Paragons of the Klaxxi Heroic 25

[Razecog]

While it may sound "gamebreaking" it's nothing really. In fact it sounds harder than doing it properly.

[Jetjaguar]

In fact it sounds harder than doing it properly.

Maybe to a novice

[srm02]

While it may sound "gamebreaking" it's nothing really. In fact it sounds harder than doing it properly.

In which case I beg to ask the question: why is it being used at all then? There is no need to class stack or have specific classes to defeat this on 25 heroic, a disc priest does make aim easier however is not needed if you properly rotate people rather than rely on the same. A core ability should not be removed from the fight like that whether it makes it easier or harder.

[Razecog]

In which case I beg to ask the question: why is it being used at all then?

Because it makes the fight easier in a way. I guess I don't really have any idea since I don't raid 25.

[Dawnrage]

Instead of the vague replies, how about you guys give something more concrete? If it's simply that hisek won't gib people with multi shot (though we never had this problem short of people messing up) or dealing with aim, then I guess go crazy? This has apparently been a thing for a while now and I don't exactly see paragon kills left and right in 25 man.

Or I guess you guys who have killed it could all just switch to doing this and have an easier time with the fight huh since this makes it a complete joke. Grats on 13/14H everyone!

[srm02]

I doubt everyone was aware of this when they started progressing. It doesn't mean you can ignore the other two mechanics, having hisek up late though (until 7th) is hard to manage with tank damage. It was mostly aimed at keeping it up until 4th.

[cFortyfive]

Instead of the vague replies, how about you guys give something more concrete? If it's simply that hisek won't gib people with multi shot (though we never had this problem short of people messing up) or dealing with aim, then I guess go crazy? This has apparently been a thing for a while now and I don't exactly see paragon kills left and right in 25 man.

Regardless if it actually makes the encounter way easier you might also want to consider that even nowadays not every last guild is perfectly comfortable with using every questionable advantage you can get.
Personally I think it sounds pretty decent for any 25 man guild without a good roster to handle the soaks so not sure if it is intended.

[Oxyra]

Sure what makes the fight hard is dealing with hisek until korven/iyyokuk and then dealing with iyyokuk until around kaztik but just imagine only having to deal with the active paragon and nothing more (skeer is standing still doing some tank damage and locust just whirls around and throws amber). It does make the fight significantly easier, I don't mind the amber shield preventing bloodletting but hop should not since reaching korven with skeer up is not an easy task (assuming no hop)

I feel like you don't understand this fight, because it doesn't make the fight any easier or harder, the tanks get hit for over 1M per hit from Skeer when he has high stacks.

That's why they get the stacking buff.

[srm02]

I feel like you don't understand this fight, because it doesn't make the fight any easier or harder, the tanks get hit for over 1M per hit from Skeer when he has high stacks.

That's why they get the stacking buff.

I am well aware of that, but that's not for long and obv a monk tank means you can stack mastery and forget about his damage. Most tanks can mitigate most of the time or call for a cd otherwise when no mitigation is up.

[Oxyra]

I am well aware of that, but that's not for long and obv a monk tank means you can stack mastery and forget about his damage. Most tanks can mitigate most of the time or call for a cd otherwise when no mitigation is up.

So what you're saying is, using class abilities to roll on a tank to do one mechanic (Which requires you to have one less DPS and one more tank anyway), causes another mechanic to be a problem, so you have to use class abilities on another tank to manage another mechanic to prevent tanks dying, and that when people get more gear, they're going to outgear the fight and the damage taken by the tanks will be less than it currently is.

Is that what you're saying? Because you seem awfully upset about this strat, are you from some guild that lost their ranking because you didn't use this strat?

[Mini]

This seems to fall in the same category as the Ambershaper Zerg strat. It's quirky and unintended, but executing it is still hard enough that it isn't trivial. And last time Blizzard chose to leave it alone. It's been going on for quite some time now, so hopefully they'll leave it alone. Changing the Blackfuse belts after many guilds killed it already was bad enough...

