Paragons of the Klaxxi Heroic 25

[Neldarie]

I think someone's brain got cooked while making that dinner instead of "some brilliant strategy".

So they can "fix HoP" - again, they won't, but they can - but there is no way anyone is half a brain progressing on this fight should do any boss but Hisek is first

So I guess that would make you a "half-retard" like the rest of the world?

[Sprucelee]

I come to this thread now just to read the walls of comedy from Skroesec. Keep it coming!

[Skroe]

I think someone's brain got cooked while making that dinner instead of "some brilliant strategy".



So I guess that would make you a "half-retard" like the rest of the world?

No. I called the Russians brilliant, not myself.

I just called the HoP-less manner possible if you think about what HoP is actually doing. When a few more guilds kill it, and if it has to be used, I'll happily share. People who think about the nitty gritty of the interactions of the fight through Skeer will figure it out pretty quickly.

And it would have, had we not switched. And from what I can see, it's being broadly adopted. So you enjoy an obsolete strat, for what it's worth. I'm just really glad some Russians invented a better way.

[anaxie]

No. I called the Russians brilliant, not myself.

I just called the HoP-less manner possible if you think about what HoP is actually doing. When a few more guilds kill it, and if it has to be used, I'll happily share. People who think about the nitty gritty of the interactions of the fight through Skeer will figure it out pretty quickly.

And it would have, had we not switched. And from what I can see, it's being broadly adopted. So you enjoy an obsolete strat, for what it's worth. I'm just really glad some Russians invented a better way.

Good luck being one of the first guilds to have to do 15/15H T16

Do you get bonus points for having to learn to rekill a boss with actual mechanics in play?

[Neldarie]

No. I called the Russians brilliant, not myself.

I just called the HoP-less manner possible if you think about what HoP is actually doing. When a few more guilds kill it, and if it has to be used, I'll happily share. People who think about the nitty gritty of the interactions of the fight through Skeer will figure it out pretty quickly.

And it would have, had we not switched. And from what I can see, it's being broadly adopted. So you enjoy an obsolete strat, for what it's worth. I'm just really glad some Russians invented a better way.

I know what you are saying. Thing is if the HoP thing ever got fixed things like DbtS+taunt crap wouldn't work either. And if you do plan to kite/taunt pingpong it, I'm just saying you gonna wipe before its time kill him.

[Skroe]

How is killing Skeer first shitty. Are you actually implying that AIM and RAPID FIRE is hard to soak/dodge. Do Tyranny players raid with their eyes closed?

Noooooo, but everything is relative isn't it? If you didn't have to deal with Rapid Fire, would you? Well let me ask a similar question: if you don't have to have 25 players deal with Dark Shaman's Toxic Stream, would do it anyway? Of course not, in both cases. You take the path of least resistance.

As I said, we were doing it just fine. But it's also stupid to do, particularly because of the Aim and Multi-shot. Rapid Fire isn't a huge deal.

Actually from the quote below it is fairly obvious dealing with Hisek was a monumental task for the group.

Nope, but think about why people die on this fight: it's NOT really mega-failure to one mechanic, it's getting picked off by cumulative sources of damage. For that, Hisek's Aim and more notably his Multishot are considerably dangerous in this regard. Rapid fire isn't that dangerous a mechanic, though doing it while Iyyokk is alive as a melee seems pretty awful. A good strat will reduce the sources of pressure on the raid. Removing Hisek from it clearly does that.

Tell me, do you ignore Arcweavers on Nazgrim too?

Tell me. Had the HoP strat not worked. You are telling me that you would reliably nuke each boss without the on the pull CDS before 3 blood casts. Pardon me while i fall out of my chair laughing

Who said anything about nuking each boss? You said that not me. You're assuming the strat doesn't already let bloods spawn purposefully already get bloods.

Oh dear you actually do believe you can.

I know we can because one solution is a modest extension of what we already do.

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Good luck being one of the first guilds to have to do 15/15H T16

Do you get bonus points for having to learn to rekill a boss with actual mechanics in play?

You tell me.

How's it feel to bet sandwiched between guilds using a superior strat? You know, theoretically, if they changed it, we'd have to make a modest adjustment that would take a couple hours. But that's theoretical. I don't have to deal with that right now. I almost certainly will never have to. And if I do, big deal, it's just another problem to be solved.

