Siegecrafter Blackfuse Assembly Line Waves (Heroic Planning)

[Narrow]

An easy way to have your whole belt team on the same page is to create a weakaura in weakaura 2 that shows what they will be hitting every time.

[Pennoyer]

Did you watch his video? The MW way seems the easiest to copy from what I've seen!

Idk.. I feel like Empowered Missiles + Laser is easier to deal with than Empowered Magnet + Laser. Missiles and Electromagnet both require movement, but missiles are generally avoidable while electromagnet does damage you can't avoid and causes a sawblade to fly through your group, and the add's aoe keeps hitting you. I think conceptually-speaking it's probably easier to organize a raid group by killing all missiles though and just powering through the damage and higher dps requirements from having more mines w/ more gear.

[Deleted]

So, we're doing this on 10 HC now. What's the general consensus? I assume lazers, as DPS wise we outgear this alot.

[Deleted]

So, we're doing this on 10 HC now. What's the general consensus? I assume lazers, as DPS wise we outgear this alot.

If you are planning to outgear the encounter, I think that the following kill order deletes most of the "skill check". The drawback is that you get a lot of mines, but if your gear is high and with a good setup it should not be a problem.

Missile
Laser
Missile
Laser
Missile
Crawler
Laser
Crawler
Laser
Laser
Missile
Laser

Personally we did not use that killorder as we instead at a kill order more revolving around killing off the mines and then dealing with the mechanical part of the fight, but that was a bit also because our setup did not allow us to kill mines as good as we wanted to. We did try that order and it was for sure doable even with our subpar setup.

[EvreliaGaming]

Idk.. I feel like Empowered Missiles + Laser is easier to deal with than Empowered Magnet + Laser. Missiles and Electromagnet both require movement, but missiles are generally avoidable while electromagnet does damage you can't avoid and causes a sawblade to fly through your group, and the add's aoe keeps hitting you. I think conceptually-speaking it's probably easier to organize a raid group by killing all missiles though and just powering through the damage and higher dps requirements from having more mines w/ more gear.

Sawblades don't go anywhere near your group if you position properly. Having missile + empowered laser at once is just a headache.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, for 25 man yes. I was talking about 10 man. Translating the 25 man tactic to 10 man is not a reciepe for success. We did that a few attempts and just did not work at all. Sure it was doable but there are several easier ways in 10 man. 10 man is not reliant on stacking up to the same extent that 25 man is.

I'm curious, what part do you feel does not translate to 10 man? There's no major mechanical differences between 10/25 on this fight, and I have seen it done.

[Tojara]

Mines are actually fairly easy to deal with, doing them also gives you an enormous amount of room to work with. Most of the problems we had was the third empower. Empowered laser lasts 20 seconds into this phase from the previous weapon phase and you know have saw blades, fire, saw blades from the boss, and missiles to deal with.

I think his statement regarding 25 and 10 is that this combination is incredibly dangerous due to margin of error you have. Throwing lots of raid CDs at this point makes this part a tad bit easier, where depending on your composition in 10 man that might not be an option.

[EvreliaGaming]

Mines are actually fairly easy to deal with, doing them also gives you an enormous amount of room to work with. Most of the problems we had was the third empower. Empowered laser lasts 20 seconds into this phase from the previous weapon phase and you know have saw blades, fire, saw blades from the boss, and missiles to deal with.

I think his statement regarding 25 and 10 is that this combination is incredibly dangerous due to margin of error you have. Throwing lots of raid CDs at this point makes this part a tad bit easier, where depending on your composition in 10 man that might not be an option.

That combo does sound incredibly dangerous, but it's not the combination I suggested. The third wave is Magnet + Laser, which is very easy to deal with if you position correctly. When the magnet comes on you wait 1 second for the laser, then run to a safe spot and sit tight.

[Deleted]

I'm curious, what part do you feel does not translate to 10 man? There's no major mechanical differences between 10/25 on this fight, and I have seen it done.

