6.0 Mage Speculation & Paranoia

[Mastamage]

Heh, I had forgotten about that GC tweet. The current design will be hard to get away from but it could be done over time. Anything drastic might turn people away come WoD.

Certainly for us, addressing the 90 talents would be a start to the buff upkeep.

[mrgreenthump]

Anything drastic might turn people away come WoD.

We have 3 specs working pretty much the same atm.. It's pretty safe to change 1 and see what happens.

Also if you do nothing, what would make all the Mages that quit in MoP come back? New and shiny always gets attention.

[Mastamage]

We have 3 specs working pretty much the same atm.. It's pretty safe to change 1 and see what happens.

Also if you do nothing, what would make all the Mages that quit in MoP come back? New and shiny always gets attention.

No doubt they'll change some things but what I was eluding to was making drastic changes right out of the gate and dicking with too many abilities at once. I'm confident they'll do enough to make it feel different than it is now.

[mrgreenthump]

No doubt they'll change some things but what I was eluding to was making drastic changes right out of the gate and dicking with too many abilities at once. I'm confident they'll do enough to make it feel different than it is now.

They sort of need to be drastic with Fire. The crit to proc system clearly doesn't work the way Blizzard wants it to work, and just reducing the gap between Fireball and Pyro now, would bland the spec even more.

[Methusula]

I'd love to see Living Bomb as Fire only and Arcane and Frost given something that functions similarly. Make Living Bomb duration extendable when you refresh it before it explodes. Every time you extend Living Bomb before it explodes, the Powe of the explosion is increased. You can choose based on encounter mechanics or procs/buffs when to let it blow up. It would be only applicable to a single target, but the explosion could hit everything within 10 yards for half the main target's explosion damage.

For Arcane, every time you use Arcane Missiles, a stack of Nether Tempest is added to that target. Then either Barrage or a new spell could be used to trigger the Tempest to pulse damage to all nearby enemies for x seconds. Single/main target Tempests could add stacks of Arcane Charge so that clearing stacks with Barrage/new spell would mean far less ramp up time once you have a Tempest going.

Frost could use Frostfire Bolt (no longer a proc but cast time with short CD) to build up a Frostfire Bomb whose explosion can be triggered on demand for a single explosion of Frostfire damage to all nearby enemies.

[Mastamage]

They sort of need to be drastic with Fire. The crit to proc system clearly doesn't work the way Blizzard wants it to work, and just reducing the gap between Fireball and Pyro now, would bland the spec even more.

I could see Fire getting the most work bc, let's face it, they can't ever get it right. Buffs followed by nerfs. It's hard for them to balance it. I'm just wondering if taking the RNG out of the spec would turn people away...Lots of people love that aspect of the spec. But, then again, many others hate it.

[Deleted]

Anything drastic might turn people away come WoD.

This is said often, but the best statistics that would answer if this is true is the warlocks. How many veteran warlocks quit in MoP quickly after launch and how many new warlocks came, are these new players or old warlocks that came back? One thing is for sure warlock population has increased, WoD might nerf warlocks heavily though because they will loose some toolkit and blizzard want to stop the dps on the move for ranged. So that last stage of statistic isn't present yet. I think that warlocks can proof that big revamp can have a positive effect.Hell it's even shown with mages, the biggest positive about icicle players mentioned was that it was new!!! The community is ready for change.

It's ironic although it's less frequent now i still see players complain about they miss spel x. I am completly diffrent on that, I don't mind loosing spells, what i found worse was loosing class identity with what i can actually do. Spells don't define my class for me (except blink!!!!) but what I can do is. It's ironic the bigest identity loss i had was from ability tweaks or other classes gaining abilities.

Even a tweak to the warlock fear spell gave this loss for me during Cataclysm. Before that mages were known to be the best dungeon CCers, mainly because of the convenience sheep brought. But in cata fear became superior in everyway, not only that they also had banish and seduce making warlocks completly dominate us. But shamans became better than mages as well, although this was partly because of the elemental theme which is perfectly acceptable..