What you do have to deal with though my friend, is guilds ahead of you AND behind you - many behind you by the way that will make rapid strides the next few raids - have adopted a superior strat than the one you worked one, which will lead to both faster kills and faster kills. I really hope you can get a quick rekill next week, for your sake, my friend.

I'll take my theoretically worse position than the precarious one that actually exists for you in the reality we live.

And before this turns into something else, just remember, you threw the first punch. I haven't said a sly word against Incarnate up to this point. In fact, I even hope for your success.

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I know what you are saying. Thing is if the HoP thing ever got fixed things like DbtS+taunt crap wouldn't work either. And if you do plan to kite/taunt pingpong it, I'm just saying you gonna wipe before its time kill him.

That's actually not what I was thinking of at all. Interesting ideas though.

[anaxie]

Noooooo, but everything is relative isn't it? If you didn't have to deal with Rapid Fire, would you? Well let me ask a similar question: if you don't have to have 25 players deal with Dark Shaman's Toxic Stream, would do it anyway? Of course not, in both cases. You take the path of least resistance.

As I said, we were doing it just fine. But it's also stupid to do, particularly because of the Aim and Multi-shot. Rapid Fire isn't a huge deal.


Nope, but think about why people die on this fight: it's NOT really mega-failure to one mechanic, it's getting picked off by cumulative sources of damage. For that, Hisek's Aim and more notably his Multishot are considerably dangerous in this regard. Rapid fire isn't that dangerous a mechanic, though doing it while Iyyokk is alive as a melee seems pretty awful. A good strat will reduce the sources of pressure on the raid. Removing Hisek from it clearly does that.

Tell me, do you ignore Arcweavers on Nazgrim too?



Who said anything about nuking each boss? You said that not me. You're assuming the strat doesn't already let bloods spawn purposefully already get bloods.



I know we can because one solution is a modest extension of what we already do.

Yes it would have to be modest when the original encounter proved to much for your group. Oh and progressing my guild was fully aware of this joke worthy strat and opted not to use it. Why? Because the fight honestly is not terribly difficult.

So guilds that have killed Paragons will continue to use "obsolete" strats while you sit there so proud about the fact that you turned a trio council fight into a duo. Well played. Hopefully you find a strat to BoP Garrosh so he doesn't do transition phases. Then you can climb to 10 US!

[Skroe]

Yes it would have to be modest when the original encounter proved to much for your group. Oh and progressing my guild was fully aware of this joke worthy strat and opted not to use it. Why? Because the fight honestly is not terribly difficult.

Wow you're just really coming out wailing. What bug crawled up your ass, mate? I have nothing against your guild. I haven't said a word against it. You're just really coming out like a nasty 17 year old though. Take it down a notch, buddy.

So guilds that have killed Paragons will continue to use "obsolete" strats while you sit there so proud about the fact that you turned a trio council fight into a duo. Well played. Hopefully you find a strat to BoP Garrosh so he doesn't do transition phases. Then you can climb to 10 US!

I wasn't aware that we had two mobs up at one time. Silly me.

[Basmothh]

This is where you're wrong. It took about 20 minutes of cooking dinner, but I already figured a way to dealing with Skeer without HoP. He will still die way later in the fight, using only fight mechanics. The only way it wouldn't work is if they changed the design of the fight fundamentally. So either way, Hisek still dies first.

I'll come out and say it since I already pretty much directly implied it and there are lots of nuances to it we haven't discussed, yeah we did the HoP thing. But I want to put that in context: we did it after 2 raid nights of doing Skeer first and having quite a bit of success with that. But it was inconsistent. I know what a sustainable strat looks like. I've only been doing this non-stop since Tier 1. The "Skeer First" strat had red flags all over it.

You found it inconsistent because the fight's one of attrition. Using HoP allowed you to essentially bypass two major hurdles to the fight. I'm at least glad to see your narrative go from 'HoP doesn't really make the fight easier/trade-offs blah blah' to at least acknowledging how much easier using the HoP loophole made the fight.

Also, I'd congratulate you on killing the fight again without HoP, but why wouldn't you do that in the first place if it were so obvious? Using a loophole like HoP seems like a 'bad' solution considering that it revolves around a loophole which could have been hotfixed at any moment (like Iyyokuk's LoS issue). Regardless, do post a log and/or video if you do succeed in doing so, it'd at least be interesting to see.

