Demo's evolution?

[Last Starfighter]

No not most pures, only rogues I guess. But my argument is that they could do better balancing that's all. And your right if i spend 50% of the effort i put into afflic/demo on destro i can do just the same or even better

They can always do better at balancing. This game is a balancing game. This is a game with stats. But Warlocks are the closest out of the pures in that regard. All 3 of our specs are raid viable, and not that far from each other. Rogues to a certain extent.

[Deleted]

Chaos Wave to be single target and a numbers tweak to make it a nice burst spell.
Void ray to be redesigned with being a ranged AoE in mind.
Corruption to be a replaced with a demo specific dot so it can better enable affliction dot damage balance without interfering with demo. 'Maybe' backload some of dooms damage into it?
Wimps glyph to be base line but not remove the demonic calling buff, rebalance imp damage or tweak the cool down to balance.
Pet scaling looked into for temporary buffs/trinket procs.

I'd like to see a new debuff that affects pet damage maybe as a new spell in the next expac but might just cause a bit of bloat.

[Lucidious]

If you look at arena representation over 2k demo locks and arcane mages are the lowest representation of any dps specs save tank specs "and even then blood DK is ahead of the 2" demo started MOP strong and was nerfed into the ground. I LOVE the new MOP demo and it is my favorite spec to play and they killed it. KILLED IT!!! I can't even begin to vent how frustrated it makes me. Shadow bolt and soul fire have WAY to long of cast times for very little damage. Fel flame costs WAY to much mana and forces us to life tap WAY to much. And our pet/dot damage is below average as well. Burst is still good with CD's up and utility is good but there is no pressure or consistent damage and that's why the spec fails. It is a shame that they gutted a super fun SPEC and ruined it for the few of us that actually loved it.

[Xanatas]

Chaos Wave to be single target and a numbers tweak to make it a nice burst spell.
Void ray to be redesigned with being a ranged AoE in mind.
Corruption to be a replaced with a demo specific dot so it can better enable affliction dot damage balance without interfering with demo. 'Maybe' backload some of dooms damage into it?
Wimps glyph to be base line but not remove the demonic calling buff, rebalance imp damage or tweak the cool down to balance.
Pet scaling looked into for temporary buffs/trinket procs.

I'd like to see a new debuff that affects pet damage maybe as a new spell in the next expac but might just cause a bit of bloat.

IMHO need this: corruption for affliction, immolate for destruction, doom for demonology. Doom need to tick faster.

and pls, give spyhon life baseline without pvp debuff

[laap]

Bring back tier15 2set bonus and Demo is fine imo, it was such a huge quality of life improvement that demo feels super akward without it.

[Deleted]

Does anyone honestly still believe that a single developer designed the new warlock specs?

If yes, I am glad he is gone now. The new specs might have more thought behind them, but they feel clunky and are less fun than in Cata and before.

[Xanatas]

every class in the game, in pvp, now target and destroy in few second.

The only class who need minute to generate resource and "burst" is the warlock.

[a C e]

Bring back tier15 2set bonus and Demo is fine imo, it was such a huge quality of life improvement that demo feels super akward without it.

your right, We maybe can make this happen if a group of us tweet GC and maybe he can look up into it . Blizz tend to accept QOL changes more than buffs/nerfs these days

[Gohzerlock]

Pvp changes needed.... maybe. Pve is fine.

[Werst]

The spec is more than just pve....just that its so gawdawful in pvp nobody can really pvp as demo. Since pvp keeps escalating into less and less of a casting possible environment demo would be a natural choice. To function in pvp demo needs quite a bit of help. Much to blizz's frustration you can't change things for pvp without impacting pve. So in discussing one you must discuss the other.

PVP you can ignore the pet...not like a BM pet or unholy garg (2x other pet specs). Only thing it brings is a MS debuff and a stun vs the magic/fear immunity crowd (AMS/CloS/reflect/etc) Doom is pointless in pvp...however if it generated an imp when ticking vs players or generated an imp when dispelled + refunded its DF cost that would at least be something. Corr is comically little damage in pvp...less than 2K/tick even w' buffs/CD's. You could try doing the inverse of destro's CB and make CW, doom, and ToC hit players 25% harder but blizz seems to only like changes like that in destro's direction. Demo's casted spells just don't happen in pvp so we need fel flame as a filler there or some manner of getting pressure out + building DF. This is where spamming FF is okay in terms of PVP but questionable in pve. Without doing something specific in terms of FF's damage vs players or cost vs players. Could try something like refunds 50% (or whatever the present base resil % is) mana cost when striking a hostile player target. That would work in pve and pvp without mucking up either in terms of crossover.