[mrgreenthump]

I'm just wondering if taking the RNG out of the spec would turn people away...Lots of people love that aspect of the spec. But, then again, many others hate it.

At least the people I have talked with seem to like the "heat" idea more than "crit to proc" or "on chance to proc". Now all I really want is to have fun again in the game, so I do sort of abstain myself from taking sides. But I have seen some really cool ideas for Heat. The coolest so far being heat levels and them affecting your spells differently, so you would want to switch spells based on heat.

[Obelisk Kai]

Problem with this argument is that almost every other spec in the game has the exact same priorities, just with different abilities.

We have 3 specs working pretty much the same atm.. It's pretty safe to change 1 and see what happens.

Also if you do nothing, what would make all the Mages that quit in MoP come back? New and shiny always gets attention.

No doubt they'll change some things but what I was eluding to was making drastic changes right out of the gate and dicking with too many abilities at once. I'm confident they'll do enough to make it feel different than it is now.

Okies, cards on the table. Does anyone here REALLY think that if Blizzard had their time again they'd build the classes the exact same way? Of course they wouldn't. Hell I reckon or two classes wouldn't have made it off the drawing board had they known then everything they know now. Yet we are the inheritors of the legacy of the judgement calls they made all those years again. For sure, had they the benefit of hindsight then they would probably have made whole new mistakes.

However. Just because we are the inheritors of that legacy does not mean we are to be forever bound by it.

Now, I stated that all Mage specs play more or less the same with the same core rotation. I say this a lot, its one of my biggest complaints about the mage class.

Mastamage responded that every other spec in the game has the exact same priorities, just with different abilities. I sort of agree, but I sort of disagree.

How I agree: It is clear from perusing other class guides that the very basic core of dps is to use a filler and trigger a proc, mixing in cooldowns how and when they are appropriate. EVERY single dps class in the game does that. That's fine. That cannot be avoided. With our game, there is no other way this can be done.

How I disagree: The problem with the Mage is that all three of our specs use the exact same mechanics. This is the greatest sin of MoP as regards Mages, our class homogenization was complete.

How was this achieved? It was because of Fire. The Fire Mage has one of the most fun and interesting rotations around. You cast a filler nuke, fireball. When you get a crit, you cast inferno blast WHICH ALWAYS crits. This creates a hot streak proc, an instant cast pyroblast which explodes in your opponent's face. All the while, you keep up living bomb, an exceptionally powerful dot. The Fire Mage is themed around passive dots, Ignite as the mastery, Pyroblast applying a powerful dot whenever it hits the target, timing the right combustion, ensuring living bomb is kept up. No matter how fire is redesigned in the coming expansion, that glorious rotation has to be maintained because it is just so much damn fun.

The problem is that the Fire model was so succesful it was replicated to our other two specs. And I have to ask. Why?

An entire tier given over to casting and maintaining a bomb spell, something previously unique to fire. Why was this a good idea? It worked for fire because fire deals with dots, most of them passive, but that's the deal. That's the theme. Suddenly we have a bomb tier. Everyone has to pick a bomb, even Arcane and Frost. Everyone has to maintain the bomb, even Arcane and Frost. Suddenly a mechanic that made sense with Fire has now been replicated across all three mage specs. Every Mage guide now says 1. Apply the damn bomb.


Then, they weren't satisfied in taking one of Fire's signature rotational abilities and spreading it around. They took something that worked only as an Arcane Mage, mana management tied to damage output, and spread it around too via our level 90 talents.

So the level 75 and the level 90 talents are the harbingers of utimate class homogenization, locking everyone into the same five basic steps

All specs apply the bomb.
All specs keep the bomb up.
All specs keep your level 90 buffs up.
All specs nuke till proc.
All specs use proc.

This. Was. A. Mistake.

I believe it is time Blizzard acknowledges that they made a mistake with Mists of Pandaria. I know I've said it before. I know I'll keep saying it, but there is no point in having three specs that are copies of each other save the colour of their main nuke. Each spec needs a hook to attract people, something that says 'if you like this mechanic, this is why you should play me'. For Pures this sort of distinction is triply important. All we can do is deal damage. So it follows that our damage specs should be as varied as they can be simply for sheer variety. I mean ask Rogues and Hunters, classes in the same boat as us that Blizzard says they are going to do a pass on to improve their relative distinction from each other.