While there are no mechanical difference, there is a difference in how 10 and 25 people execute said mechanics. I agree that the "25 man tactic" works in 10 man, but it is far from the best in my opinion. A lot of people have probably used the 25 man tactic for 10 man, it works, but in my opinion there are far better ways to deal with the fight.

A lot of 10 mans tend to gravitate around staying spread rather than stacking up which is the 25 man goto. Depends on the strategy you use, but most of the time people use 4-5 people on the conveyor, as in teams of 2+2 or 2+3, but I have seen people use 3 and 6 aswell. That means that around 50% of your raid team is constantly on the move anyway and 20% is the tanks who are obviously not stacking with ranged anyhow. Suddenly about 70% of your team in ineligeble for stacking for a majority of the fight. This causes a lot of the 10 mans, quite frankly every team that I have talked to about this boss, to prefer spreading out.

AoE heals just become terribly inefficient in a 10 man environment at siegecrafter compared to a 25 man raid, so the hassle of stacking up is not really worth it.
The other issue comes in with sawblades. I am not sure if this is common in 25 man tactics, but atleast a 25 man guild on my realm used the tactic that during the fire phase, they would place the sawblades inside the fire. While that is doable in 10 man, that is a lot easier in a 25 man due to having a wider aray of external cooldowns and a 25 man could actually devote 1 healer to heal the player that got superheated. Getting superheated in 10 man is manageable, but not to the same extent as in 25 and often resulted in a death. The only players that could really place sawblades in fire for us was rogue with CoS or Boomkin with CoS or anyone with a major defensive CD, however it is a wasted CD in 10 man when you can just spread out instead and place sawblades safely even during empowered fire phase and keep that CD for later. Especially boomkin CoS considering how extremely helpful that is when killing the weapons.

Since you are spreading out, that makes mines a bigger problem and drills a far smaller one. Once again also the numbers difference. There is only 10 people that need to move from missiles in 10 man and 25 in 25 man. But once again, both the tanks and the 2 people on the belt can completely ignore the missiles. That means 40% of your raid dont even need to care about dodging the missiles. The same is not true for 25 man as a larger % of the raid has to pay close attention to the missiles. As a tank I eat missiles for breakfast to avoid unneeded movement. Ofc if I can easily dodge missiles I do so. Empowered Missiles are also possibly the easiest empowerment you can possibly get in 10 man. I am not sure how much health they got in 25 man, so may be as easy in 25 man. But we always place the missile houses next to the tanks. As a tank I can solo the house before the third explosion, if a ranged help me it is down before the second one. I then just move clockwise and kill all 3. Regular missiles are far harder than empowered missiles. I would assume that empowered missiles is a bigger problem for 25 man than 10 man but not sure.

The other thing is mines. A 25 man group is undeniably more well suited for bringing down mines than 10 man. We seen enough videos of ring of frost staggering all mines into 1 sqm then blowing them all up. Sure, some 10 man comps handle mines well, but not all. Also once again, tanks and healers dont really help much on mines except for the occational damage opportunity and CC. Same goes with the people on the belt. The means that 60-70% of your 10 man raid can barely do anything useful on the mines. Dealing with mines is not hard in 10 man, but we found it to be a far bigger hassle then moving 2 yards out of a missile. As 10 mans are also not stacked as much as 25 mans, mines spread out more.
We actually tried paragons tactic that involves getting a lot of mines. We thought it was a really good tactic, and would definately recommend it to people doing Siegecrafter now, presuming the got the gear and setup to deal with the mines. It did not work for us though as when doing siegecrafter we had to deal with 2 of our best dps being away. The replacements we had in for siegecrafter progress had really sub-par gear, which forced us to use 5 people (2+3) on the belt. Now we use 1/2/1/2/2/2/2 once we got more gear, but that was just not reliable then. Having that many people on belt while having a few non-raiders helping out in the raid, dealing with the mines was just more trouble than it was worth. But that is one of the two tactics that I think is the best for 10 mans, granted you have to group for it. But it rather requires you to be able to deal with the belt on 4 people.
Wether you should kill mines on the belt or in the pit on 10 man is more a matter of what group composition and gear you have and is fairly open for debate.

