybe 45 mins - 1 hr depending on skill (and if you're seasoned maybe less). BRD took time to complete because the game was young and it was difficult to form competent groups, and to be honest it was on the extreme side as far as length - let's say more along the lines of L/UBRS and Scholo/Strat.

As far as the Cataclysm heroic difficulty upon launch, I personally loved it even though, like thousands of other players, I sucked at it at first. But instead of putting me off it made me go and learn how to play my class again and I eventually rocked - it challenged me and I liked that. However, it's perfectly fair to say that it was a very abrupt shift for most people. What I'm suggesting is a gradual climb over difficulty that begins well before instances, starting with increasingly-challenging (but not steeply so) solo leveling (which right now is ridiculously easy).

[AbsolutePitch]

I believe story and plot are a great thing when you run a long 5 man for the first time. I believe a long 5 man aka UBRS will be fun to do with your friends for a couple of times

I also believe people will insta-jump ship and blacklist 5 mans that are very long, should dungeons remain part of the daily VP aquiration. In randoms AND with friends. I already see ppl dropping out of Gate of the Setting sun 5 mans - and that isn't even long.

Seriously, maybe it is just me, but every 5 man in MoP tells background lore of the zone that you are in and that leads up to (T 14) raids. Or is that just not lore people here care for? Or told in a way they dislike?

I actually loved Gate of the Setting Sun and think -some- MoP instances are doing a great job at lore-telling. To be fair, I'm pitching this idea mainly as a plea for future development, knowing full well the following: once you provide people with a luxury or a convenience it's almost impossible to go back. If the player-base is so used to short dungeons that they lack the patience for slightly longer ones then that's not going to be fixable, but you can provide incentives, like optional bosses with good loot, or an optional event that might drop a mount, or quests that require re-entry and summoning a new mob with a quest item, or anything along those lines that increases not only the dungeon's replay value but also its storytelling capacity.

[Frozen Death Knight]

I actually loved Gate of the Setting Sun and think -some- MoP instances are doing a great job at lore-telling. To be fair, I'm pitching this idea mainly as a plea for future development, knowing full well the following: once you provide people with a luxury or a convenience it's almost impossible to go back. If the player-base is so used to short dungeons that they lack the patience for slightly longer ones then that's not going to be fixable, but you can provide incentives, like optional bosses with good loot, or an optional event that might drop a mount, or quests that require re-entry and summoning a new mob with a quest item, or anything along those lines that increases not only the dungeon's replay value but also its storytelling capacity.

In today's market customers value time a lot more than the quality of the rewards. If you don't get rewarded in a relatively short amount of time then a majority will not do that content. You may think that the rewards are better because it takes time to get them, but most are just fine with a somewhat lesser quality of the reward as long as they can get it during the amount of spare time that they have at the time.

Whether you think it's a better design or not, you still can't get more people putting more time into something when they don't think they have that much time to waste to begin with. Blizzard realised long ago that a lot of people don't care about challenge in this game whatsoever and that time is precious for their customers. Sure, they can make content that requires more time and has better rewards, but if it comes at the expense of the crowd that only want to play in short spurts then they should make sure the latter gets what they want first and foremost.

[Netherspark]

Essentially one of the best dungeons I think they've done is Wailing Caverns, it has all this and more. I dunno if they've changed WC since it was released, but during that time it was just an outstanding dungeon.

They deleted a massive chunk of Wailing Caverns to make it "shorter and easier to navigate".

[Frozen Death Knight]

They deleted almost half of Wailing Caverns to make it "shorter and easier to navigate".

I remember getting lost in that place every time I got in there. Good times. XD