November 4 - Even More LFR Nerfs

[Ragashii]

And dungeons were meant to be a challenge on a smaller scale, yet with LFD it never can be. And before you go on with "you've got challenge modes", yes fine, challenge modes, they were great to run once for cosmetic rewards, but it's more of a race than actually running a fun challenging dungeon with friends, and it's not even something that is an option when you've leveled up an alt to gear up.

Dungeons weren't meant to be carried by a complete minority of the people in the group, yet here we are, the exact same problem.

It'd be so nice if challenge modes could become an endgame model for people who like 5 mans. Tough as hell content on par with raids with decent rewards. Don't get me wrong challenge modes were fun the first time but speed running them isn't that fun. LFD can be super easy still and they could release dungeons with each new tier. You'd scale up a little more each time but it would still be hard to do the new challenge modes.

I don't see why Blizzard hasn't learned it's lesson about trying to force mechanics on random people. LFR groups don't rise to the challenge of a boss, if they did they'd be doing flex or normal. People just leave and it's such a bitter and frustrating experience.

[Zantos]

Remove Gear from LFR, than problem should be fixed. Good players know where to get the best loot.

No one would even run then...

[Glorious Leader]

Remove Gear from LFR,

In other words remove lfr let's be honest about that though.

[Deleted]

Really they were? That's news to me. Where did you read this? I'd love to see some documentation on that.

Just have a look at what dungeons were like throughout vanilla and BC, then look at what dungeons became with LFD in Wrath, then have another look at what Blizzard tried to do with them at the release of Cataclysm, and notice what they became shortly after. Clearly the intention of them is to have some form of challenge, but due to the nature of LFD this is impossible because you can't expect a random created group to actually work together, or perform to any form of level at all.

Once again it's not the exact same problem as the numbers change the matter and success in lfd groups far more realistic. This is not the only reason why lfr/lfd are different beasts entirely and why the comparison is hardly relevant however.

It's entirely relevant because a minority is carrying the majority, which was the entire issue to begin with.

I mean pvp is also done through match making. Where's does your brilliant analysis fill in there?

PvP is a completely different matter entirely, because the challenge is based on the skill of the opposing player. In PvE Blizzard has had to nerf the content in order for them to succeed, in PvP it's impossible to do so since they can't really "nerf" player's skill, also it's Player vs Player and both sides wants to win, so it would be a lose/lose situation for Blizzard to interfere to begin with. Thus, your comparison is completely illogical.

[Glorious Leader]

Just have a look at what dungeons were like throughout vanilla and BC, then look at what dungeons became with LFD in Wrath, then have another look at what Blizzard tried to do with them at the release of Cataclysm, and notice what they became shortly after. Clearly the intention of them is to have some form of challenge, but due to the nature of LFD this is impossible because you can't expect a random created group to actually work together, or perform to any form of level at all.



It's entirely relevant because a minority is carrying the majority, which was the entire issue to begin with.



PvP is a completely different matter entirely, because the challenge is based on the skill of the opposing player. In PvE Blizzard has had to nerf the content in order for them to succeed, in PvP it's impossible to do so since they can't really "nerf" player's skill, also it's Player vs Player and both sides wants to win, so it would be a lose/lose situation for Blizzard to interfere to begin with. Thus, your comparison is completely illogical.

Sorry that's not proof any design intent on the part of the developers. That's speculation you've made pulled out of your ass. I could also say it was the flying sphagetti monster that made it easy. It's not clear that the intention was ever supposed to be challenging content, if it was they would have kept it as such. Now they have made the case that match making sufffers from complexity issues yes but they completely and utterly ignore that when it comes to pvp which is in many respects far more complicated. It doesn't mean that dungeons were ever designed to be "challenging" content because such a distinction is entirely relative. Challenging content you is piss easy for everybody else and piss easy for you is challenging for everybody else. Challenging does not necessarily equal complex although certainly the challenge of raids these days is complexity. I imagine that you'd find heroic era tbc dungeons quite fucking easy and they were even at the time. They were long and strung out and took forever to complete but they were pretty face roll.

25 people =/= 5 people so the standard for evaluation is different and it's subsequently why the comparison you made is bat shit stupid.

