Mythical level - 20man

[Deleted]

I don't have a lot of sympathy for their reasons for eliminating the 10/25 split even though I agree with most of them. A lot of people told them these exact problems would arise back before Cataclysm, and they still went ahead with it. If they had implemented this system after ICC, I'd have been very happy. Now it just feels like a bait-and-switch.

It's a risky move anyway. While it's a better system in theory compared to what we have now, the transition might just kill a third of an already struggling heroic raiding scene. I guess they're hoping that the improved system will allow raiding to grow again after initial losses, and I hope they're right.

[Slant]

You seem to draw your conclusion solely based on your personal opinions and that's okay. I don't raid to get epics, I raid to see end game content and to be challenged. However, at some point you have to decide, if putting in all those hours are worth it. To some people it's simply not, when they are being pushed into 20 man raiding.

True that before Cata, people like me played 25 man. But then we got the option of playing 10 man and we've tasted how great that is. Now we simply just don't wanna go back.

You keep talking about how people should just suck it up and if they don't, they were never raiding for the right reasons. Well who are you to decide what the right reasons are? It's easy for you to say, that drama just needs to be put aside, we all know that's not something one just do.

About people playing on crap computers. True, some are but not everyone can afford the upgrade. We have people who are unemployed and have been for quite a while. We have people who're studying and can't afford to upgrade on a student check. You thinking they should just upgrade, won't magically give these people the funds to do so.

You're also ignoring the fact, that many guilds who actually want to merge, are looking at both server and faction change. Not everyone can afford that and I put the blame on Blizz for this. The cost of server and faction change is too steep and who don't have alts after years of playing. Maybe if they made server and faction change free for a period of time, made it account wise or lowered the price, it would make more sense.

Again, at some point you have to weigh things and decide, if the direction the game is going in, is something you want to deal with. It's got nothing to do with comfort zones, it's got everything to do with the process.

You can blame anyone and point fingers at everyone but yourself. That's one option. Or you can get off your behind and start solving the problem. It's not Blizzard's task to cater to your wishes, it's not their job to design the game around your wishes. Deal with it. Oh god, how it feels good to use the same arguments the 10m have whacked over my head in the past years...

[Deleted]

An excellent opportunity for them to find a job then.

Rally dude? In a country like Greece where the unemployment rate of young people are about 50%, you think it's that's easy to just find a job. Stop being so ignorant, it makes you look incredibly stupid.....

[Sonnillon]

You're also ignoring the fact, that many guilds who actually want to merge, are looking at both server and faction change. Not everyone can afford that and I put the blame on Blizz for this. The cost of server and faction change is too steep and who don't have alts after years of playing. Maybe if they made server and faction change free for a period of time, made it account wise or lowered the price, it would make more sense.

Well probably on realms which get to be part of "connected realms" this recruiting and merging would be easier.

An excellent opportunity for them to find a job then.

Isn't it bit harsh? I am not defending the "lazy people" who find it too unconvenient to find a job, but harsh to those people that are looking for a job, but cannot seem to find one?

[Nekovivie]

Finally, none of this split 25 and 10 garbage talk anymore, we can all QQ together about 20 man buffs/nerfs/world firsts

Great change! :0)

[Slant]

I don't have a lot of sympathy for their reasons for eliminating the 10/25 split even though I agree with most of them. A lot of people told them these exact problems would arise back before Cataclysm, and they still went ahead with it. If they had implemented this system after ICC, I'd have been very happy. Now it just feels like a bait-and-switch.

It's a risky move anyway. While it's a better system in theory compared to what we have now, the transition might just kill a third of an already struggling heroic raiding scene. I guess they're hoping that the improved system will allow raiding to grow again after initial losses, and I hope they're right.

It will improve everything, trust me. I've talked to probably everyone that calls themselves progression raider on my server. It's only a limited amount, but over the years I figured that what everyone likes is the competition and recognition and challenges. This will put everyone in the same spot, your raid decides how well it performs compared to others, not the tuning. You will be acknowledged for your performance, not what raid size you have and how it's tuned. The challenges will be bigger, because Blizzard doesn't have to keep a limited 10m setup in their minds everytime they put a boss mechanic in.

