Paragons of the Klaxxi Heroic 25

[Skroe]

Just wait and see when nothing is changed (If they later decide to change it fuck my life.)

I actually just thought of a way to do it without HoP. It's more complicated and requires a bit higher DPS, but has the same effect. After all, all you have to actually do, is kill Korven and get his buff. That's not too long. So basically this entire buthurt cryfest by srm02 amounts to zilch any which way you cut it, unless the fight is entirely redesigned.

[Basmothh]

This is nothing like Primordius. That was simply not doing any fight mechanics. This just changes the strat to deal with different mechanics - all the mechanics are still there and dealt with (indeed, isn't it Korven's buff that is used by the skeer tank post-Korven? Thus it is being used the way it was clearly designed?). Nothin cheesy about it. I'd actually say intended. Cheesy is the old Shaman AG Tsulong thing. Cheesy is the 10m Dark Animus zerg strat. Cheesy was Nourshen when 5.4 hit.

There is absolutely nothing cheesy about this. And 70 pulls is nothing on the boss by the way. That's like 2 days.

For all intents and purposes, killing any boss is now a time investment. Bypassing certain mechanics means that you spend less time on early wipes, and certainly gives you a lot more attempts to learn the latter half of the fight.

Ultimately, what you did allowed you to progress much faster on the boss than you otherwise would have. Why else would you have gone with this strat then? Pretending that you didn't gain an advantage from not doing this fight as intended is facetious.

[NeverStop]

Blizz doesn't like exploits. This is gonna get fixed and the guilds that exploited will get 3 day ban + loot / achievement removed. Cheaters can't hide from daddy Blizzard.

[Wycked]

Well first, I'm not going to discuss what strat we did, because frankly, I rather enjoy the nice tall and high wall behind us and I don't want to help the competition. I'm keenly aware of the nuances and specifics of both strats, however. We've kept our logs for Paragons and Garrosh attempts private, as is standard for those two fights in many guilds. Promethian, last I checked, didn't post their kill or logs for Paragons (I could be out of date on this). Garrosh logs are surprisingly hard to come by, especially if you want to see something different. Believe me, I've been looking.

We're keeping them private because the difficulty in the encounter lies in it's very many nuances, not the base form of the mechanics. We discovered some pretty great solutions to these nuances in obscure but very successful guilds logs that you won't find unless you know where to look for them. We have every intent to keep them close to the vest. We're not even going to put out or video for Paragons until Garrosh is dead.

If you think difficulty in the fight lies in dealing with the first three, you're mistaken about the structure of the fight. I made that mistake actually. I got my guilds hopes up for a kill a bit earlier than I should have, because I underestimated the last half of the fight. I said we were "close" probably two nights early early. I glossed over the difficulties of the later part of the fight. Big mistake. If you ask me, the last half of the fight, post Xaril, is much harder than the first. Kaztik and getting picked off by various things absolutely sucks. As I said a few posts ago, we wiped post-enrage with 7% left on our last mob repeatedly, only to kill it with 15s+ left on enrage, simply because we had no one get picked off. That has nothing to do with bloods.

We're not making our logs public because we don't want people to know what we're doing in the fight or what days we're raiding as we finish of the tier. We actually did a Monday raid this week (very, very rare for us), and made the very informed decision (based on our guild's gear level compared to other guilds) to raid extended on Tuesday. We really wanted that US 12th kill that Supermassive got. 13th is pretty good too. But we're on course for our best finish to a tier ever, and we want to make use of every advantage we got.

As far as this strat goes though, it would be cheesy if like, Skeer's ability to cast Bloodletting was actually prevented by like, putting him slighting into some wall or room decoration, he he couldn't get LoS on the tank or something. Casting a hand of protection to prevent physical damage of a specific hit has been used on many fights going back years. It moves the goal posts, to say that somehow, this one should be different. The ability specifically says "Physical damage", just like "Strong Legs" for the Encase in Amber, Korven's buff was clearly specifically designed to counter Bloodletting. Clearly a fight with 3 bosses is designed to have them killed, in some way, in any order. There hasn't been a council fight ever, where there was an actual impossible order... just less and more difficult. Until you get the Korven buff, the only way to prevent blood spawn is to not get hit by the Bloodletting via HoP or DS. Without that, there is no way to do heroic without killing skeer first. That's ridiculous. It would also be a first.