Ironically you call my comparison completely illogical and yet you choose to ignore the ridiculous absurdity that is comparing lfd to lfr.

[Deleted]

Sorry that's not proof any design intent on the part of the developers. That's speculation you've made pulled out of your ass. I could also say it was the flying sphagetti monster that made it easy. It's not clear that the intention was ever supposed to be challenging content, if it was they would have kept it as such. Now they have made the case that match making sufffers from complexity issues yes but they completely and utterly ignore that when it comes to pvp. It doesn't mean that dungeons were ever designed to be "challenging" content because such a distinction is entirely relative. Challenging content you is piss easy for everybody else and piss easy for you is challenging for everybody else.

If you want a direct quote from a blue poster, sorry there probably is no such thing aside from comments from Ghostcrawler confirming that it is indeed impossible to keep content which you sign up for via dungeon finder or similar difficult, it's the same reason heroic scenarios still requires premade groups (even though they aren't even difficult to begin with), as well as Challenge Modes. If it was indeed as you seem to believe, that they simply preferred the content to be easier all of a sudden and it not having anything to do with dungeon finder, then why can't you sign up for random Challenge Mode, hm?

25 people =/= 5 people so the standard for evaluation is different and it's subsequently why the comparison you made is bat shit stupid.

Again, the issue at hand was that a minority carried a majority, this happens in both 5 and 25, thus it's the exact same issue, but considering I've had to repeat this argument to you several times now, and you seem to be stuck with your fingers in your ears in "lala" land, I'll simply stop responding to you entirely from here on out.

Ironically you call my comparison completely illogical and yet you choose to ignore the ridiculous absurdity that is comparing lfd to lfr.

If you took those fingers out of your ears and actually opened your eyes you would see just how similar the two of them actually are. Nevertheless, have a good day.

[Glorious Leader]

If you want a direct quote from a blue poster, sorry there probably is no such thing aside from comments from Ghostcrawler confirming that it is indeed impossible to keep content which you sign up for via dungeon finder or similar difficult, it's the same reason heroic scenarios still requires premade groups (even though they aren't even difficult to begin with), as well as Challenge Modes. If it was indeed as you seem to believe, that they simply preferred the content to be easier all of a sudden and it not having anything to do with dungeon finder, then why can't you sign up for random Challenge Mode, hm?





Again, the issue at hand was that a minority carried a majority, this happens in both 5 and 25, thus it's the exact same issue, but considering I've had to repeat this argument to you several times now, and you seem to be stuck with your fingers in your ears in "lala" land, I'll simply stop responding to you entirely from here on out.




If you took those fingers out of your ears and actually opened your eyes you would see just how similar the two of them actually are. Nevertheless, have a good day.

A minority is different from a lone individual. If you can get that through your skull then we might have some proper discussion going on here. A lone individual can virtually guarantee the success of an lfd run and even in tbc heroics people were getting carried. A lone individual cannot impact lfr to the same degree.

[Deleted]

I wonder if LFR is 5 mannable yet.

[Ohforfsake]

Flex does require people to follow all the mechanics, and to play their class fairly well. This is a real raider requirements right there. How many real raiders are among the playerbase? So, i've cleared garrosh normal and chewing at heroics at this point, and i wonder why, despite of that, I still totally understand what a casual player base is, and what it's capable of? Guess what. If you arent a real raider, you are going to do 50-80k dps with timeless gear and you'd get kicked from any flex. LFR is the only option left. And honeslty, some fights DPS and TTL requirements are a bit too much. Nazgrim is a good example, hes got way too much HP, and if people follow strategy, ie dont dps on def stance and focus adds he is gonna ENRAGE, seen that countless times.

Same with tanks. Do you seriously think a casual player with 496 ilvl and 500k hp is going to tank Garrosh? Or Jugg? Or shamans? Heck, any boss i'd say. He'd get his face smashed in, not only that, people (healers usually) would b*tch and whine and quit if they get a tank like that. Then the tank himself would get frustrated and quit, and maybe never come back as tank again. Last time on garrosh we had a drama like that because the tank was 508ilvl only. People have started whining even before we started pulling trash and the group slowly fell apart. Well, i dont know maybe raise entry ilvl cap to 520, or something. So people would try and get at least a ToT weapon and most of the slots with burden timeless, then it MIGHT work as it is. But with 496 there must be nerfs. And mark my word, more nerfs are coming after this.