And... most importantly. Recruiting is made easier. No more "OH, sure I'd like to join but I preer 10m (or 25m), so no..." Everyone is in the same mindset. This is going to vastly improve the community as a whole and it will bring back players that ragequit over the 10m/25m split fiasco. Stick around and you'll see there are plenty of players to recruit/merge with.

[Deleted]

You can blame anyone and point fingers at everyone but yourself. That's one option. Or you can get off your behind and start solving the problem. It's not Blizzard's task to cater to your wishes, it's not their job to design the game around your wishes. Deal with it. Oh god, how it feels good to use the same arguments the 10m have whacked over my head in the past years...

So your opinion is based off a 25 man raider who's sore about what happened in Cata and now feels the need to verbally get back at all the 10 man players - is that what you're saying? That totally makes sense......

Of course I can start solving the problem, but there's no guarantee that I will succeed. The fact that every 10 man guild is being forced to "deal with it", trying to double their freaking roster is the issue. It's not about being lazy or "raiding for the wrong reasons", it's about not wanting to raid 25 man or well 20 man, why is that so hard to get?

Just because some of you prefer 25 man and are happy about it, doesn't mean you're right and it doesn't magically makes it any easier for 10 man guilds to recruit equally skilled raiders of a dwindling pool of raiders.

And inb4 you talk about having to cut raiders, well what do you think happens with 10 man guilds that merge? The number of tanks are being cut in half, tough luck being a tank. Unless the guild you merge with have different healers than you, 1 or 2 healers are most likely also going to be cut. I don't intend to raid 20 man with 2 Resto Druids and 2 Resto Shamans and 1 Disc Priest. So yeah, 10 man guilds who merge, also have to cut people.

[Deleted]

Then raid 10 man and miss out on Mythic. What did you do before Cataclysm?
That said, 2 people can easily handle 20 players. We have 4 officers in my guild, where of 2 only handle "minor" stuff, like calling raid CD's and voting in loot council.

Raided 10 man normal and then continued on to 10 man HC while 25 man guilds bitched about how easy 10 man was with 25 man HC gear? An option that isn't there with WoD?

And... most importantly. Recruiting is made easier. No more "OH, sure I'd like to join but I preer 10m (or 25m), so no..." Everyone is in the same mindset. This is going to vastly improve the community as a whole and it will bring back players that ragequit over the 10m/25m split fiasco. Stick around and you'll see there are plenty of players to recruit/merge with.

If they genuinely prefer x type of raiding they'll just cut their losses and walk away if that's not being catered to. This train of thought that every single 10 man raider in HCs is going to go, wow going to jump into 20 man now is just silly.

[Deleted]

Except if people wanted to play in a 10 man, they would. They'd downsize to 10 man and shed the "dead weight", by the logic of basicly every 10 man raider in this topic. The entire point I'm making is - ANY 25 man guild can downsize to 10 man, and if the raiders wanted to do that, then they would. If they don't, then obviously, they prefer 25 man to 10 man - there might be some points where they'd prefer 10 man, but overall? They are leaning to 25 man.

never noticed that 3/4 of all the 25 man died when Cata came around?, they already have done what you just said, the few that remains are the ones who wants to play there, and for your argument that no 10 can go 25, true but you can do this thing: /gquit, /w 25 man guild can i haz trial?.

And yes, of course I said Paragon's dpsers are bad? Do you believe otherwise? (And with that, of course, I mean their output. Not neccessarely their skill as players). They're absolutely nothing spectacular -

presuming WoL ranks are a reflection of good dps, GG, last i check WoLs were fillled with people who aoe instead of single target gear for AoE instead of single target and otehr silly things to make it go higher, besides if they suck, what do you do ?.