Anyway, I'm not biased because my guild did Paragons the conventional way. I'm just not a fan of the HoP strategy simply because it involves using a loophole to circumvent multiple mechanics. That's not where I'd like to see raiding headed, whereby raids find ways and means to find every loophole on a boss to make things as easy as possible. It's one thing to be creative and smart with strategy, it's another to artificially trivialize encounters through unintended and illogical (read: lacking common sense) means.

Lastly, the issue of legitimacy doesn't only arise because it came from a Russian guild. It arose because of common sense that an ability like HoP shouldn't be able to nullify Bloodletting. Sure, people would probably have been more accepting if the top guilds used it, but truth be told, I would rather have seen them use the strategy, because it would probably make Blizzard a lot more inclined to fix it.

[anaxie]

Wow you're just really coming out wailing. What bug crawled up your ass, mate? I have nothing against your guild. I haven't said a word against it. You're just really coming out like a nasty 17 year old though. Take it down a notch, buddy.



I wasn't aware that we had two mobs up at one time. Silly me.

Well since you turned one into a glorified target dummy would you call it a trio?

[Skroe]

Anyway, I'm not biased because my guild did Paragons the conventional way. I'm just not a fan of the HoP strategy simply because it involves using a loophole to circumvent multiple mechanics. That's not where I'd like to see raiding headed, whereby raids find ways and means to find every possible loophole on a boss to make things as easy as possible. It's one thing to be creative and smart with strategy, it's another to artificially trivialize encounters through unintended means.

First, that boat sailed back in 2005 when people used the Ceiling in the tunnel to nearly zerothe fall damage from Gheddon. Hell, that boat sailed in video games in general years ago. Human beings will always look and take the path of least resistance. They SHOULD do that for things like this. You're chasing a unicorn.

Almost every boss this tier, not to mention last, or the one before it, has aspects that a single class ability or a single method simplifies dramatically. Lei Shen actually is the most prominent example. Very clearly, raids were supposed to cooldown their way through the Sparks that spawned in Phase 2. But instead the brilliant ring with 7 people + 2 grip strat emerged. And at the cost of a GCD and a little bit of risk (like a player standing too far out from melee), the raid negated the danger from the sparks entirely. They did one very moderate hit to 7 players individually, got gripped, got stunned and died in 2 GCDs. We call that... the strat... for that phase, that everyone did. Clearly "not intended" either, as AoE grip is available to one class and only one class in the game, and without two of them, you can't do it.

HoP is directly analogous to that. At the cost of a GCD and a little bit of risk (casting it before Bloodletting hits, again, like grip), the raid negated the danger from the bloods, which changed the direction of the fight.

It is the exact same thing. You needed at least two DKs to do Heroic Lei Shen, period. You need at least a couple of Paladins to do Paragons. One cast grip to deal with a fight's major mechanic. The other cast HoP.

How is it different? It doesn't make any sense. The only way you can legitimize HoP as somehow "cheese" or anything other than just a newer, alternative strat, is to say the same thing about using AoE grip on Lei Shen, which did the exact same thing. What was healing like during P2 of Lei Shen. Very moderate except on Tanks and between pillars. And how much worse would that have been if sparks had to be dealt with without two DKs? If they had been "flagged" as un grippable? It would have been intense. It would have changed the fight entirely. The bufferfly effect is identical in magnitude on Paragons.

It's the same standard that has to be applied. Either the LK strat which everyone did is illegitimate and this is, or both are legitimate. In fact, there is a no better comparison to this than gripping on Lei Shen. It is the same effect on the fight.

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Well since you turned one into a glorified target dummy would you call it a trio?

I wasn't aware the fight's mechanics turned off once you used HoP and I could play Pokemon X & Y mid pull since we had it after 90 seconds in. Sheesh, I did get a CT Scan on my head the other day. Maybe I should get another. I'm having black outs I think.

[D R E A D E D]

How is killing Skeer first shitty. Are you actually implying that AIM and RAPID FIRE is hard to soak/dodge. Do Tyranny players raid with their eyes closed?

Did you read the thread?

In case you didn't, it's about a handful of high-ranked players crying because we didn't leave Hisek, the HARDER BOSS (according to them!) up longer.

[Neldarie]

I'd say its more along the lines of Hand of Purity @ Heroic Council in ToT (in terms of similarity), but I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion when it comes to analogies.

