Paragons of the Klaxxi Heroic 25

[Deleted]

We never actually used the rogue / hunter bug on Siegecrafter, we did it the right way the entire time because we didn't know how it worked. Irrelevant to the topic though.

I stand corrected. Most did though, like us.

[Dracodraco]

I find your logic to be pretty thin logic there really, being as you then skip the random raid damage from Multi-Shot, Aim, and morons dying to Rapid Fire, as well as using 16 (worst cast) people who can soak the Aim for the first 3 minutes (4 groups of 4, rotating, with GI, external CD's, etc), vs watching for a cast and dealing with higher tank damage.

Hadn't considered letting people stack for soaking the aim as it seemed like it'd be way too much damage when we did it . The 70 or so attempts we did with AIM tactic we used a team of 5 as that was the max we could fit in without hitting other people with the splash. 4 People stacked together = 500K splash damage on each + the AIM dmg. Almost seems like it'd defeat the purpose :/.

1.5 second cast time? Same cast time as stuff like the Shaman on Garrosh after an interupt. If raiders can't see that as a cast, then they don't belong at the 'top' level.

I agree, but the difference here is that interrupts are off the GCD, BOP isn't, which is the "annoying" part. Get chaught during a GBC, feel free to wipe down.

If you ask anyone who's killed it, except yourself as you are biased as this is how you killed it, which way they'd prefer, i'm sure they'd vote for 15 stacks on Skeer. Use your best tank for it. Think of all the cooldowns you can plough in to that tank that you aren't using on Aim!

You need 2x tanks for skeer, not one <.<. Can't just let the "strong" tank take it.

You remove one of the bitches of the fight to keep up something that effectively just melees your tank, and requires a BoP on a cast. Don't try to make everyone believe that it's some hardcore super-hard thing to execute. Obviously you'd get defensive about the strat as you used it. You also never killed the boss using a different strat, so the logic that you use getting defensive towards others for saying it's 'easy' can equally be turned on yourself for not killing it without using BoP's.

Oh, I do agree with this. It's easier if your tank/healers can handle it, and the extra tank /downtime on paladins due to BOP's doesn't hurt DPS too much (probably about the same loss as dancing for rapid fire I guess).
I do disagree that it makes the fight ALOT easier, though. We both know that the hard part was never the first four.

That being said, Skeer didn't prove to be too much of a problem for us on the first kill. Hisek died 4th, and we simply rotated players with big cooldowns to soak Aim every time. WeakAuras and ensuring that the healers / 16 players had their CD's up on a consistent basis (Not 16 for us at least, used 2 rogues for every Aim, so that cut it down to 10 or so + Aim Soaker). It worked well. I guess it all depends on individual performances and who can be trusted to perform well. That being said, if we'd have known about this BoP Skeer thing, we'd have used it. As will, I'm sure, most 25man guilds now it's come to light, at least until the gear gets better. I hope it gets hotfixed personally. I don't blame any guild for using it - Klaxxi, as has been seen since the start, has been a mass encounter of untested bugs and stupidity.

I mean, noone remember the rogue vanish when a new boss spawns as you wipe, rogue mass res's the raid, and fight carries on? Now that was far more hilarious.

I don't really mind if they hotfix it, we'll be able to adjust in relatively short time - it just seemed more consistent with hisek dead when we had no super soaker group to get to xaril with everyone up =P.

This amigo says it perfectly.

Especially the 15% damage thing.

On a last note, don't take it as a personal attack or feel the need to defend it. I'm sure <WHATEVER WERE AWESOME> and us (Not so serious, rip) also used mechanics on stuff like Siegecrafter with rogues that made it easier (And me with Alter Time on the belt, but that's another story entirely)

Uh. The marked for death thing is... Not that big of a deal <.<. It's on a 2 min CD for 10 sec of 15% dmg taken. We usually get 2 uses extra of it (4 mins from hisek to skeer dies, so assuming hisek would die same time as skeer with the other tactic). That's... 8% uptime on 15% extra damage. It's something, sure, but skeer provides a raid CD that tops the entire raid instead, for example.

I'm not exactly taking it as a personal attack, but do remember that we actually did try the soak-aim tactic before this (and got to the point of wiping to the last 3 bosses with it) - meaning I can have a good idea of both. BOP's provided more consistency in getting to the later part of the fight, but by no means did it make the fight a walk in the park :/.
As a final note, all our observations might be skewered by the fact that we had a main tank quit after 2 nights of Paragon progress, being forced to use a Ilvl 550 blood DK as the "second maintank". It's possible handling skeer with 2x +570 tanks would have been far easier, but had to let our warrior MT on Rikkal to block injections (and such can't tank skeer), meaning Skeer is always dealt with by 2x offspecs =P.

[Deleted]

Blood DK on that fight? Yeah, I can see why you'd use BoP.

[Dracodraco]

Blood DK on that fight? Yeah, I can see why you'd use BoP.