Corr really doesn't feel like it has a niche in demo now...just kind of left over from another age and just as a DF engine (not a damage source). Since HoG weaving has always been a hallmark of a good demo player I thought extending shadowflame (and/or buffing it) would be a good place to put back in what would be taken out if corruption vanished from demo's spellbook. It would also preserve the "skillcap" element of playing demo to an extent.

ToC vs Soulfire is an interesting choice but ToC's scaling is so bad its really not a choice unless you have to move. At higher gear levels you can clearly check (via Zinn's sheet) that its often little better than shadowbolt to use which is basically unacceptable for a DF consuming spell. Just feels like a place w' room for improvement.

Demo having no ranged aoe is an issue for those who like to play the spec. Hence pondering on maybe changing void ray to be a ranged aoe solution since its a complete turd sandwich now. Just try aoe (not cleave) on say siegecrafter bombs without risking the raid.... Since its tied to fel flame that makes it more complicated but again that's something that has pvp ramifications.

[Jessicka]

A few people are asking for some very big changes here. I don't feel as if some are asking for fixes so much as a new spec. Basically I think things are fine mechanically overall, but some improvements could be made of course:

- Ranged AoE.
- Extra Imp at Imp Swarm for more Fury control and PvP burst.
- Different scaling for damage on things like Chaos Wave, Soul Fire for PvP.

[6kle]

I would like to see something done to Void Ray and Chaos Wave. Void Ray has been a design failure from the start imo and it only got worse in 5.4. This spell has zero fans, no one will miss it. I wonder if anyone even uses it anymore. Chaos Wave competes against HoG and loses in almost any situation. I don't bother with it, feels like a waste of fury and HoG charges.

[Jessicka]

I would like to see something done to Void Ray and Chaos Wave. Void Ray has been a design failure from the start imo and it only got worse in 5.4. This spell has zero fans, no one will miss it. I wonder if anyone even uses it anymore. Chaos Wave competes against HoG and loses in almost any situation. I don't bother with it, feels like waste of fury and HoG charges.

Void Ray: On very large trash packs, especially when you'll get killing blows to offset it's monstrous cost. All part of the melee AE problem.
Chaos Wave: When something needs to be dead right now. PvP burst. Think it's okay for a spell to have mainly a PvP use over PvE.

[Xanatas]

A few people are asking for some very big changes here. I don't feel as if some are asking for fixes so much as a new spec. Basically I think things are fine mechanically overall, but some improvements could be made of course:

- Ranged AoE.
- Extra Imp at Imp Swarm for more Fury control and PvP burst.
- Different scaling for damage on things like Chaos Wave, Soul Fire for PvP.

this for me is a good solution, in 5.0 chaos wave was OP, now chaos wave is garbish.

i think demonology (and affliction) need an "ember tap", consuming fury to regain a % of healt. Dark mending?

- - - Updated - - -

and blizzard need absoluly to tune down mana cost for fel flame.

In 5.4 warlock is the class with minor armor.

[Thelxi]

Uvls made me sick of the spec. It also feels so fury starved now. Demo is a lot of effort for pretty much the same thing I can get pressing 3 buttons with destruction, only no ember tap and no sacrificing if I feel like it.

[Werst]

Problem with chaoswave in pvp is that even w' every 2 min CD used it tops out at about a 70K crit with sub 2% chance to double crit. Use CW anytime without all the CD's and its not even something anyone would notice. The only time void ray hits anything is if you get a DK aoe grip and then only 1-2 casts might hit multiple targets. Its just insanely expensive for mediocre damage at best with very awkward targeting mechanics. Its almost useless if you are trying to use it on any Z axis change.

The departure of old MF means you aren't hitting multiple targets with chaoswave anymore so the team/aoe pressure perk is gone. Its just hitting for jack **** compared to what other specs burst for. Since you are talking about a demo CW based burst being 2x spells back to back that is a big swing in crit possibilities. Make it significant with 0-1 crit and its OP on the sub 2% double crit. Hence why I think a soulfire/chaosbolt treatment would help in finding a pvp balance point for the spell.