That is why I think the premise of the argument is wrong. Bloodletting says "Physical" very clearly. Korven's buff is designed to prevent bloodletting. Skeer spawns before Korven in a specific fixed order. I think this was intended as the way to do it if you want to kill Skeer later, which is incidentally the only way to kill Skeer later. I think the premise that somehow, some "flag" got looked over is absurd, because of the manner of Korven's buff and the wordering/workings of Bloodletting. And you still have to deal with every single mob and their abilities. It doesn't somehow remove Skeer from the raid. You still have to deal with him. Hell, look at the Russian video's tank on grid. He's getting destroyed and uses Korven's buff in this narrow window. It's perfectly legitimate, and not cheesy at all. It just changed the problem.

I really just think everyone looked at the "standard" strat that the World Top 10 did, assumed it was the only way, and got caught by surprise by a nuance they didn't appreciate but was exploited by obscure but successful guilds.

Also this is a fight where, if you look at logs, guilds put in 24-35 attempts per night depending on their stage of progression. Only 70 at your riad means you're probably 3 weeks out on the boss. Maybe 4. And that goes for any strat, by the way.

Congratulations, you cheesy little bastards found a "creative use of game mechanics" Stole 13th from us by a couple hours and upped yourselves to the front page. While the lowest spots are yours to claim, It'll take more than a cheesy strat you ripped of a Chinese guild to get ahead of us and the other 5 or so guilds you jumped on garrosh despite the simplicity of the boss. Enjoy your progress spike and the inevitable fall back to mediocrity.

Don't pat yourselves on the back for your ingenuity using a strat you stole, don't hide your logs thinking anything you do matters, and don't think for a second your rank is going anywhere but down on hellscream.

[DetectiveJohnKimble]

For all intents and purposes, killing any boss is now a time investment. Bypassing certain mechanics means that you spend less time on early wipes, and certainly gives you a lot more attempts to learn the latter half of the fight.

Ultimately, what you did allowed you to progress much faster on the boss than you otherwise would have. Why else would you have gone with this strat then? Pretending that you didn't gain an advantage from not doing this fight as intended is facetious.

It's amusing to see someone talk about what is and isn't "cheesy" such that the exploit at issue, which he used conveniently used, falls under the category being A-OK. Then again, people have to do what they gotta do.

[crooklyn]

Congratulations, you cheesy little bastards found a "creative use of game mechanics" Stole 13th from us by a couple hours and upped yourselves to the front page. While the lowest spots are yours to claim, It'll take more than a cheesy strat you ripped of a Chinese guild to get ahead of us and the other 5 or so guilds you jumped on garrosh despite the simplicity of the boss. Enjoy your progress spike and the inevitable fall back to mediocrity.

Don't pat yourselves on the back for your ingenuity using a strat you stole, don't hide your logs thinking anything you do matters, and don't think for a second your rank is going anywhere but down on hellscream.

lmfao this is the best post in this thread



holla

[Gliff]

Congratulations, you cheesy little bastards found a "creative use of game mechanics" Stole 13th from us by a couple hours and upped yourselves to the front page. While the lowest spots are yours to claim, It'll take more than a cheesy strat you ripped of a Chinese guild to get ahead of us and the other 5 or so guilds you jumped on garrosh despite the simplicity of the boss. Enjoy your progress spike and the inevitable fall back to mediocrity.

Don't pat yourselves on the back for your ingenuity using a strat you stole, don't hide your logs thinking anything you do matters, and don't think for a second your rank is going anywhere but down on hellscream.

That was a little extreme...

[Skroe]

For all intents and purposes, killing a boss now is a time investment. Bypassing certain mechanics means that you spend less time on early wipes, and certainly gives you a lot more attempts to learn the latter half of the fight.

No. That's wrong. You see, your statement is true if there is all upside and no downside. If there was all gain and no cost. That makes sense for primordius and Week 1 Heroic Nourshen. All you had to do after all, is just get the boss to 0 before Frenzy. If the Frenzy timer is long enough, there is no downside to ignoring every mechanic on a fight like this.

This is different. The offset of this is a much more complicated tanking and healing job, because by the time you get around to killing him (Russian video had Skeer die after Xaril i think? Or Kaztik?) The Skeer is hitting the tank for almost his life. He has over 100% buffed damage, and is already a hard hitting mob.

The upside is reduced fight complexity by not having Iyyokk / Xaril / Kaztik overlap. The downside is tanking becomes much more complicated, the tank has to do something pretty interesting (catch a short cast with an ability from a boss on a CD), and he has to survive swings of over a million damage every two seconds. That sounds... entirely reasonable. That sounds like trading one set of problems for another set, which is essentially the difference between any two strats for the same fight.

Ultimately, what you did allowed you to progress much faster on the boss than you otherwise would have. Why else would you have gone with this strat then?

We didn't use this strat necessarily. I do the strats for our guild with several other people. So we're very well informed on all strats. And We also put in Monday + Raid Extended Tuesday and killed it Wednesday. We put in about the number of attempts the fight is expected to take. We just made a decision to rank scale owing to the fact we're ahead or identical on gear to all our peers ranked guilds.