- - - Updated - - -

Too bad for them. This is for the good of the game. The long term benefits far outweigh the short term cons. The game already lived through the 40 man to 25 man conversion basically unscathed, the same will happen with this. The next 12 months are going to be very long, listening to all the whingers. I can't wait until you doomsayers are silenced when the expac is finally released.

last time they did something like this was in Cata, the 10 /25 loot equalization, you may have missed it seems, about 3/4 off all 25 guilds died. 4 million players quit, how many of them due to to this i don't know but certainly a non zero number.
btw all the doomsayers are going to be proven correct, 10 man raiding is dying, it has gotten a death sentence, its going to die.

[lappee]

Except if people wanted to play in a 10 man, they would. They'd downsize to 10 man and shed the "dead weight", by the logic of basicly every 10 man raider in this topic. The entire point I'm making is - ANY 25 man guild can downsize to 10 man, and if the raiders wanted to do that, then they would. If they don't, then obviously, they prefer 25 man to 10 man - there might be some points where they'd prefer 10 man, but overall? They are leaning to 25 man.
Meanwhile, no 10 man can just go "yea, we'll go 25 man now", because the players do not exist.
If you can't actually wrap your head around that train of thought, fair enough. But it's quite damn obvious to me that if you're 25 man, it's because you want to be 25 man. If you're 10 man, it can just as likely be because your guild had to downsize due to other people in your guild wanting to go 10 man on their own. The entire point here is, going 10 man is ten times easier than going 25 man for guilds, and the amount of players/guilds at 10 man reflects that.

You're talking about whole guilds, which decisions are made by GM and Officers. In that sense you're correct, but we're talking about individuals and guilds are full of them. If a guy from 25man prefers 10 over 25, he still probably wont leave because of friends, loyalty and it actually takes some work to find a proper 10man guild that you can get into (because of the reasons in my last post)

25's wont downsize unless its necessary (dead realm + people quit from the guild etc) because GM's and Officers generally prefer 25's. but thats just minority of the guilds population

Creating a 10m guild is easier than creating a 25m and the guys who create 10m guild usually want to play in that tight core group. Thats majority of the 10man players.
Its WAY easier for individuals to find a 25man guild than 10man guild.

So please, stop talking about guilds as a whole and consider individuals instead - thats where the truth lies

As for my sample size being just as small as theirs - you're entirely correct. But it kind of still does disprove their "I KNOW NO ONE WHO WOULD RATHER BE 25 MAN SO NO ONE EXISTS"-mentality. What I'm talking about after all is a relatively small amount of players in 10 man that's "needed" to even the playing field from 33/66 to 50/50.

Its the mentality you brought in.

And as for the numbers, generally the % if higher of 25man raiders that'd prefer 10man than the other way around.

And yes, of course I said Paragon's dpsers are bad? Do you believe otherwise? (And with that, of course, I mean their output. Not neccessarely their skill as players). They're absolutely nothing spectacular -

Unless they've got tons of hidden logs with them raking in top 10 ranks everywhere, then I can only work off of public information. The best ranked in terms of overall consistency is Verdisha, then comes devai, Iirisu, Oixte, and Deawyn. Lun is nowhere to be found. Out of those, only Verdisha and Devai are in the top 10 for the respective spec they play, and Devai plays the inferior of the two viable hunter specs (SV when BM performs a few percentage points better). Unless of course you'd want to count Deawyn running around as frost mage <.<. Not sure what's better for locks, destro or afflic, but Verdisha is performing as destro.
That said, obviously their players aren't bad - their dps just aren't spectacular compared to any other guild's. I have no illusions that most top guilds are living off of a ton of attempts rather than player performance. I see no reason Paragon is any different.

I know from experience, the mentality of paragon players is to get out of the raids asap. aka we didnt really whore for logs with needless aoe and stuff thats generally required for rank 1's
I just checked WoL, seems they're putting public logs out again and on the first log i inspected (the latest one) theres multiple rank 1's and thats public information (and i've no idea why daewyn plays frost + luny is there in top 10 logs aswell)

Saying that they're bad just makes you look like a fool

[Deleted]

It will improve everything, trust me. I've talked to probably everyone that calls themselves progression raider on my server. It's only a limited amount, but over the years I figured that what everyone likes is the competition and recognition and challenges. This will put everyone in the same spot, your raid decides how well it performs compared to others, not the tuning. You will be acknowledged for your performance, not what raid size you have and how it's tuned. The challenges will be bigger, because Blizzard doesn't have to keep a limited 10m setup in their minds everytime they put a boss mechanic in.

yeah i heard about that now they can stick in add that needs to MCed Soo interesting, like totally a COOL mechanic, so please give me a single instance of when a class specific mechanic was an interesting solution to a raid problem?