Let's say it like this - our tank that quit was a blood DK. Our go-to offspec tank is a blood DK. That leaves eddy all alone with all the shields =P.
But hey, 2 dks worked well on Animus <___<.

[Cyberowl]

Though the hard part never was the first four bosses, it shortened the progress time by a quite big amount (morons not dieing to Rapid Fire, people learning when to use their CDs for Aim, random deaths due to mutates/parasites + multishot). There is a reason you changed after 70 wipes to the Skeer tactic >.>

[Dracodraco]

Though the hard part never was the first four bosses, it shortened the progress time by a quite big amount (morons not dieing to Rapid Fire, people learning when to use their CDs for Aim, random deaths due to mutates/parasites + multishot). There is a reason you changed after 70 wipes to the Skeer tactic >.>

Honestly? We changed because our remaining main tank had kidney stones the evening we heard about it <.<. Left us with 3x offspecs and an evening of not getting shit all progress done if we were to attempt the "normal" tactic, as tanks would just get blown up. It proved to give us more consistency, so I guess it's true that it made progress time shorter.

On that note btw, has anyone figured out how the fuck to avoid skeer pulling in DPS/healers on pull and gibbing them, and the general gibbiness of all paragons before they even become targetable when they spawn?

[Frozendekay]

On that note btw, has anyone figured out how the fuck to avoid skeer pulling in DPS/healers on pull and gibbing them, and the general gibbiness of all paragons before they even become targetable when they spawn?

Need to have them pretargeted and spam taunt. Xaril is targetable shortly before he hits the ground, iyyokuk isn't and just requires people to not be standing where he lands. Skeer on pull, I just taunt when he's in the air and noone has ever died to that.

On topic: I hope this gets hotfixed tbh. It toes the line between clever use of game mechanics and exploit, and I lean further towards exploit. It straight up removes all the mechanics of one of the Paragons - Skeer has nothing else besides bloods. It definitely makes the fight considerably easier when you can kill Iyyokuk right as he comes down/be able to guarantee no BR's used when you get to Xaril.

[Cyberowl]

Honestly? We changed because our remaining main tank had kidney stones the evening we heard about it <.<. Left us with 3x offspecs and an evening of not getting shit all progress done if we were to attempt the "normal" tactic, as tanks would just get blown up. It proved to give us more consistency, so I guess it's true that it made progress time shorter.

On that note btw, has anyone figured out how the fuck to avoid skeer pulling in DPS/healers on pull and gibbing them, and the general gibbiness of all paragons before they even become targetable when they spawn?

He pulls targets that are the highest on aggro, just like he pulls back the tank...being the DPS with the hardest opener I aggro'd many times and I had to get 2 no aggro hands chained to solve the problem...

[Deleted]

No. The fight is hard as a whole. If it was simply bloodletting and hisek (P.S. these are both fairly simple imo compared to some other portions of the fight) which made the fight hard people would be past these guys far sooner.

erm, having skeer with no bloods and locust up effectively means you're fighting against 1 boss at a time. I'm glad we killed it before this tactic became known to us. :|

[Deleted]

On that note btw, has anyone figured out how the fuck to avoid skeer pulling in DPS/healers on pull and gibbing them, and the general gibbiness of all paragons before they even become targetable when they spawn?

As a tank, just attack the paragons before they attack anyone else?
I made target macros for every paragon I am supposed to pick up so I aggro them in the air before they can attack anyone.

[veiledy0]

Glad you're a fan of enraged revolution tbh.

[Arhippa]

On that note btw, has anyone figured out how the fuck to avoid skeer pulling in DPS/healers on pull and gibbing them, and the general gibbiness of all paragons before they even become targetable when they spawn?

I'm pretty sure we've only had that happen a few times out of about 200 pulls by now and all we're doing (to my knowledge) is me MDing Skeer to the tank while he's jumping down and the tank taunting & dpsing it. Meanwhile almost everyone else is burning Rik'kal for several globals before switching to Skeer meaning there's pretty much just dots rolling on it.

[srm02]

Glad you're a fan of enraged revolution tbh.

I was a big fan of watching ER streams, but then you guys stopped streaming after a day on paragons progression

Let me say that even though we killed this boss a few times getting to xaril with all CRs intact is a big deal. Out of all our attempts I can safely say that Hisek definitely eats up the most which slowly wipes the raid then or you lack a crucial CR on a person. Having everything available still is very huge for ths figt at that point, I can't stress this enough on how many random deaths occur before then.

On that note the snipe cd is 1 min and not 2.

[Dracodraco]

As a tank, just attack the paragons before they attack anyone else?
I made target macros for every paragon I am supposed to pick up so I aggro them in the air before they can attack anyone.

I'm pretty sure we've only had that happen a few times out of about 200 pulls by now and all we're doing (to my knowledge) is me MDing Skeer to the tank while he's jumping down and the tank taunting & dpsing it. Meanwhile almost everyone else is burning Rik'kal for several globals before switching to Skeer meaning there's pretty much just dots rolling on it.

