Combat

[Deleted]

Is Pure haste the way to go as combat? im at 16k haste atm but it feels wasted tbh, my instinct tells me to go agility :/

[Sesshou]

Hmm, well I just checked my magic 8 ball and it said yes. If you want more mathematically sound reasoning, I suggest you check shadowcraft or simcraft.

[Coldkil]

I just checked my magic 8 ball and it said yes

LOL.

Jokes apart, check shadowcraft for mathematic proof - gemming pure haste for combat is favorbale, mostly because 320 haste > 160 agility.

[ymirsson]

There is a distinction between feelings, calculations and results ingame. Choose what is most important to you and stick with it.

[Sturmgewehr86]

I dislike gemming pure haste mainly becouse when u switch specs u gotta switch gems too.Agility is sound choice for all 3 rogue specs.

[shadowboy]

There is a point where agi is better for combat but it varies a LOT by gear. Just in playing around with gear options on my rogue I've seen haste vary from 1.3EP (agi gemming area) to 2.1 EP (a point where the 480 haste JC gems become better than the 320 agi ones, and optimal gemming for quilen hide boots is to put pure haste gems into the red sockets and ignoring the 120 mastery bonus).

From quick looking via shadowcraft, the T15 4-set inflates the value of haste (especially if you also have AoC). It seems counter-intuitive, but that's what I've observed. As soon as I drop T15 4-set, haste drops from ~2.0-2.1EP to ~1.3-1.4.

[Ryme]

What shadowboy said, I'm currently at the point now where agility is worth 2.865 and haste is worth 1.478. This means the EP difference in, say a red socket, between a 160 agility gem and an 80 agility 160 haste gem is close to negligible.

I played around with making a preliminary BiS set just to see how stat ratings changed at maximum gear levels. With a gear set that provided 392,600 dps, I found the following EP values:

Expertise = 4.306808823465267
Agility = 2.9400372002982973
Haste = 1.6342629404100102
Mastery = 1.4830473745092156
Crit = 1.4199781041437236
Hit = 1.0632749161377593
Strength = 1.0499999999774572

MainHand Dps = 3.8831802518347525
OffHand Dps = 1.0662530076530101

Which means the gap between gemming haste and gemming agility does diverge, but remains at a level that I would deem to be negligible. So feel free to gem agility if you're only using one gear set and want to get better results with your other spec.

---

I actually now want to see the effect of things like time off boss and target switching does to stat weights, I'm still learning to manipulate shadowcraft, so this will probably be done through simulationcraft, but I'll post results here.

[Verain]

You really gotta put your balls on the table to gem haste as combat. The gain is normally less than 1k dps versus even agi>mastery, and smaller versus agi>haste gem types, and it locks you into combat pretty soundly, as the other specs value agility at a much higher rate than haste.

[Deleted]

Gemming haste works better when cleaving as you're not lacking energy, already limited by blade flurry. On single target it's less noticeable. Shadowcraft seems to support this: you can check/uncheck blade flurry and see the difference between agi and haste gemming is bigger with blade flurry on.

Edit: Also - according to shadowcraft, in my gearset I'm losing about 1% sustained damage as subtlety with combat haste gemming. Shadow dance burst is worse though, specials hit for much less.

[Deleted]

What aylie said. In single target it ain't a big deal going agi or haste, but the moment you activate blade flurry haste overweights agi, atleast last time I checked shadowcraft.

As I play rogue only as alt I have one question also. I have 4set and aoc, two slow weapons. Most quides etc say I should use killing spree on cd, but in situation where my spree is ready and adrenalineblades got one minute left on cd, I rather wait for deep insight buff and then pop spree, but always before adrenablades, since during that spam fest spree is ready or atleast almost ready to be used again. Is there any reason not to do this?

Also sometimes I still have 10s or even 20s cd left on spree and adrenablades are ready, I quickly try to get spree ready, use it immediately and after that I pop adrenablades. This is something I think is situational, but can you give me anything more accurate than just my own opinion?

[Ryme]

So, after doing some 25k iteration simulations. Nothing of wild note was discovered, haste maintains it's lead in even heavy moment (4 seconds of movement every 10 seconds). Crit increases in value the less time you are on the boss relative to mastery, which is to be expected.

Being the boob that I am, I forgot to analyse these effects measured against agility, so I'm going back and checking that now.

- - - Updated - - -

So, checking against agility, the only thing of note is that the EP difference in gemming agility haste and agility crit in exceptionally high movement/off the boss situations becomes very small.

[shadowboy]

There really aren't many encounters that follow the "heavy movement" type of simcraft encounter. I've found the most realistic is actually "Helter Skelter."

In T15 I ran all dps specs in all of the various single target simcraft encounter models just to see how different specs' dps was affected by encounter mechanics. What I found was that the spread was smallest in the Helter Skelter mode. Assuming simcraft gets dps and mechanics right, it leads me to believe that "helter skelter" is the basic type of encounter that blizzard balances against.