And... most importantly. Recruiting is made easier. No more "OH, sure I'd like to join but I preer 10m (or 25m), so no..." Everyone is in the same mindset. This is going to vastly improve the community as a whole and it will bring back players that ragequit over the 10m/25m split fiasco. Stick around and you'll see there are plenty of players to recruit/merge with.

who rage quit over the 10/25 thing?, a bunch of people quit since their guild died but id wager 0 left due to the equalization and their hard feelings about it.
yes the mythic 20 man level will somehow restore wow to its 12 million man number, that seems reasonable.

[Badjoe242]

Less than 25m though. 2x 10m group forms a 20m group. What do you do with the extra 5 people from 25m groups?

25 man guilds still have it easier. I'd rather drop 6-7 people (because of bench) than recruit 10 more people (more like 8-9 if you have a bench on 10man). If you think 10 man guildx2 merger is going to be easy, it's not, ever, will not be, in the history of wow, going to be an easy process (. Giving up guild name, history, everything to be forced to merge won't ever happen. 25 man gets rewarded as 10 gets shafted once again. Why? Because blizzard says it's too hard to balance 10/25.

[Hulkovius]

I know from experience, the mentality of paragon players is to get out of the raids asap. aka we didnt really whore for logs with needless aoe and stuff thats generally required for rank 1's
I just checked WoL, seems they're putting public logs out again and on the first log i inspected (the latest one) theres multiple rank 1's and thats public information (and i've no idea why daewyn plays frost + luny is there in top 10 logs aswell)

Saying that they're bad just makes you look like a fool

Some ppl play for logs, some ppl play for World first. Of course its nice to get decent ranks but it is usually hard to compare due to gear, raidcomposition, strategies, duties, offhealing and whatnot.

They get their ranks but here and there and its the same for all the top guilds. Paragon is not robots, they are players equal to anyone out there. They might not be the best dps but they do their thing and master their class when its needed.

OT: I like the 20 man Myth difficulty. It will make the Race to World first a lot more interesting and it will make it prestigious once again. The bosses is gonna be better tuned and we are going to see a bigger variety of bosses and boss abilities.

[lappee]

Read previous posts for why merges usually does not end well, that will be different this time around. Main points:
Neither guild is flailing around like a retarded magikarp on land, trying to stay alive, rushing into a merge that won't end well.
Everyone is forced to do the same, meaning drama, differences etc has to be put aside unless you want to quit.

Merges were always about staying alive, nothing really changes this time.

If they'd rather quit the game, obviously they are in it for other reasons than actually wanting to raid. If their pc can't handle 20 mans, sorry, but they are playing on a 7 year old piece of crap that they should have thrown out long ago. I had to send in my "newer" laptop for repairs at the start of this tier and bust out a 6-7 year old acer I had laying around. Did I have 10 FPS on it? Sure. Was it playable? Yes, yes it was.

Wanting to raid with their best friends in a tight group while testing how far they can go, thats what people usually aim for unless they're lonely persons without friends that just want loot and fame (Like me!, wait wut?)

Some people can afford new computers, others cant. nuff said.

[Narrax]

Coming from a 10 man raider, I love the changes and cannot wait until raid encounters are balanced well and everyone is again on equal footing.

I'm just super-psyched Mythic won't be tied to Heroic lockout. Now a guild can go in and clear through Heroic and then work on progression and not have to worry about setting aside enough time to clear at the end of the week.