Another thing is that 25's tend to tank the boss closer to the belt where the mines spawn. 10 man groups generally likes to tank the boss on the opposite side of the room. As an extremely larger % of your dps team is going up on the belt, having them have easy access to the belt is key to the fight in 10 man. We found that being on the opposite side of the room caused to much downtime for the belt team. I see on your guide video that you have 2-3 people even standing /afk waiting 10-15 seconds to get on the belt at one point. In 10 man that would just be a no-no-no. You cant afford to lose that DPS as much as you can in 25. The belt team is also further away from the mine spawn again leaving you f-ed on that. And generally we felt like the CC in our comp was not enough to just tank the boss where the mines spawn and kill them there. This is also another reason why mines is more annoying in 10 than 25. In 25 man mines does not create that much movement as they often die on the spot. In 10 we (may be due to group comp), have to run around kiting the mines a lot. Mines actually create far more movement for our raid than missiles does.

We found that using our tactic that involved killed a lot of mines, the only hard part was transitioning from the second wave of weapons (overpowered laser) to the third wave (magnet). A part of the fight where we dropped all of our raid cds. The second magnet also required some raid CDs but was easier than the first.

Now this is just my take on the fight from a 10 man PoV, have not done it in 25.

[Deleted]

kill mines every wave

Pretty much what we did for our kill.

[Pennoyer]

Do the missile turrets always drop clockwise around the room?

[Deleted]

Do the missile turrets always drop clockwise around the room?

Yes. The first missile turret spawns randomly on any player including tanks. It spawns at the edge of the room in the direction that player is standing seen from the centre.

After that the next 2 spawn clockwise with a preset distance between them.

[Pennoyer]

Yes. The first missile turret spawns randomly on any player including tanks. It spawns at the edge of the room in the direction that player is standing seen from the centre.

After that the next 2 spawn clockwise with a preset distance between them.

Awesome, thanks... I guess because it's that predictable I just don't see how empowered missile + regular laser isn't the easiest combo in the fight. Based on Justwait's post it seems like you can take that combo on waves 1 and 10 to spare you an empowered mines and empowered laser during the fight. For wave 1 you could just spawn the turrets such that you end up next to the mine spawn area and probably get some more dps on the boss during lust since the turrets only have like 10 mil health. For wave 10 you don't have to really worry about mines anymore.

Ofc I'm still 2-3 weeks away from the fight so I've just watched a lot of videos and streams of ppl attempting the fight. It sees like when mines jump off at random spots they become a big pain in the ass because then you have to kite or knock them around everywhere.

[Deleted]

Awesome, thanks... I guess because it's that predictable I just don't see how empowered missile + regular laser isn't the easiest combo in the fight. Based on Justwait's post it seems like you can take that combo on waves 1 and 10 to spare you an empowered mines and empowered laser during the fight. For wave 1 you could just spawn the turrets such that you end up next to the mine spawn area and probably get some more dps on the boss during lust since the turrets only have like 10 mil health. For wave 10 you don't have to really worry about mines anymore.

Ofc I'm still 2-3 weeks away from the fight so I've just watched a lot of videos and streams of ppl attempting the fight. It sees like when mines jump off at random spots they become a big pain in the ass because then you have to kite or knock them around everywhere.

Sometimes you kill a certain weapon not because of that wave of weapons, but because it affects what weapon gets empowered 1 or 2 waves later.

But yes, empowered missile + anything is really really easy, empowered missiles + empowered laser is probably the easiest combination you can possibly get in 10 man. It is basically impossible to die during that wave.

[Pennoyer]

Sometimes you kill a certain weapon not because of that wave of weapons, but because it affects what weapon gets empowered 1 or 2 waves later.