Take a look at Warlocks. They have three specs. And they have hooks. Pets. Dots. Direct Damage.

What about us.

Why, when Rogues are Hunters were mentioned in that tweet, why were we not included? I mean you can ask any of us and the majority will say our specs are too similar. So why doesn't Blizzard include us in that tweet.

Because ironically, we have the foundations for spec distinctiveness but Blizzard has never explored them, or built upon them. Fire is fine I believe, both thematically and playstyle wise. But Arcane has it's mana management game, and Frost has it's pet.

Let me expound further.

There are nine caster specs in the game. Excluding the three Mage specs they are as follows

Balance Druid: Has the unique eclipse mechanic, whereby continually using arcane spells will eventually result in a buff to your nature damage spells and vice versa. The Balance Druid also maintains two dots on the target. Occasionally uses, either by insta-cast proc or a cooldown running out, a spell that feeds into their unique resource system. The proc, admittedly, is based on a tick of the dots.

Elemental Shaman: Apply a dot. Cast a filler. Build a stacking buff, that when it hits x amount will allow a pretty strong cast of a spell. Uses a stronger spell on cooldown OR when it procs. Also pops a totem that deals damage to the target. Filler Nuke provides mobility.

Shadow Priest: Use a channeled filler. Cast a nuke to gain orbs. Maintain two dots. When three orbs gained, cast strong dot. Use execute spell below a certain percentage of health.


And our fellow pure.

Affliction: Maintain THREE dots. Keep a powerful debuff active as long as possible. Use a channeled nuke as a filler. Switch to a different channeled nuke as an execute filler.
Demonology: Keep up a single dot. Use a powerful aoe spell at the right moment to keep up ANOTHER dot. Generate stacks of a buff but ensure to cast the spell that buff affects before it caps. Use a nuke as a filler. Also uses the demonic fury resource system, revolving around whether or not to use their metamorphosis ability.
Destruction: Unique burning embers resource system. Keep a dot up. Cast a filler. Use a nuke. Oh, and use your secondary resource to either cast certain spells or power up others.

So as you can see, every class faces the same dilemma. Something to maintain, something to fill time with, something special to press at just right the moment.

The problem is that they way Mages do it is the same across all three specs. Where are our interesting rotations? Why couldn't we have a spec that was similar to boomkins with alternating fillers? Why can't frost have a secondary resource that selectively empowers certain spells. Why is the template for Arcane and Frost the only other Mage spec when Blizzard have shown, if they put their mind to it, they can be very creative.

A lot of Warlocks weren't happy with their overhaul but the Warlocks I speak to who stuck with it are very, very pleased with the result.

I'm not asking for an overhaul. But I am asking for some distinctiveness between my three specs. And looking at all the other casters specs, Blizzard COULD do it if they wanted to. And they should want to.

[Frost1129]

I could see Fire getting the most work bc, let's face it, they can't ever get it right. Buffs followed by nerfs. It's hard for them to balance it. I'm just wondering if taking the RNG out of the spec would turn people away...Lots of people love that aspect of the spec. But, then again, many others hate it.

They haven't gotten fire right since WoTLK when they added hot streak and instant pyros. I remember GC tweeting that they didn't have a problem with the reliance on crit. So I doubt much will change beyond trying to remove the crit gate that we saw in ToT and at the same time bringing down the top end so it doesn't get too far ahead.

[Pyromelter]

At least the people I have talked with seem to like the "heat" idea more than "crit to proc" or "on chance to proc". Now all I really want is to have fun again in the game, so I do sort of abstain myself from taking sides. But I have seen some really cool ideas for Heat. The coolest so far being heat levels and them affecting your spells differently, so you would want to switch spells based on heat.

I'm on the way opposite side of that fence.