[Dracodraco]

You're talking about whole guilds, which decisions are made by GM and Officers. In that sense you're correct, but we're talking about individuals and guilds are full of them. If a guy from 25man prefers 10 over 25, he still probably wont leave because of friends, loyalty and it actually takes some work to find a proper 10man guild that you can get into (because of the reasons in my last post)

25's wont downsize unless its necessary (dead realm + people quit from the guild etc) because GM's and Officers generally prefer 25's. but thats just minority of the guilds population

Creating a 10m guild is easier than creating a 25m and the guys who create 10m guild usually want to play in that tight core group. Thats majority of the 10man players.
Its WAY easier for individuals to find a 25man guild than 10man guild.

So please, stop talking about guilds as a whole and consider individuals instead - thats where the truth lies

Perhaps you're right from an individual PoV - but you have to realise that if a guy would "prefer" 10 man over 25 man, but stay due to friends etc, then 25 man has more pro's than cons for that player. If any one player truly wanted to play in a 10 man, they'd be in a 10 man and be part of a tight knit core group. If the prospect of leaving friends behind in a 25 man is enough for a person to reconsider, then they don't *really* want to do 10 man, it's just a very vague preference that can be thrown out the window due to other factors.

Its the mentality you brought in.

And as for the numbers, generally the % if higher of 25man raiders that'd prefer 10man than the other way around.

That's your opinion against mine, then . But as said before - if people wanting to go 10 man in 25 man guilds wants to, there's tons of 10 man guilds recruiting everywhere, all the time. If they can be swayed by the fact that they have to integrate themselves in a new social setting rather than just stay put in 25 man where they know people, then they obviously don't want 10 man "bad enough" for it to even matter.

I know from experience, the mentality of paragon players is to get out of the raids asap. aka we didnt really whore for logs with needless aoe and stuff thats generally required for rank 1's
I just checked WoL, seems they're putting public logs out again and on the first log i inspected (the latest one) theres multiple rank 1's and thats public information (and i've no idea why daewyn plays frost + luny is there in top 10 logs aswell)

Saying that they're bad just makes you look like a fool

Not alot of shit to whore on this tier. All dps you do is effective DPS on every single encounter except for Paragons and Garrosh, which both aren't tracked on heroic yet. I took their overall ranks from http://www.proraiders.com/ranks/index_10.php - not individual ranks. On some bosses, some of the DPS has good ranks yes, but on others they're pretty damn far down the list, which means less consistency in terms of performance on encounters overall.
So all in all, I stand by my opinion that paragon's DPS is nothing special compared to other people in the same bracket. I think the main reason for paragons success as of late has been the same as most other top end guilds - time spent and a core of people that knows how to play together. Sanitas output seemed better than Paragons did, considering the item levels Garrosh was beat with and them using 2 healers.
But all that said, obviously the overall performance is still high. I doubt anyone would decline any of the players entry to any guild, as anyone able to perform in the top 50 of your spec is pretty impressive compared to the entire playerbase in itself. It just really, really irks me when people start portraying people who aren't even "the best" as some kind of demi-gods.

[caervek]

This is IMO looking like the coolest expansion content wise since TBC, it's just a massive shame that what could have been the best expansion yet is already ruined for most players due to one colossal mistake (Mythic).

The way I see it 10m players have a couple of options:

• Gquit and find a 20m guild (not a valid option if you do 10m because like most you prefer that raid size/style to 25m).
• Hope your guild merges with another (above note applies here too).
• Carry on as normal except instead of progressing to heroic after clearing normal just unsub and wait for the next content patch.
• Find a new MMO to play.

25m guilds are in the mud too as they will have to choose five people to either cut or bench, it will suck big time picking and breaking it to them

[lappee]

Perhaps you're right from an individual PoV - but you have to realise that if a guy would "prefer" 10 man over 25 man, but stay due to friends etc, then 25 man has more pro's than cons for that player. If any one player truly wanted to play in a 10 man, they'd be in a 10 man and be part of a tight knit core group. If the prospect of leaving friends behind in a 25 man is enough for a person to reconsider, then they don't *really* want to do 10 man, it's just a very vague preference that can be thrown out the window due to other factors.