As about alts - i play some of them on a dead-hour, GL finding a flex grp in that time. I've got 10 alts, some of them do run flex, some only do LFR, there is a place for both.

[Coldhearth]

Honestly, who cares about Looking For Retard nerfs? It's meant to be quick and easy anyway. Watered down content for bad players.

It affects nothing as far as real progression/gameplay is concerned.

If you're seeking a challenge, then LFR is not meant for you anyway.

Again, who cares?

[Snorkles]

The majority of people don't use external sites to learn their rotation, optimal stats or dungeon tactics. Nor should they have to. As a result, most people are sub-par.

At what point in game does it say - Oh by the way, you're X class in Y spec, you need to gear for Z secondary stat, oh and don't forget to get hit/expertise capped if you're melee, oh and, remember to download reforgelite otherwise you'll be messing around with sub-optimal reforges.

Blizzard either need to simplify their Class mechanics/stat mechanics, keep it as is but make it more obvious how they all tie together or nerf content targeted towards average Joe until completion rates are at an acceptable level.

They've obviously gone for the latter.

[KBWarriors]

@Raelbo

Your entire response basically just said that players shouldn't have to work to achieve a common goal or potential loot. I am so tired of that "the intended audience of LFR doesn't want to try, participate or get better at their class."

THEN WHY DO THEY DESERVE LOOT!? $15 a month entitles you to access to the game, that's it. Furthermore, how is that "casual content for all" method working out for them? Unless they straighten their crap up, WoW will be down to 4-5 million people by halfway through the next expansion in my opinion.

Stop the blatant hand holding and stop nerfing things just because people are lazy. Honestly, who would want to tank LFR? There's no punishment for people who refuse to raid or play the game.

Then, you have the argument that people only have 1-2 hours a week to spend on a video game from some people. Out of curiosity, if someone is that pressed for time and has that little time to themselves as freetime, why in the world do they play? There are far better things to do with only 1 hour of free time if that's all you truly have.

Also, did you honestly just tell me that an MMO isn't built off of grinding and team work? Honestly, how did people ever survive before World of Warcraft? Vanilla required an immense amount of effort and time to complete anything but MMOs before that took a long ass time to get anything done, and yet people still did it. Now days, the more entitled people are becoming, the more Blizzard makes the game "anti-play" friendly, people complain more.

In my opinion, take this game back to BC, tell the casuals tough shit if they don't want to properly learn their class and mechanics and let it be done. I'm calling their bluff on the "oh I would leave if LFR wasn't in this game." Please prove it.. and round up and play another MMO.

I wonder if LFR is 5 mannable yet.

We had a group do Immerseus on LFR when it was new in a group of 6 players from 40% to dead.

[Kaleredar]

Flex does require people to follow all the mechanics, and to play their class fairly well. This is a real raider requirements right there. How many real raiders are among the playerbase? So, i've cleared garrosh normal and chewing at heroics at this point, and i wonder why, despite of that, I still totally understand what a casual player base is, and what it's capable of? Guess what. If you arent a real raider, you are going to do 50-80k dps with timeless gear and you'd get kicked from any flex. LFR is the only option left. And honeslty, some fights DPS and TTL requirements are a bit too much. Nazgrim is a good example, hes got way too much HP, and if people follow strategy, ie dont dps on def stance and focus adds he is gonna ENRAGE, seen that countless times.

Same with tanks. Do you seriously think a casual player with 496 ilvl and 500k hp is going to tank Garrosh? Or Jugg? Or shamans? Heck, any boss i'd say. He'd get his face smashed in, not only that, people (healers usually) would b*tch and whine and quit if they get a tank like that. Then the tank himself would get frustrated and quit, and maybe never come back as tank again. Last time on garrosh we had a drama like that because the tank was 508ilvl only. People have started whining even before we started pulling trash and the group slowly fell apart. Well, i dont know maybe raise entry ilvl cap to 520, or something. So people would try and get at least a ToT weapon and most of the slots with burden timeless, then it MIGHT work as it is. But with 496 there must be nerfs. And mark my word, more nerfs are coming after this.

