To people whom want LFR removed: What endgame do you propose for the casual players?

[Tsuna]

The thing is that most people that do LFR probably don't have time for higher dificultys.

I don't think this is possible. I've seen many raiding teams who dedicated time slots of no more than two hours to a raid night and with the growing popularity of Openraid and raid scheduling for flex modes that take between 45 minutes to 2 hours typically I no longer think claiming time is the restriction works. In a truly worst case where you NEVER have more than one hour at a time to play, even LFRs are unfeasible because of the tremendous frequency of wiping due to rampant failure. In this case, I couldn't, in good conscience, recommend playing WoW at all.

Many "Casual" LFR players dedicate many hours a week to clearing LFR, though it may be spread over the course of several days, this investment of time still means that pursuing higher levels of raiding is possible. Flex modes are a tremendous improvement to LFR, they fully encourage cooperation and communication between players and benefit from players establishing lasting contacts and familiar teams. I have no problem believing that in a few months a team of ten strangers across different realms could meet and form an effective "Guild" raiding for a single hour on four different days to clear all of Flex modes on a weekly basis.

But I'm not advocating the destruction of LFR, although I do believe it still needs tuning and design fixes. It has tremendous power as a tool to show people the encounters in a low risk environment. I just feel that the player base as a whole is fully capable of reaching at least Flex level raiding even at the minimal casual levels because of the myriad of cooperation tools available to them.

Endgame content should also more heavily favor 5 man dungeons, the distinction between normal and heroic dungeons that was a critical point of Burning Crusade is something that should return, though perhaps in not such an extreme degree. The bottom line is that Heroic should feel heroic, as it stands not many things in WoW really do that well besides the upper level bosses in SoO normal and of course Hard modes themselves.

[Fungj]

3. Player housing, god damn it. It is a fucking great time sink, works like a charm in every damn game out there which cares to create one. We could add a new secondary profession of Designer/Architector to support housing with items; I won't write a lot here, there are tons of great ideas for housing out there.

NO, just No

[khalltusk]

I don't agree with all, but really good!! That's the way to go. Just improve the game as far as you can. Not giving tools to "kill" your own features or characteristics, just improve, and If you have a problem with something, just find a good solution that affect just ingame, not mechanic of all game.

indeed.

I would much prefer giving players the option to do stuff. Give plenty of content and some options on what to do with your time. Rather than just funneling _everyone_ into raids. By all means keep raids as they are but please add more depth to other areas of the game. If we had more dungeons to do and some more profession related stuff to do (seriously bring back random dungeon smithing plans etc it was always nice to go to a dungeon to get some plans).

I liked your idea on a league table for pet battles. That would be kinda cool. Perhaps they could add in a "tournament" of some sort which starts once a month? You could do it vs NPCs or against players. With some cool rewards for it.

[l33t]

NO, just No

Objective arguments are so objective.

[khalltusk]

NO, just No

UO did housing and its far older than wow! but I am unsure how you would get housing to work in wow with out instancing and I think instancing a house might not be the right way to go.

[r3d3mpt10n]

LFR won't be removed, its Blizzards way of letting casuals experience all of the content, granted ait can be a nightmare at times, but thats just how it is.


Anybody that plays on a regular basis, and expects casuals to not be able to access the same content, isn't seeing the same picture as Blizz do. They made the content accessible for everyone that gives them the exact same amount of money each month.

We all pay the same, therefore we should all be able to experience the majority of the content. And if you are a "hardcore raider" you have the added bonus of being able to try more difficult content.

[Slant]

You won't get good answers, because anyone saying that LFR should be removed simply hasn't thought the issue all the way through, or hasn't been playing long enough to realize that when the game DID have more dungeons, folks got utterly sick of running them, and you had just as many complaints flying around. (just about different topics).

While the game should certainly have more dungeons, and hopefully good ones next time around, LFR isn't, and shouldn't, be going anywhere.