[Oxyra]

This seems to fall in the same category as the Ambershaper Zerg strat. It's quirky and unintended, but executing it is still hard enough that it isn't trivial. And last time Blizzard chose to leave it alone. It's been going on for quite some time now, so hopefully they'll leave it alone. Changing the Blackfuse belts after many guilds killed it already was bad enough...

It's unintended, but it's not an exploit, BoP has been preventing things since forever, and they made the stacking buffs make the other bosses get harder if you leave them up too long for this purpose.

As a general rule of thumb, if it uses class abilities, it's perfectly okay, I don't recall seeing threads bitching about rogues on Council of Elders, one of the hardest parts of that fight was Frostbite, the one you're supposed to stack to split damage on, on Heroic, it's absolute AIDS to deal with, except, you can smoke bomb the mob before it goes out and he doesn't cast it.

An exploit, is standing behind a pillar for fire lines so they don't do anything, that's an exploit.

[srm02]

The problem with smoke bomb was that it was discoverd too late, they fixed the hand of purity asap on council.

[Dracodraco]

I do still find it hilarious that people who haven't even tried the strategy think it makes it that much easier :P. A 1.5 sec cast with the 1.5 sec GBC rets/paladins have base means that you literally have to stand there waiting for a timer that's up to 30 seconds off, waiting for the bloodletting to happen. It's far more inconsistent than you'd think.
And as said, if people can keep skeer up till nr 7 that's pretty damn impressive of their tanks/healers. Maybe a monk can handle it more easily with full mastery build, but that means the strategy would be reliant on having two geared monk tanks and 3-4 paladins (you're rotating tanks every 30 sec on skeer due to the forbearance).
Either way, if it gets hotfixed it will, but having tried both methods as said, if I'd had ferals/rogues/double disc available I'd much rather have used the "keep hisek up"-tactic, and I think that when we're overgearing, we'll probably resort to that tactic anyway (as said - missing a single BOP is pretty frustrating, and it's not really something that gets more reliable over time).
SRM, it's fully doable to handle aim without a full group of rogues/ferals by rotating people yes, but it makes the fight exceedingly much harder to not have them. If you killed it by rotating warlocks/hunters/rogues and using one disc, then that's great, I guess. More power to you and your unknown guild =P. If you'd had more rogues/ferals aviable, would you not have stacked them to make the mechanic easier?

It also does seem kind of funny to me that this is being compared to the Ambershaper Burn. The burn was abusing a mechanical flaw to skip a phase in the fight - this uses a class ability to counter an ability in the fight. By the same logic, then:
Stampeding roar/windwalk totem are abused on Malkorok.
Single-tanking with stacked CD's/Monk tank/Protectors trinket are abused on Malkorok.
BOP/AM'ing thok's roars are abused to skip the silencing effect.
BOP is abused to skip the magnet storm damage on siegecrafter (usually when its laser+magnet and person has to go out of range).
off the top of my head . The issue might be BOP in general, I guess. Last tier you had far more examples (but that might be because it was around for longer - Smoke bomb council, grounding on durumu, grounding on lei shen, spell reflect lei shen, BOP all the tank debuffs, AMS the massive golem stacks, allll the portals).
But ah well =P. I have a clear concept of what I consider abuse of mechanics and clever use of mechanics. Basicly, if it can be done without any interference from any class ability, it's an abuse (LoS fiery edges). If it needs a class ability to counteract it, then it's clever use of mechanics.

[srm02]

You don't need hops after korven, you can use the amber shield on yourself. I guess it's down to Blizzard now if they want to fix it or not, only a small anount of guilds have killed it but I had to make it public so it might catch their attention.

[Dracodraco]

You don't need hops after korven, you can use the amber shield on yourself. I guess it's down to Blizzard now if they want to fix it or not, only a small anount of guilds have killed it but I had to make it public so it might catch their attention.

Puts even more stress on the tanks, though, considering the 1.5 sec cast time. Wasn't actually aware that korven amber could block it, though - had a suspicion, but always seemed like they had enough to deal with.
The issue in itself isn't the amount of BOP's though (leaving skeer up longer) - you can "easily" triage your way there till cooldowns on them gets refreshed etc.
The issue really is just the pure tank damage with +15 stacks on Skeer.