In fact, I continually wonder why the mage community doesn't stand up and advocate for a return of wrath-era mechanics with a few of the new abilities sprinkled in. Why use heat when we have mana? I always felt that when mana was a limited resource, it showed the skill of the mage (as well as when we had less movement dps abilities).

Also, many other "chance to proc" things in this game are just simply flat percentages. I also don't quite understand why we don't just say "fireball has a 40% chance to proc hot streak" and leave it at that. Seems to work well for death knights, rogues, warlocks... even arcane and frost mage. Pretty much every other spec that has a flat % to proc, it feels pretty cool.

Did anyone not have fun playing mage during wrath and cata? I'm just wondering why we aren't advocating for a return to mechanics that were fun, skillful, effective, and refined.

[mrgreenthump]

I'm on the way opposite side of that fence.

In fact, I continually wonder why the mage community doesn't stand up and advocate for a return of wrath-era mechanics with a few of the new abilities sprinkled in. Why use heat when we have mana? I always felt that when mana was a limited resource, it showed the skill of the mage (as well as when we had less movement dps abilities).

Also, many other "chance to proc" things in this game are just simply flat percentages. I also don't quite understand why we don't just say "fireball has a 40% chance to proc hot streak" and leave it at that. Seems to work well for death knights, rogues, warlocks... even arcane and frost mage. Pretty much every other spec that has a flat % to proc, it feels pretty cool.

Did anyone not have fun playing mage during wrath and cata? I'm just wondering why we aren't advocating for a return to mechanics that were fun, skillful, effective, and refined.

Am just saying.. It would be good for a Pure dps to have a non-RNG based spec. RNG is good and keeps it fresh, but yeah. Atm it's the same for almost every spec in the game. Dps based on procs rather than decisions. Sure Arcane has a bit of decision making in it, but I want a spec that makes you think and change spells based on what is going on. But 1 can only dream.

[Erolian]

Why do we still have to use addons to track our ignite value as fire when its so important to the spec because of combustion???? Something to track it should have went live with Cataclysm release and here we are about to go into WoD without one. It would be like a balance druid not having an eclipse bar. I'm not sure I've ever seen a blue post hinting at it.

[Gaman]

Why do we still have to use addons to track our ignite value as fire when its so important to the spec because of combustion???? Something to track it should have went live with Cataclysm release and here we are about to go into WoD without one. It would be like a balance druid not having an eclipse bar. I'm not sure I've ever seen a blue post hinting at it.

Actually a really good point, never thought of it myself. In cata, when the addons was not so good as today (trying to calculate damage from LB/Ignite/Pyro), I used 3 diffrent ones to track ignite, when all was high, my combustion was fucking sexy. Now I only need one, since its 100% shows the correct value since its just Ignite it is tracking. Should definetly have been a blizzard standard tracker aswell (We have the orignial ignite debuff on target, you can see it if you hover over it, tho not very practical)

Would personally use an addon anyway but they should definetly add one for new players to the game. And as you say, kinda wierd they have not added one already.

Am just saying.. It would be good for a Pure dps to have a non-RNG based spec. RNG is good and keeps it fresh, but yeah. Atm it's the same for almost every spec in the game. Dps based on procs rather than decisions. Sure Arcane has a bit of decision making in it, but I want a spec that makes you think and change spells based on what is going on. But 1 can only dream.

Agreed. Arcane should be that non RNG spec. Fire should remain somewhat RNG(How it is now is perfect imo) and Frost, I dont know, dont really play it so dont have any thoughts on whats good and whats bad about it atm.

[Drknife]

Rework/remove lvl 90 talents and I will proudly play a mage again.

[mrgreenthump]

Fire should remain somewhat RNG(How it is now is perfect imo)

Fire is far far far away from being perfect. I actually view it as a failure in MoP really. It's just somehow really dreary, you always do the same thing.. Just Fireball till crit and rest people probably already know. And with crit rates being high 70s, it comes really repetive really quickly. I mean some might like that, but at least for me it was a battle to keep awake during farm nights.

[Polarthief]

Also if you do nothing, what would make all the Mages that quit in MoP come back?