As about alts - i play some of them on a dead-hour, GL finding a flex grp in that time. I've got 10 alts, some of them do run flex, some only do LFR, there is a place for both.

Follow mechanics? Maybe. Groups I'm in will certainly kick players that repeatedly mess up the same mechanic time and time again (if I have something to say about it.) But the notion that LFR requires players to play their class well? Certainly not. Most players seem to sit in the 60-70k DPS range. That is NOT "playing your class well" at that gear level.

Frankly, I don't really think LFR needed any nerfs. All of the bosses are completely doable.

[Deleted]

Honestly, this kind of statement is neither helpful nor worthwhile.

I am not going to argue about whether the nerfs should be there or not, but the argument that people are only doing LFR for the loot is the intellectual equivalent of pulling <50K dps in LFR.
The purpose of LFR is for people to have fun while doing something. Loot is a secondary objective. Yes I realise there are some people who only do LFR for the loot only, and otherwise wouldn't be there, but that is their problem.

If they just want to take a sightseeing tour of the bosses and artwork while bashing on a training dummy with no mechanics, why not just wait a few months for the next expansion patch and see it then? I think most people are doing it for the loot, or they would just complete it once and be done with it. And they wouldn't be nearly as frustrated about wipes and queue times.

[Bigbamboozal]

If you don't do LFR why do you give a toss? And if you do LFR and it's 'too easy' cuz you're a pro, shuddup and go hard modes toughguy.
Is this thread designed to be a way to discount others fun in favor of making yourself look better?

Let me ask you this:

does getting better = finding a way past language barriers?

Can't tell you how many times an US and Brazilian server were merged for LFR and shit happened for 2 hours.
In light of that, jog on.

[Bodom]

Spent 4 hours last night in p2 of LFR, hitting multiple stacks of determination on every single boss and of course the obligatory 30-45 min wait for a tank and "I got tank offspecc". My terrible warrior was of course top 5 on every single fight only outdpsed by people 30 ilvls above me (with legendary cloaks), healers complaining about going OOM (while doing half or 1/3 of the hps I can manage on my two priests) and of course lots of raging and caps lock "L2P FUKIN KIDS".

Nerfs were needed. Flex feels easier than LFR because of higher ilvl requirements compared to hp and damage, while people in LFR are sometimes as bad geared as my warrior. Sure, I can play all classes to 80-90% of their potential (as dps), but other people just can't do that.

Did I mention I also spent 3 hours in p1? Killing the last boss with 4 determination?

If oqueue groups didn't always have stupid ilvl requirements you can only obtain by getting warforged items off Ordos I'd stick to flex...

[Trakanonn]

It helps your alts, I see no problem.. its LFR who cares. If people are spending their night wiping on LFR, they'll be that much more likely to unsub. No way Im spending my night to try to finish just 1 LFR, that doesnt sound fun and Id log out/quit WoW.

Oh wait, I already quit WoW.

But still.

[Xaxxor]

I don't give a flying f... about the boss nerfs tbh.
But they really should nerf the 2+ hour queues....

[Deleted]

I'm not complaining about this at all. These "nerfs" will hopefully make it less frustrating to run the LFR.

Fact is that many people are there in ungemmed and unenchanted Timeless gear combined with pvp items and almost always ignore mechanics.

I run the LFR version of SoO for my alts for some gear upgrades like trinkets and Tier pieces and many groups are having trouble downing bosses withouth multiple stacks of Determination because of this.

All I can say is I am so happy that the LFR is not my main gameplay experience, but I am still thankfull I can run it with my alts.

[ComputerNerd]

I feel that this player is quote-worthy. He's from a top raiding guild on Stormrage and is talking on behalf of one of his alts and LFR:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/10462986205#8

And it is those who have no need for LFR who are the least capable of giving any useful opinions on the matter as demonstrated very well here.
The reason that LFR exists is entirely due to the traditional raiding community, the same people that endlessly whine about it.
Ironic that those being most vocal in their complaints are the cause.

LFR will continue to exist even with Flex because Flex still has the organisational requirement, one which is being made stricter than ever.