But yes, empowered missile + anything is really really easy, empowered missiles + empowered laser is probably the easiest combination you can possibly get in 10 man. It is basically impossible to die during that wave.

Yeah just looking at Justwait's post and looking at the order I just chose Waves 1 and 10 because those seem like ideal times to add 'points' to missiles and prevent you from having to deal with more mines and the laser fire that seems to stick around for a long time. Like Evrelia quoted me for above, I bet shockwave missiles is a lot harder w/ the empowered laser maze.

Edit: This is what I wrote out in notepad real quick for 25m lol

1: Empowered Missile + Laser (kill Mine)
2: Empowered Mine + Laser (kill Missile)
3: Empowered Magnet + Laser (kill Missile)
4: Empowered Laser + Mine (kill Missile)
5: Empowered Magnet + Mine (kill Missile)
6: Empowered Mine + Laser (kill Mine)
7: Empowered Laser + Mine (kill Missile)
8: Empowered Magnet + Mine (kill Missile)
9: Empowered Mine + Laser (kill Laser)
10: Empowered Missile + Laser (kill Mine)
11: Empowered Missile + Magnet (kill Missile)
12: Magnet/Mine/Laser

[Deleted]

Yeah just looking at Justwait's post and looking at the order I just chose Waves 1 and 10 because those seem like ideal times to add 'points' to missiles and prevent you from having to deal with more mines and the laser fire that seems to stick around for a long time. Like Evrelia quoted me for above, I bet shockwave missiles is a lot harder w/ the empowered laser maze.

Shockwave missiles is actually fairly easy with empowered maze. We found mines during maze to be harder (but still easy) as you cant really kite them a lot. The hard part about the overpowered maze is the transition into the next weapon, especially if it is magnet, as the maze is still up for a fair amount of time going into the next set of weapons.

[Tojara]

Yup only big shitty thing I found was when you had the remnants of the overcharged laser going into an overpowered magnet. You can however make it so that doesn't happen, but it comes at the cost of mines, which is less boss DPS.

[Deleted]

Edit: This is what I wrote out in notepad real quick for 25m lol

I am not entirely sure about 25 man as I was talking about 10 man earlier. But plenty of 25 man guides out there.

[Deleted]

Yeah, for 25 man yes. I was talking about 10 man. Translating the 25 man tactic to 10 man is not a reciepe for success. We did that a few attempts and just did not work at all. Sure it was doable but there are several easier ways in 10 man. 10 man is not reliant on stacking up to the same extent that 25 man is.

I agree with this. 25 man strategies can't always be 100% adopted. We haven't managed to kill this boss yet, though having different key players missing hasn't made it easier for us.

Firefly can I ask what setup you used and how you did it? Seeing you're a 10 man guild, I'd be interested in this.

[Deleted]

I agree with this. 25 man strategies can't always be 100% adopted. We haven't managed to kill this boss yet, though having different key players missing hasn't made it easier for us.

Firefly can I ask what setup you used and how you did it? Seeing you're a 10 man guild, I'd be interested in this.

Orginally our setup was
Prot Pal
Prot War
Resto Druid
Disc Priest
DPS War
Rogue
Boomkin
Warlock
Mage
Ele Shammy

But during progression our warlock went away for 1 week and our warrior quit, so we brought in a second boomkin and a non-raider hunter.

We had well over 300 wipes on the fight having to deal with new people, people generally failing more than they should and missing 2 dpsers from the main team. We had the joy to try almost every concievable tactic. When we started the fight there was not a single video out from 10 man and only 1 or 2 from 25 man, so we kinda went in blind. We tried adapting some 25 man tactics, but in the end realised it was way to much trouble. We tried having the boss over where the robots spawn, but decided it was better keeping him on the opposite side as it allowed for easier access for the belt team to the belt. We tried prioritising mines, missiles and lasers from several different positions etc, basically tried every approach we found concievable. I do not think I have done as many tactic 180's on any fight before.
In the end we had to settle for the approach that we called the "Skill check tactic", as our group did not have the dps, due to gear and classes, to really do any other tactic. The tactic we used requires the least amount of dps but the most amount of dodging shit. Still, it is in my opinion fairly easy, but there will always be someone failing. We had it to the extent that we told our disc priest that he was not allowed to use pain supression on anyone except himself as he died quite frequently.