[Terces]

I think the only moment thus far that has made me question the haste route has been on H Malkorak. We were doing attempts on him last night for the first time as a guild and it's the most "tank n spank" scenario I've encountered so far. That being said (and this might just be because I'm still getting used to Combat) but I did catch myself capping energy quite a few times, which I hate to see. But you also have to remember that haste improves our auto attacks so there's that I suppose. I guess I just wasn't used to it since coming from Assassination but definitely think haste is still the way to go.

[Ryme]

It's also worth noting that a good deal of crit's value comes from rupture usage. If you're not using rupture, crit's lead over mastery in helter skelter type fights reduces.

[Escapes]

I dislike gemming pure haste mainly becouse when u switch specs u gotta switch gems too.Agility is sound choice for all 3 rogue specs.

I was looking into this as I want to be able to switch from Combat to Assassination based on the current situation. Right now I can just switch specs from Combat to Assassination and lose about 3k sheet DPS.

Shadowcraft DPS as combat (pure haste): 313391.6 DPS
Shadowcraft DPS as Assassination (Combat reforges/gems pure haste, just switching specs and weapons): 310341.0 DPS
Shadowcraft DPS as Assassination (Using recommended reforges/gems): 312338.1 DPS

[shadowboy]

Crit is finisher-agnostic. Crit doesn't increase in value any more with rupture than it does evis-only. Crit's value as combat is solely determined by how much agility, haste, and mastery you have. Combat's mechanics do not interact with crit in any significant way.

- - - Updated - - -

I was looking into this as I want to be able to switch from Combat to Assassination based on the current situation. Right now I can just switch specs from Combat to Assassination and lose about 3k sheet DPS.

Shadowcraft DPS as combat (pure haste): 313391.6 DPS
Shadowcraft DPS as Assassination (Combat reforges/gems pure haste, just switching specs and weapons): 310341.0 DPS
Shadowcraft DPS as Assassination (Using recommended reforges/gems): 312338.1 DPS

You shouldn't use shadowcraft to make cross-spec dps comparisons like that. Use simulationcraft for that. The assassination-assassination comparison is valid, but not the combat-assassination comparisons.

[Sesshou]

I think the only moment thus far that has made me question the haste route has been on H Malkorak. We were doing attempts on him last night for the first time as a guild and it's the most "tank n spank" scenario I've encountered so far. That being said (and this might just be because I'm still getting used to Combat) but I did catch myself capping energy quite a few times, which I hate to see. But you also have to remember that haste improves our auto attacks so there's that I suppose. I guess I just wasn't used to it since coming from Assassination but definitely think haste is still the way to go.

I'd say that Iron Jugg is far more tank and spank because it has 0 adds and full boss uptime. H Malk has adds and potential dps down time if you end up needing to get in a pool and its not quite in range. I spent a pretty hefty amount of time with BF on for that fight, so I'm not really seeing how H Malk is making you cap energy more than Jugg. I also don't really see how you are capping energy outside of hero/lust + AR/SB. I had a little over 18k haste before I got my h wf harroms and I wouldn't cap during AR/SB, and then the BF time slows that down a lot.

And I still think my use of the magic 8 ball to answer the op is the best response so far... I woulda thought he would have given us his armory so some one could actually check for his gear set, but whatever.

[Deleted]

I haven't replied anything since i have no idea what to say but i've read it all. I simply wanted some insight. I just like to go agility because i want higher numbers instead of a faster gameplay if you know what i mean. But ofc if haste is the way to go im going haste, gotta strive to be the best!
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...iktac/advanced heres my armory link dunno what that would help but whatever

[Ryme]

I haven't replied anything since i have no idea what to say but i've read it all. I simply wanted some insight. I just like to go agility because i want higher numbers instead of a faster gameplay if you know what i mean. But ofc if haste is the way to go im going haste, gotta strive to be the best!
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...iktac/advanced heres my armory link dunno what that would help but whatever

I think sight was probably lost of the initial thread at some point, but hey, it's always fun when that happens!

Crit is finisher-agnostic. Crit doesn't increase in value any more with rupture than it does evis-only. Crit's value as combat is solely determined by how much agility, haste, and mastery you have. Combat's mechanics do not interact with crit in any significant way.

I wasn't sure on this, but I thought to test it if nothing other than to check the issue since many combat rogues do not use rupture. The results I got showed a convergence in crit to mastery when not using it in a helter skelter environment to using it. The gap between crit and mastery was about 10% larger whilst using rupture (again, in helter skelter environment, I did not test patchwerk)

[shadowboy]

I would argue that the reason that mastery pulls further ahead than crit (or closer to crit, if crit is ahead in your gear set) when using a ruptureless cycle is not because crit favors rupture more than eviscerate but because eviscerate favors mastery more than rupture does. Eviscerate can proc MG. Rupture doesn't.