[Deleted]

You do have 2 specs that are viable at all ilvls. Every tier we go through this. "Don't go affliction until you're at 490 ilvl" "Don't go afflic until you're 525 ilvl" "Don't go afflic until your 555 ilvl". It doesn't reset every tier like everyone thinks it does. If you were afflic last tier, you can be afflic this tier regardless of ilvl. Your stats didn't go down.

And "After the hot fixes 2-3 weeks ago, they can't do anything better than destro can't". And? Your argument is what? That's fine. There will always be one spec edging the others. But we have 3 viable specs unlike most pures. And they can do it just as well. Part of the reason destro does well is because it's so user friendly. You can have poor play and do okay. Demo you can't. Afflic you can't.

And previous to mop, demo wasn't even a thought in pvp.

you do know that there was a very valid reason why ppl said that you shouldnt spec afflic until you reacheda certain ilvl, right? afflic got nerfs at the begining at pretty much every tier so far except maybe 5.4, coz blizz found out afflic scaled really well, so they buffed destro to be the spec to go for progression for optimal performance but you're right, our stats didnt go down, blizz nerfs to the spec went up but ofc we can still spec afflic, i can also choose to raid while having both my talent specializations cleared and only wanding but that doesnt mean its the optimal way to go.

i have to admit ive never liked demo, ive always found it way to clunky and i still do, so i never took the time to learn it, not pre UVLS or post UVLS but with the recent nerfs to it, it can still perform but you need to know the spec and know it well, increasing the skillcap quite significantly that isnt necesarily a bad thing tho, but you need to take your time and i think above all else the skillcap needed to perform optimally with demo needs to be "dumbed" down a bit in order to make it a bit more approachable to ppl.

[Jessicka]

Uvls made me sick of the spec. It also feels so fury starved now. Demo is a lot of effort for pretty much the same thing I can get pressing 3 buttons with destruction, only no ember tap and no sacrificing if I feel like it.

I had that issue, but I found using Glyph of Imp Swarm helps out hugely in that regard and while it might be a theoretical loss, having the Fury when I most need it gives me much better results.

[Werst]

Jessicka have you tried the really high haste demo setup (14.8K for the shadowflame breakpoint)? DF isn't a problem...its usually having lots of it but no procs to spend it on. If you precast soulfire, get your corr and 2x hogs out you should have enough time for all CD's popped and getting into meta for a 10x BB doom w' everything up. From there its just a lot of praying for procs at good times. BTW, I've quit worrying about corruption and just manually refresh in caster as needed vs spending ToC's on it IF I have the MC procs. Its also not worth the shift to meta just to ToC to keep refreshing it from what I can tell. Meaning if you have darksoul + 2pc or a trinket proc and 7+ MC stacks its worth more to dump them then shift back to caster and corr than interrupt the perfect storm of buffs to recorruption the target.

As much as a high skillcap should be rewarding demo is bordering on unrealistic for even most raiders, even "progression" raiders and certainly anyone wanting to play the class new.

[Jessicka]

Jessicka have you tried the really high haste demo setup (14.8K for the shadowflame breakpoint)? DF isn't a problem...its usually having lots of it but no procs to spend it on. If you precast soulfire, get your corr and 2x hogs out you should have enough time for all CD's popped and getting into meta for a 10x BB doom w' everything up. From there its just a lot of praying for procs at good times. BTW, I've quit worrying about corruption and just manually refresh in caster as needed vs spending ToC's on it IF I have the MC procs. Its also not worth the shift to meta just to ToC to keep refreshing it from what I can tell. Meaning if you have darksoul + 2pc or a trinket proc and 7+ MC stacks its worth more to dump them then shift back to caster and corr than interrupt the perfect storm of buffs to recorruption the target.

As much as a high skillcap should be rewarding demo is bordering on unrealistic for even most raiders, even "progression" raiders and certainly anyone wanting to play the class new.

Not sure I can even get there with my gear, I've been picking up Mastery/Crit stuff then reforging for 8.1k Haste > Mastery > Crit > Haste. It works fine, I only felt Fury starved playing without the Glyph because I think the steadier stream encouraged me to use it poorly, whereas the Glyph kinda 'forces' me to use it more effectively. I know it works for me, perhaps because I'd become so accustomed to it playing through from 4.0 to pretty late in 4.3 when I actually picked up UVLS that way. I think Bindings play a big part in it too; if you consider how hard even the weaker and fewer Imps are hitting, plus offering up a bunch of Soul Fire procs to use under the same conditions you can get a really big spike of damage out there while it and Dark Soul are up.