Let me translate that: Everyone who has another opinion than mine is either stupid or has no clue (=stupid). That's a good argument right there.

[Gilian]

I could put in a ton of effort into the game to learn my class, but if I have an erratic schedule, I can't raid at all

Flexible with a proper tool for making groups/finding other players.

Simply replacing the queue LFG tool of LFR with something similar to oQueue or turning LFR into an easier difficulty Flexible raid with an improved LFG tool will do wonders. Players will be more involved and can choose who they want to play with (to some degree) and it won't take longer than how long LFR queues are now and is just as accessible and convenient.

And they should add 5 man dungeons.

[Slant]

People just say that they want LFR removed but dosen't think about the players who spend most of the time doing LFR, I don't say that I like LFR but it needs something to replace it.

Hmm, you're making me think, so I like your post. WoW did exist a long time before LFR was introduced. So clearly that is evidence that WoW without LFR is quite possible. Now, what did LFR add to the game that you'd want preserved? What did it take away from the game that I want preserved? I can't speak for you, but I can speculate that you think the spontaneous raiding experience with next to no difficulty so literally everyone and their cat can "see the content" is the good thing about LFR that is worthy to keep. I personally think LFR removed the necessity to be in an organised group to see the content. I don't think those are mutually exclusive.

In fact, I think Flexraids are exactly the right solution to make both sides happy. And feedback from people on my server and in my guild suggests that indeed, most people are switching from LFR to Flexraids, even the casual ones.

What I'd like to know is who's really running LFR except for valor points and actually enjoying the experience? They'd have to tell us why they want it preserved. And I'll say it now: Things like "I don't like someone telling me what to do" or "I don't like people" are the reason why I'm so militant about LFR removal, because those antisocial leeches can stay very well out of an MMO altogether... Multiplayer Game and you hate people? Sheesh...

[Fus Ro Yay]

3. Player housing, god damn it. It is a fucking great time sink, works like a charm in every damn game out there which cares to create one. We could add a new secondary profession of Designer/Architector to support housing with items; I won't write a lot here, there are tons of great ideas for housing out there.

YES!

the sad part is that its true, for some reason, people are suckers for building their own home / creepin.

[Deleted]

Hey there.
1. 5-man instances, as hard as Cata's prenerf ones. Long, hard, with good story. Designed NOT for matchmaking system, but for a group of guildies communicating in voice chat. With high-level gear droppable from last bosses, preferably weapons and trinkets. Oh, and bring back Dungeon gear sets, with equal to lfr item level, as an alternative.

The problem with this is that the "bad casuals" would not be able to do it, it would just be something else for the "elitist". More dungeons, yes, extended time/difficulty, no as thats not for the "casual" audience!

Hey there.
3. Player housing, god damn it. It is a fucking great time sink, works like a charm in every damn game out there which cares to create one. We could add a new secondary profession of Designer/Architector to support housing with items; I won't write a lot here, there are tons of great ideas for housing out there.

If it is done correctly - yes, this could be a fun feature

[Azgraal]

Back in my day, when "casuals" wanted to see more content, they put more effort into the game...

[Slant]

I think the main problem with player housing is that it removes people from the streets, thus giving each city an empty look. Part of the charm of WoW for me was always that places like SW and IF (or OG if you like) were busy places buzzing with activity. Granted, most of them are idling outside whatever is the AH, but still. You actually saw people. With player housing that charm would be gone almost instantly. I think Blizzard even mentioned that as one of the major concerns, and while it doesn't happen often, I agree with them on this matter.

[Fus Ro Yay]

Back in my day, when "casuals" wanted to see more content, they put more effort into the game...

Or they knew that they couldn't raid at all so they watched Death & taxes, LootFTW and WarEnsemble raid Naxxramas on youtube /googlevideos/guildpages

goodtimes.