[Zurick]

I'm just gonna pop my head in this thread and remind all of you this fight wasn't initially intended to be a fixed order. The shield to let you avoid Skeer's spawns in the fight is the initial design of this encounter with a little random boss order per week which worked sort of like Spirit Kings originally did or even Halfus.

Edit: On Heroic PTR testing of this encounter when the order wasn't fixed Korven spawned first in at least 1 of the variations.

[Skroe]

I'd say its more along the lines of Hand of Purity @ Heroic Council in ToT (in terms of similarity), but I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion when it comes to analogies.

I'm not familiar with that one. It escapes me at the moment. What happened?

[fjeenzy]

I'm tired of boping guys. Please fix so I can't bop anymore.

[Skroe]

Your reasoning is completely backwards. I'm done with this thread so I won't elaborate more. You mix up the premises and the conclusions.

The issue is not that an ability negates a mechanic entirely, the issue is that an ability negates a mechanic that is completely unrelated. Yeah, it deals damage and that's why it works, but it's not a damage dealing ability that spawns collateral adds, instead it is an add spawning ability that deals collateral damage. Pretending the opposite would be trolling or being oblivious on purpose.

But that's the thing. It's NOT unrelated. At all. Read the dungeon journal entry on Bloodletting

"Skeer swings his weapon in a mighty arc, inflicting Physical damage to the target and causing blood creatures to spawn around the room.Each blood moves to a Paragon and will heal that Paragon based on the remaining health of the blood."

Look at that. A cleary CAUSES B. The dungeon journal doesn't dance around it. It says CAUSES.

And the built in counter to the fight, along the lines of Strong Legs? Master of Amber.

" A player of the tank role can acquire this Paragon Power. When activated the caster Encases a friendly target in Amber for 5 sec. While the amber holds the target is immune to all damage."

It's clearly designed to negate the bloods from spawning. A tank picks this up. Why was it not flagged for a healer if it's designed to prevent damage? Because the tank is designed to use it on himself first, and then on a friendly target for Rikkal once skeer is dead. It's denying reality to state otherwise. HoP accomplishes the same thing on a limited basis, until you kill Korven. And then you can use the built in ability as it was intended to be used.

You declare the mechanic completely unrelated - that the add spawn is unrelated to the swing, and that the BoP illegitimately prevents the former while legitimately preventing the latter. That's absurd, because Blizzard clearly states otherwise in the ability's description, and then on top of that put in a tank ability that was designed to negate Blood Letting via the same method as HoP. The only way you can argue this now is if blizzard's written words and intentions differ. I have their words, and the existence and function of Master of Amber on my side, and a successful strat that in no way shape or form trivializes the fight. Makes it easier, but that's the point of any good strat, right?

What do you have? Besides an opinion, that is.

[Deleted]

Lots of different views and thoughts being tossed around in this thread, hopefully I can make a strong argument against using HoPs.

My guild do use HoP(well divine shield) for the very first spawn of bloodletting, so we can full out focus on Skeer directly from the start.

First of all, like many have said previously in this thread we have to understand that there is a clear line between "exploiting" and something being "not intended." It's also important to understand that just because HoP is a class ability does not justify it as being intended.

A clear example of the latter could be seen in T14 in ToES. Both Tsulong and Lei shi show's this. Let's start with Tsulong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jvCZFu_tIE This was caused by two abilties from a restoration shaman. Thier Ascendance and Ancestral guidance, in addition to this lots of pets played a big part of this. (For full description feel free to read the MMOC thread.)

The second example is Lei Shi. The ability called "get away" could 100% be nullified by using the hunter's ability "flare." This caused the ability to end without having to deal 4% of Lei Shi's health.
Most people agreed that both of these "glitches" was not intended, and so did blizzard. They both got fixed very shortly after becoming popular. Flare simply didn't have anything to do with "get away" and healing Tsulong for more then 100% of his max hp in 5 globals just wasn't right either, still though these were only normal class abilities.


Saying "the boss got killed a long while ago, it doesn't matter anymore" shouldn't be an argument either. The Amber Shaper "exploit" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1CFdHQVJ2c) that made you able to skip P2 and P3 got fixed after ~500 guild had killed it, and other exploits have been fixed after even longer time.