[Deleted]

I find your logic to be pretty thin logic there really, being as you then skip the random raid damage from Multi-Shot, Aim, and morons dying to Rapid Fire, as well as using 16 (worst cast) people who can soak the Aim for the first 3 minutes (4 groups of 4, rotating, with GI, external CD's, etc), vs watching for a cast and dealing with higher tank damage.

1.5 second cast time? Same cast time as stuff like the Shaman on Garrosh after an interupt. If raiders can't see that as a cast, then they don't belong at the 'top' level.

If you ask anyone who's killed it, except yourself as you are biased as this is how you killed it, which way they'd prefer, i'm sure they'd vote for 15 stacks on Skeer. Use your best tank for it. Think of all the cooldowns you can plough in to that tank that you aren't using on Aim!

You remove one of the bitches of the fight to keep up something that effectively just melees your tank, and requires a BoP on a cast. Don't try to make everyone believe that it's some hardcore super-hard thing to execute. Obviously you'd get defensive about the strat as you used it. You also never killed the boss using a different strat, so the logic that you use getting defensive towards others for saying it's 'easy' can equally be turned on yourself for not killing it without using BoP's.

That being said, Skeer didn't prove to be too much of a problem for us on the first kill. Hisek died 4th, and we simply rotated players with big cooldowns to soak Aim every time. WeakAuras and ensuring that the healers / 16 players had their CD's up on a consistent basis (Not 16 for us at least, used 2 rogues for every Aim, so that cut it down to 10 or so + Aim Soaker). It worked well. I guess it all depends on individual performances and who can be trusted to perform well. That being said, if we'd have known about this BoP Skeer thing, we'd have used it. As will, I'm sure, most 25man guilds now it's come to light, at least until the gear gets better. I hope it gets hotfixed personally. I don't blame any guild for using it - Klaxxi, as has been seen since the start, has been a mass encounter of untested bugs and stupidity.

I mean, noone remember the rogue vanish when a new boss spawns as you wipe, rogue mass res's the raid, and fight carries on? Now that was far more hilarious.

lol @ people saying it's not a significant change to the way the fight works. It drastically lowers the difficulty of the fight, the same way that the outrange mechanic on the Lucid drastically lowered the difficulty of the fight (which got fixed, btw). It also has nothing to do with shortening your berserk timer, btw. There are a couple of scenarios you can deal with when you can kill Hisek right away:

1) No Aim or Rapid fire, this one was super obvious
2) You have snipe debuff available for every single paragon
3) You can kill Lucid the second he comes down meaning the healing/raid CD requirement for the fight is significantly lower for fiery edges

You could do

Swarmpkeeper
Dissector
Prime
Lucid
Poisoned Mind
Bloodseeker
Manipulator
Windreaver
Locust

This amigo says it perfectly.

Especially the 15% damage thing.

On a last note, don't take it as a personal attack or feel the need to defend it. I'm sure <WHATEVER WERE AWESOME> and us (Not so serious, rip) also used mechanics on stuff like Siegecrafter with rogues that made it easier (And me with Alter Time on the belt, but that's another story entirely)

[Raiju]

Atleast from 10 man PoV, there are bugs that you can abuse for far more benefit in 10 man. Scorpion and completely avoiding all shield bashes/viscious assaults come to mind.

But yeah, the entire Paragons encounter is just filled with bugs.

I see what you (and others) did there.

[srm02]

I recall the rogue vanish bug, we had no idea why it happened and made our rogues just unstealth and die. Here's hoping they fix it, it's still not too late as many guilds have yet to progress this encounter. Unfortunately theres no point for me to post it on forums as I'm EU and we all know how much blizzard listens to them.

[Henesys]

On a last note, don't take it as a personal attack or feel the need to defend it. I'm sure <WHATEVER WERE AWESOME> and us (Not so serious, rip) also used mechanics on stuff like Siegecrafter with rogues that made it easier (And me with Alter Time on the belt, but that's another story entirely)

We never actually used the rogue / hunter bug on Siegecrafter, we did it the right way the entire time because we didn't know how it worked. Irrelevant to the topic though.