[Deleted]

I think the main problem with player housing is that it removes people from the streets, thus giving each city an empty look. Part of the charm of WoW for me was always that places like SW and IF (or OG if you like) were busy places buzzing with activity. Granted, most of them are idling outside whatever is the AH, but still. You actually saw people. With player housing that charm would be gone almost instantly. I think Blizzard even mentioned that as one of the major concerns, and while it doesn't happen often, I agree with them on this matter.

Then put it in a city? A zone in a city like the Halfhill Farm would be doable?

[Fus Ro Yay]

I think the main problem with player housing is that it removes people from the streets, thus giving each city an empty look.

I feel like the cities are empty even on full realms, not because i don't see people. but people don't talk anymore.. remember standing outside IF bank & answering trivia bots?
Remember inspecting that gnome warrior with the headless horseman helm, asking him where he got it, only to get the reply: Scarlet monastery graveyard. then laugh because you didn't believe him?

the cities went empty when people did

[Lolcraft]

Flex for casuals

[Gilian]

Hmm, you're making me think, so I like your post. WoW did exist a long time before LFR was introduced. So clearly that is evidence that WoW without LFR is quite possible. Now, what did LFR add to the game that you'd want preserved? What did it take away from the game that I want preserved? I can't speak for you, but I can speculate that you think the spontaneous raiding experience with next to no difficulty so literally everyone and their cat can "see the content" is the good thing about LFR that is worthy to keep. I personally think LFR removed the necessity to be in an organised group to see the content. I don't think those are mutually exclusive.

In fact, I think Flexraids are exactly the right solution to make both sides happy. And feedback from people on my server and in my guild suggests that indeed, most people are switching from LFR to Flexraids, even the casual ones.

What I'd like to know is who's really running LFR except for valor points and actually enjoying the experience? They'd have to tell us why they want it preserved. And I'll say it now: Things like "I don't like someone telling me what to do" or "I don't like people" are the reason why I'm so militant about LFR removal, because those antisocial leeches can stay very well out of an MMO altogether... Multiplayer Game and you hate people? Sheesh...

I think the people who ignore that just don't want ANY social pressure and think LFR hasn't got any. They just want to leave/slack/afk whenever they feel like it without any consequences. In the meanwhile it's them who are making LFR into an aweful experience.

Like I said Flex is the way to go. And make Flex more convenient and accessible with a proper LFG tool where players have some control over who they group up with (something like oQueue is doing for us now)...

[khalltusk]

Or they knew that they couldn't raid at all so they watched Death & taxes, LootFTW and WarEnsemble raid Naxxramas on youtube /googlevideos/guildpages

goodtimes.

The reality is neither of those for most of them.

They simply quit. Go google blizzards quotes on that!

[Slant]

Then put it in a city? A zone in a city like the Halfhill Farm would be doable?

What's the difference if everyone is sitting in his house admiring his trophies?

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I feel like the cities are empty even on full realms, not because i don't see people. but people don't talk anymore.. remember standing outside IF bank & answering trivia bots?

The cities are empty because the game is declining and Blizzard - as usual - only fixes the problem once it's affecting subscription numbers. Which we seem to have reached now. On my server I used to have 30-50 people in IF between the AH and bank at any given time. Now we have CRZ and I rarely see more than 10 people. If you add player housing to that, the streets will be wiped clean except for the occasional busybody rushing from A to B on his speedboosted mount, flying out of reach for any interaction if at all possible.

- - - Updated - - -

I think the people who ignore that just don't want ANY social pressure and think LFR hasn't got any. They just want to leave/slack/afk whenever they feel like it without any consequences. In the meanwhile it's them who are making LFR into an aweful experience.

Like I said Flex is the way to go. And make Flex more convenient and accessible with a proper LFG tool where players have some control over who they group up with (something like oQueue is doing for us now)...

What is a proper LFG tool? The point of LFG is the priority of getting your group full over choosing who's joining you. Your wish of more control over who actually joins is better achieved by traditionally going through your friend list and asking people if they want to sign up for it. I don't get it.

I agree with the rest, obviously.