Now let's go to the argument of Bloodletting itself. The argument would look something like this:

Bloodletting deals Physical Damage
Bloodletting causes Bloods
HoP makes you imune to Physical Damage
-----------------------------------------
HoP makes you imune to Physical damage and Bloods.

This is in my opinion a very weak argument, and the only way to make it a "strong" argument would be to add that "Bloodletting's physical damage is linked to the spawning of bloods." I myself do not think this is clear in the description of the spell (The "and" seperates the two different meanings from eachother) and i certainly do not think blizzard had this in mind when making the spell. If this would have come up during PTR testing im 99% sure they would have fixed it instantly, and I have a hard time understanding why they wouldn't.

In the end it's up to blizzard to decide, but i do not think those arguing that using HoP is intended is doing it in a strong way. It's also very easy to disprove the arguments you put fourth for it. "A works then B should work!!" Isn't a strong argument in itself anyways. But to prove some points:

Controlling the Ball of lightnings is a core part of Lei Shen, this is why the adds are stunnable, slowable, grippale and such. It's also why the adds on Heroic Garrosh 2nd transition phase can be gripped and such. It's very good to bring a DK to the fight (might even argue that it's impossible without it for Lei Shen) But does not mean that it wasn't intended.

The Korven's Amber example can be explained by looking at the PTR progress. The spell was most likely design while the paragons still had a random spawning order. This would make the fight impossible to do if Strong Legs could not be acquired before Korven would spawn, which i highly doubt was the thought. In either case it's ALOT bigger chance that they thought about that while doing internal testing than HoPing the tank mid bloodletting cast.

The splitting of Dark Shamans could be done on PTR and was done, after the testing it was fixed so you had to use 3 tanks instead of only 2 for that. Blizzard clearly saw the design issue and fixed it in a way to please both parties. They could have made it so the bosses enrage if they're not close to eachother or such but instead they added an extra tank debuff that didn't exist before.

I don't care if people are using this or not for thier kills, it's pretty obvious that most guilds do everything they can to down a boss. Our hunter was up on every belt on siegecrafter and such, even though this probably wasn't intended. I do belive however that this should be fixed as it just doesn't fit, it does not make any sense at all.

What if Lei Shen's spawning Ball of Lightning ability was bound to a weapon attack that could be HoPable, or something even bigger that would make the fight 10x easier, wouldn't that get hotfixed? Even if it doesn't change the fight alot it still should be fixed as it's not the "right way" or shall i say the "intended way" to do the encounter. No matter how you look at it.

E: Damnit, Mionelol beat me to the Korven explanation, and also explained it abit better then myself!

[Angelicat]

How is this still going back and forth? None of you guys are developers and know what the intention was with the ability, stop stating your opinions (yes, opinions) as facts. It's definitely leaning more towards what Mione says because - hey, it's common sense. That doesn't mean what Skroesec says is far off base though, there have been stranger things in WoW history.

Either way there shouldn't even be a discussion here to begin with. I think it's stupid as hell that you guys are arguing semantics on what's an exploit and what's clever use of game mechanics when in the end it is Blizzard that decides that (usually swiftly with exploits in fact). If it's taken this long for them to correct it - or possibly not, I think you can safely say it's clever use of game mechanics and probably won't be "fixed" at this rate. Even dumber are the people coming in here and claiming you are doing an easier version of the fight and boo hoo, shame on you to do so. The countless examples listed in thread that could probably span pages worth of words have mostly been listed so I won't just repeat the same shit because it will just be ignored like all the previous posts since everyone here is trying to make a point and refuse to concede anything in front of OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE FROM PAST WOW FIGHTS, but if you guys are really so stuck up on this whole HoP thing and refuse to acknowledge it is in the same vein as every other clever use of game mechanics or unintended shit people do on the multitude of fights (especially since Blizzard agrees so far unless you are in denial and think they don't know this existed the very first time a guild killed it this way), god damn, what's a nice way to say this...

You guys are retarded.

Any guild that has killed a fight that has never been intended the way to be beaten (protip: that's every guild) are hypocrites if they ever mention a word about this, and you guys know it. Until Blizzard fixes this, all your points are moot, and it's merely clever use of game mechanics.

[Mirri]

So true angelicat. Blind hypocrisy from people who have exploited& been banned and cheesed their way through many fights in the past. So pathetic and dumb to see them come here and try to take moral high ground. As mione said, they are either trolling or being oblivious