The biggest problem we had missing our dpsers was that we had to send 2 people to the belt and 3 people every other time instead of sending 2 and 2 as we did on the early progression when we still had the core team. This was done quite overgeared though, even on our second kill we began sending our rogue solo on the first belt, and after that 2+2 the entire way through.

Dont have a VoD of our kill, but Fusion used almost the exact same positioning and kill order as us (atleast for all the relevant ways, differed a bit on the easy bits).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOHaTG9_6SE#t=284

Feels like I could go too much into detail here. Is there any specific part of the fight you are having issues with? What are the stengths and weaknesses of your group?

To me there are 2 kill orders that make good sense in 10 man. It what we referred to as "The skill check".

Kill: Mine, Mine, Laser, Mine, Mine, Mine, Mine, Mine Mine, Mine, Missile, Mine. Boss should be dead around the 8th-9th belt.

And the gear / dps / aoe check (basically kill a lot of mines)

Kill: Missile, Laser, Missile, Laser, Missile, Mine, Laser, Mine, Laser, Laser, Missile, Mine (boss should be dead around 9th-10th belt.

The benefit of this tactic is that you only get one empowered laser, and that laser is not followed by a magnet. Which makes it easy. Basically it should be impossible for your raid team to die on the drills/fire/magnets using this tactic, however you will be dealing with a shitton of mines to kill. We tried this tactic, found it to be very easy, and definately something I would recommend to guilds getting to siegecrafter later, thus having better gear, as it puts more focus on gear rather than moving out from shit. We however opted out of this as our roster with 2 "new" dpsers in it, getting mines simply did not work. We lacked the DPS for it. Boss went down far to slow and mines was too big of a problem, so for my group doing the first mentioned tactic proved easier.

Of course you can make modifications to these kill orders, especially later on. Just a guideline.

[Deleted]

We've had 110 wipes so far, so I guess we're looking at a lot more lol.

We've been trying different approaches depending on what classes we had available. From the first many attempts it felt like the Missiles were an issue, so we then tried getting Empowered Mines. That turned out to be difficult, cause we lacked CC. We've tried double BM Hunter setup for the belt, with a Rogue and an Ele Shaman as the 2 others.

Honestly this fight reminds me so much of Heroic Lei Shen during progress. People tend to panic, they forget the patterns, drop Sawblades and Fire the wrong places and thus only giving tanks 1 Sawblade for the Shredder. In return that results in a fourth Overload, and if the people going on the belt comes down during the fourth Overload, they're likely to die, unless they're a Rogue.

We did look very detailed into Evrelia's strategy and we did try to copy it. The issue is lack of cc, although that sorted itself, once we forced our Mage to go Frost.

We've been discussing what tactic to go with over and over and we've been testing several different ones. Some say we should stop changing tactic all the time and just keep going with one - even though there's zero improvement after 20 wipes. Others say the opposite and I think people are getting confused tbh.

I think our optimal setup looks like this:

Bear+Warrior tank

Rogue+Frost DK

Destru Lock
Frost Mage
BM Hunter
Ele Shaman
(Spriest)
(2nd BM Hunter)

Disc Priest
MW Monk (The 2nd BM Hunter)
(Resto Druid)

But the coming reset we don't have our Mage, so we have to use our Spriest or go back to 2xBM Hunter, meaning our Resto Druid has to heal. And since he gets targeted by shit and the MW Monk doesn't, healing just felt a lot more fragile with him.

But if I had to pick out one single thing that we really suck at, I'd say it's remembering how to position everything perfectly and if there's 1 thing we're good at, it's probably putting more responsibility on a few key members tbh.