I think the bigger concern would be the plummet of Mages come WoD if nothing changes. We're already becoming one of the lesser played classes at max level (though also because Warlock is just Mage+ atm)

Rework/remove lvl 90 talents and I will proudly play a mage again.

Rework = Lolno. Scrap this garbage already. Might as well scrap Mage.
Remove = Mage becomes tolerable.
Remove 90 + 75 = Mage becomes decent.
Remove 90 + 75 and make the specs less boring/homogenized = Mage becomes an actual class again.

Fire should remain somewhat RNG(How it is now is perfect imo)

Except Fire is actually the worst spec of the 3 right now. MoP's rollercoaster of nerfs to it is proof enough of how broken it is with the scaling, and the rotation itself is dreadfully boring. The only redeeming/fun factor is the amount of instants/how much mobility you have because Scorchlol. When you actually break it down though, Arcane and Frost are miles ahead in that regard to overall design (though they still fail in many ways).

[Akraen]

I think Frost's design is actually quite good now. I hope it sees less changes than the other two specs. Mana Adept needs a big change, fire needs a revamp all-together with the new stat system.

Frost is good though, very stable, quick-pace. Just needs some little tweaks. The only changes to Frost that I think are necessary are broad-all-3-spec changes like L90's and bombs.

[Gaman]

Fire is far far far away from being perfect. I actually view it as a failure in MoP really. It's just somehow really dreary, you always do the same thing.. Just Fireball till crit and rest people probably already know. And with crit rates being high 70s, it comes really repetive really quickly. I mean some might like that, but at least for me it was a battle to keep awake during farm nights.

What I meant about perfect was the RNG part, its still there, and I like it because of that bit of RNG, and it is far from how bad it was during Cata. Thus, the RNG of it atm is pretty good, not to much, not to little. Only thing that will break you now is if the opener fucks up. Tho you need a good ilvl for it to be viable, which I dont like. Makes things like proving grounds or whatever pretty much impossible as fire because of bad scaling. And if there is a fix needed to fire, its the scaling. But im guessing its pretty much impossible to scale it any good with the current state of the spec. And beeing nerfed each patch because we will scale to high isnt really that fun either. But I like how the RNG works now.

Could fire be overall a better specc? Yes, most definetly.

Except Fire is actually the worst spec of the 3 right now. MoP's rollercoaster of nerfs to it is proof enough of how broken it is with the scaling, and the rotation itself is dreadfully boring. The only redeeming/fun factor is the amount of instants/how much mobility you have because Scorchlol. When you actually break it down though, Arcane and Frost are miles ahead in that regard to overall design (though they still fail in many ways).

Worst spec as in how? As in broken? I agree. As in fun factor, miles ahead of arcane. That has been pretty dull since like forever, even when the DPS of it was sky high, like pre cata patch in ICC(yeah broken), but it was still the most boring spec ingame. Even high DPS wont make a 2 button spec fun. Bit better when it comes to the use of keys now, but ruined by lvl 75 talent. And aslo 90 talent(That goes for all specs)

Frost for me died when pet became a summon that stayed forever (until dead) instead of a use on CD. If i wanted a pet, I would of played a warlock or hunter. And the little I have used it in PvP, popping Orb and Spammin Ice Lance isnt that fun either. (Yeah I know its more too it than just that) Luckily there is still 2 other specs without a pet, sadly one of them is booring as hell(Arcane). And from the looks of the changed made to that spec during MoP, they havent quite figured out Arcane either.

Rework = Lolno. Scrap this garbage already. Might as well scrap Mage.
Remove = Mage becomes tolerable.
Remove 90 + 75 = Mage becomes decent.
Remove 90 + 75 and make the specs less boring/homogenized = Mage becomes an actual class again.

Think most mages agree on this. If they keep the 90 talents into WoD, mage class representation is going to be non existant. Im suprised of how high it was from the HC SoO Class representation linked on the front page. But it definetly wont look like that if changes are not made before the next tier of raiding.

[LocNess]

I do agree with Akraen, don't change Frost, I like how it is currently. Maybe make icicles more interactive but yeah.