[srm02]

I actually just thought of a way to do it without HoP. It's more complicated and requires a bit higher DPS, but has the same effect. After all, all you have to actually do, is kill Korven and get his buff. That's not too long. So basically this entire buthurt cryfest by srm02 amounts to zilch any which way you cut it, unless the fight is entirely redesigned.

I already mentioned several times that I have no issues with Korvens amber preventing Bloodletting, getting there is harder than you think as you have to deal with Bloods constantly and when you get there you kill off Skeer after Korven or you keep him up and have him hit your tank for loads.

[Skroe]

Congratulations, you cheesy little bastards found a "creative use of game mechanics" Stole 13th from us by a couple hours and upped yourselves to the front page. While the lowest spots are yours to claim, It'll take more than a cheesy strat you ripped of a Chinese guild to get ahead of us and the other 5 or so guilds you jumped on garrosh despite the simplicity of the boss. Enjoy your progress spike and the inevitable fall back to mediocrity.

Don't pat yourselves on the back for your ingenuity using a strat you stole, don't hide your logs thinking anything you do matters, and don't think for a second your rank is going anywhere but down on hellscream.

Oh my, I hope you didn't pop a blood vessel.

First, I'm afraid you're mistaken friend. We didn't get any strat from any Chinese guild. Not this time. I mean, we have before, and it's paid off immensely. And German guilds usually do incredibly creative stuff. But no, not this time.

It's funny this thread exists. Yesterday, before this thread was created, I was talking to a guildly about how hilariously lazy many guilds are. I wonder how many guild forums in their strat section have videos from just Blood Legion, Method and one other. How conventional. How lazy. How boring. How one dimentional. You look at one video, assume it's done some way, and think it's the only way. I'll tell you what I do. I look at the usual suspects that everyone else does. Then I have a set of guilds I look at, always better progressed than us who do really out of the box stuff. And I watch carefully and read their logs. I try to be challenged, and break expectations. I get happy when I see some guild do something Method doesn't because it makes me think about the fight and mechanic from a new angle.

This entire thing is being sore about looking at one way of killing it and not stopping for a second and asking the obvious question "can this be the only way?". Like almost any fights, the WoW Raiding community got a minority report in the form of this strat. You just didn't think to ask for a copy of it. Big mistake. Now you're losing a "mediocre" 4 day a week guild. As a 5 day a week? Ouch.

So instead of being a poor and classless loser about losing a spot fair and square, you should take a hard look friend at how you approached Paragons. Furthermore I'd love to hear how you, maybe us, and every guild that killed Paragons up to this point using the "standard" strat didn't "steal" it from Method or whoever created it. Unless you're world first, are you not informing your strat by what those who went before you have done in general?

Nice talkin to ya.

- - - Updated - - -

I already mentioned several times that I have no issues with Korvens amber preventing Bloodletting, getting there is harder than you think as you have to deal with Bloods constantly and when you get there you kill off Skeer after Korven or you keep him up and have him hit your tank for loads.

I couldn't give two shits and a flying fuck what issues you have with any strat on anything in general. You got something to say, sign your name to it, mister "I created an account to start a thread and rant about a strat on a fight my guild probably can't beat for 7 pages".

[CausalXXLinkXx]

i'm really disappointed with you jacedk

Don't hate Brooklyn

[crooklyn]

Don't hate Brooklyn

it's not what you think it is

but i am very disappointed with you rn

[Skroe]

Don't hate Brooklyn

Hey this is a stretch, but any chance a guy who used to be in HiJ in TBC... had a warlock named Varnick (I think that was his alt when he played in HiJ during Sunwell)... still play? He was from Iowa or Idaho. He was an old buddy. I think he used to play a Priest in HiJ. If I knew the name i'd recognize it. ><

[srm02]

Theres no need to for personal attacks, my only intent was to discuss the nature of a specific strategy I believe should be fixed and pointing how guilds were killing it at an insane speed in relation to Siegecrafter with no intention of attacking said guilds. It does seem you're not taking it too well.

[Skroe]

Theres no need to for personal attacks, my only intent was to discuss the nature of a specific strategy I believe should be fixed and pointing how guilds were killing it at an insane speed in relation to Siegecrafter with no intention of attacking said guilds. It does seem you're not taking it too well.

I'm taking it just fine. I just think if you have an opinion, you should have the integrity to sign your name to it. It's not a personal attack to call an anonymous person without a call back number out for what they are. I would take your opinion more seriously if you were 14/14H. I would take it less seriously if I found you were in a 12/14 or less guild and just trying to throw the proverbial bannana peel for all guilds ahead of you.