Odd :s. We quite consitently lose people to the paragons not being attack-able when they spawn. Mostly healers/boomkins <.<. Was guessing starfall/healing aggro was hammering them tbh.

I was a big fan of watching ER streams, but then you guys stopped streaming after a day on paragons progression

Let me say that even though we killed this boss a few times getting to xaril with all CRs intact is a big deal. Out of all our attempts I can safely say that Hisek definitely eats up the most which slowly wipes the raid then or you lack a crucial CR on a person. Having everything available still is very huge for ths figt at that point, I can't stress this enough on how many random deaths occur before then.

On that note the snipe cd is 1 min and not 2.

if it is then fair enough, I don't get to use it. I just found the marked for death ability in our logs - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=10384&e=10961 . Tooltip said 2 min, used 5 times in a 9:37 wipe, seemed like 2 mins was correct :/.

[Deleted]

Odd :s. We quite consitently lose people to the paragons not being attack-able when they spawn. Mostly healers/boomkins <.<. Was guessing starfall/healing aggro was hammering them tbh.

We had that issue aswell. Our boomkin was a fairly common target aswell as the odd healer. As a tank I simply realised "Hey, I am not aggroing the bosses as fast as I could be". A simple target macro with a ranged ability for every boss that spawns + mashing it when it is about to spawn was sufficient to completely eliminate all deaths that happened in this way.

It is completely normal for having deaths in this way, but your tanks should really have woken up and realised that they can fix the problem. There is no excuse for the tanks letting the bosses kill someone after having had 50+ pulls on a boss.

[srm02]

Hmm I was certain it was one min, oh well I stand corrected then.

[Arhippa]

Hmm I was certain it was one min, oh well I stand corrected then.

http://i.imgur.com/rGeilOV.png

5 seconds left on the debuff, 54 seconds on the cooldown. It most definitely is 1min CD.

[Dracodraco]

http://i.imgur.com/rGeilOV.png

5 seconds left on the debuff, 54 seconds on the cooldown. It most definitely is 1min CD.

Probably WOL/wowhead tooltip being wrong then, wouldn't be the first time. Now I need to yell at our mage to use it more often .

[Paarthurnax]

Here's our video of using the tactic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sevzvf8Q0V4


For those of you moaning that it makes the fight a ton easier etc - here's the deal: It doesn't. It shifts the difficulty around, and dependant on the strength of your raid, that might make the fight easier. You are basicly trading off having your rogues/ferals/disc priests handle AIM every 45 seconds and the raid "dancing", for extreme tank damage, tank switches and CD/Bop rotations. But as a whole? Lyokuk, Xaril and Locust is still by far the most challenging combo (and then the triage to survive loykuk/manipulator with everything basicly spent). How you deal with the first 4 are barely going to break anything when it's not even the hard part .
We opted to kill off skeer as nr 4 as you can see (I've heard of guilds leaving him for 7, which seems absolutely fucking nuts to me - as daught noted, he's doing high tank damage off the bat. It's not uncommon for our tanks to get smashed around by 1.3M hits towards the end of his burn. Basicly need a constant hand of sac rotation etc).

Meanwhile, bloodletting is cast at any point after 30 seconds - the timer is wildly inconsistent. We have had it delay for up to 20 seconds, and up to 5 seconds before the timer you get with Bigwigs shows it as about to be "cast". It is a 1.5 sec cast, which means that along with the fact that the timer is useless, it is extremely hard and annoying to catch, and one slip-up of basicly 7-8 BOP's means a wipe or spending another 30 seconds on the fight (inching closer to enrage).
This makes it quite inconsistent and very infuriating for a long while, untill the paladins gets the hang of it (prepping korven/locust for the burn? How about having ambers come in and heal them both 35%!)

So honestly? If people think this makes the fight a shitton easier, feel free. Go and do it, see how much easier it is. If we'd had access to a group of super soakers (rogues, feral druids) or 2 disc priests, then I'd much have prefered leaving Hisek up <___< (hint hint - apply now, garrosh progress ftw!).

Do note that we aren't hiding anything. You're free to dig up our logs and check the incomming tank damage and the amount of wipes due to tank deaths or bloods going through =P.

I'll second this.

[srm02]

I'll second this.

Sorry but you just proved my point, you guys gained 20 ranks whereas other guilds are stuck. I reassure you if it hadn't been for HoP you'd be still on Paragons. The only guild I can see with a vid on wowprogress recently is darkstorm, I look forward to the other videos (i realise not all are added to wowprogress and some of them are of course without circumventing a core mechanic).

I mean no personal attack towards your guild, just illustrating how guilds should definitely use this for a fast paragons kill. Lets look at flawless on this boss since world 32 on siegecrafter and they just got the kill a day ago and now suddenly guilds (tyranny as well) hopping 20 ranks? In any case I look forward to finding those videos, I really dont see how you can compare the original paragons with a disabled skeer as it is definitely easier.

Of course guilds using hop will defend themselves, but that's just how it is. Wanna bet how many of those hop paragon guilds extend garrosh? As it may be fixed next week or even this week (probably not though)