My interest is mostly academic and based on the fact we killed the fight recently. If there was one way to do every encounter - if there is no surprises to how something is able to be done, after what Method and BL do - this game suddenly becomes a hell of a lot less interesting for me personally. I raid because I miss the team atmosphere of team sports that I'm too old for now, and because I love problem solving, and WoW raids have some of the most interesting problems in gaming. That's also incidentally what I do for a career (Computer Science), so when I see different solutions to problems, I get excited. I know plenty of WoW players are pathological 20 somethings with borderline personalities who do terrible things to each other, but that's not who is in my guild and I interact with every day, and that's not why I play.

I think the attack on this strat is two things: first it's dishonest, and second an attack on diversity in raiding. The former, it's transparent guilds want to try to fuck one and other, and this is just more cover for that. That's not surprising. We were getting chain reported at the start of this tier, and I ended up writing a computer program to chain report the culprit guild (a successful program by the way, computers have infinite stamina and can do it 24 hours a day). The second, if there is one way to do everything, then this game and the progression meta game, really is just a time sink, with the occasional "maybe you do a fight in 180 attempts when the other guild takes 210". If that's the case, the meta-game has no point. In that case, the only thing that matters is gear collection.

On that note, Tyranny mumble will be holding a drinking game next weekend. Take 3 shots every time someone asks about the next Legendary at a Q&A. Everyone is invited. Prepare to get sloshed.

[Angelicat]

Congratulations, you cheesy little bastards found a "creative use of game mechanics" Stole 13th from us by a couple hours and upped yourselves to the front page. While the lowest spots are yours to claim, It'll take more than a cheesy strat you ripped of a Chinese guild to get ahead of us and the other 5 or so guilds you jumped on garrosh despite the simplicity of the boss. Enjoy your progress spike and the inevitable fall back to mediocrity.

Don't pat yourselves on the back for your ingenuity using a strat you stole, don't hide your logs thinking anything you do matters, and don't think for a second your rank is going anywhere but down on hellscream.

L O L, someone sounds mad

[Skroe]

L O L, someone sounds mad

I, like, wanna print it out and frame it. It's a work of art.

Edit: I was bored so....

[Gliff]

I, like, wanna print it out and frame it. It's a work of art.

Edit: I was bored so....

Dude...... You have way too much time on your hands.

[Skroe]

You're missing not having Hisek (ie at least half of the deaths on most attempts, and nearly all of the possible deaths leading to Poisoned Mind), having a better paragon power DPS-wise (Skeer's paragon power is completely useless for all intents and purposes).

And again, not having Hisek makes the whole first part of the fight completely trivial. I looked at our logs, and the number of deaths by Hisek is astronomically high compared to any other Paragon, the fight is nearly over once he's dead, all you have to do is to BL and kill Poisoned Mind then you're done. If your entire raid is up by this point you cannot really wipe anymore, the fight is mostly over - the only real difficulty is getting to that point while still having the raid alive.

Honestly, I thought of, just while discussing this strat in the thread, two entirely different ways not utilizing HoP that still kills Hisek first or second and still gets Korven down. It requires substantially more complicated sequences of events, but it accomplishes the exact same thing. Hisek is still getting leaving the fight early. The "problem" if you want to clal it that actually isn't the HoP. That's just a bridge to killing Korven

The case you're making is that to do the strat "properly", Skeer has to die first, thus forcing Hisek up way longer. That's an extremely questionable arguing position on a fight with 3 separate mobs all of which conceivably could die first (indeed, you could kill Rikkal before Hisek and there is a guild that does this). Whoever thought of this strat first wisely asked "Skeer must die first? Says who? We have three options and Hisek is the most dangerous. How do we get him out of the fight fastest"?. They were right to look for any and every way to kill Hisek first. Even if this were to be changed (and it won't be, you can take that to the bank), I'd still ask the same question.

That is entirely the right question to ask. I guarantee you, if like Midwinter or Envy discovered this strat, and not some obscure but genius Russian guild, this would be "the way" to do it and this thread would not exist, just as the "second generation" Siegecrafter strat that keeps the boss mostly stationary gets one Drill rocket at the very end, completely supplanted the earlier Method strat that moved the boss around the room. I very strongly feel this is folks looking at a limited number of sources, throwing in a hundred plus attempts, and then being surprised that there was a way around their problems.

Also your memory and my memory of paragons "being over" is a little different. No offense, but I think you're selling it a bit short.

- - - Updated - - -

Dude...... You have way too much time on your hands.

Well, I do dress up as a Warlock and shoot fire at orcs 16 hours a week.

[Stryk]

Go to sleep dude.