If you want to think it that way, then you just have to listen to the numbers pulled off from WoL. Since if any 10player would "really" want to play 25, they'd do that. its just as simple as that according to you

That's your opinion against mine, then . But as said before - if people wanting to go 10 man in 25 man guilds wants to, there's tons of 10 man guilds recruiting everywhere, all the time. If they can be swayed by the fact that they have to integrate themselves in a new social setting rather than just stay put in 25 man where they know people, then they obviously don't want 10 man "bad enough" for it to even matter.

And if people wanted to go from 10man to 25, theres plenty of 25's recruiting all the time (+ all the rest of the blahblahblah the other way around, just because it works that way too)

Not alot of shit to whore on this tier. All dps you do is effective DPS on every single encounter except for Paragons and Garrosh, which both aren't tracked on heroic yet. I took their overall ranks from http://www.proraiders.com/ranks/index_10.php - not individual ranks. On some bosses, some of the DPS has good ranks yes, but on others they're pretty damn far down the list, which means less consistency in terms of performance on encounters overall.
So all in all, I stand by my opinion that paragon's DPS is nothing special compared to other people in the same bracket. I think the main reason for paragons success as of late has been the same as most other top end guilds - time spent and a core of people that knows how to play together. Sanitas output seemed better than Paragons did, considering the item levels Garrosh was beat with and them using 2 healers.
But all that said, obviously the overall performance is still high. I doubt anyone would decline any of the players entry to any guild, as anyone able to perform in the top 50 of your spec is pretty impressive compared to the entire playerbase in itself. It just really, really irks me when people start portraying people who aren't even "the best" as some kind of demi-gods.

I can call ways to "whore" on nearly every single encounter. you must realize that even if dps is effective, it might not be the fastest way to do the fight, for example garrosh adds in p1, one can just aoe them down like a madman and lose shitloads of single target dps, or leave them for classes with more efficient aoe's. (this kind of whoring can be seen on nearly every fight and decides the rank 1's)

I never said they're the best DPSers, but saying that they suck is just ridiculous

[XyroN]

It just really, really irks me when people start portraying people who aren't even "the best" as some kind of demi-gods.

It really irks me when some random nobody starts talking trash about players better than him.

[Dracodraco]

If you want to think it that way, then you just have to listen to the numbers pulled off from WoL. Since if any 10player would "really" want to play 25, they'd do that. its just as simple as that according to you

Except that there isn't enough 25 mans around at the given level .

And if people wanted to go from 10man to 25, theres plenty of 25's recruiting all the time (+ all the rest of the blahblahblah the other way around, just because it works that way too)

You'd be surprised, I guess. But ah well.

I can call ways to "whore" on nearly every single encounter. you must realize that even if dps is effective, it might not be the fastest way to do the fight, for example garrosh adds in p1, one can just aoe them down like a madman and lose shitloads of single target dps, or leave them for classes with more efficient aoe's. (this kind of whoring can be seen on nearly every fight and decides the rank 1's)

I never said they're the best DPSers, but saying that they suck is just ridiculous

I think I did mention garrosh as one of the two fights this tier where you can "whore". Namely him, and Paragons ;p. I don't see any way to effectively "whore" on the remaining bosses. From the top -
Immerseus has adds you want to kill, aoeing/dpsing them is not whoring, it needs to be done.
Protectors has 3x adds up at a time, cleaving/aoeing is effective dps as long as you adhere to the order you want to push the bosses, and shortens the overall encounter.
Norushen has adds that needs to die, not whoring.
Sha of pride has adds that needs to die, not whoring.
Galakras, adds and AOE galore.
Juggernaut is pure singletarget and has no way for you to whore.
Dark shamans has adds that needs to die, not whoring. Difference in output depending on tanking them together or apart for cleave, I guess.
Nazgrim has adds that needs to die, aoe'ing/cleaving not whoring.
Malkorok has adds that needs to die, not whoring.
Spoils is a giant freaking cleave-FEST.
Thok has bats that needs to be AOE'd down ASAP, still not whoring.
Siegecrafter needs bombs aoe'd, not whoring.

That leaves paragons where AOE is useless due to them healing back up, and garrosh where P1 adds can be killed off with Iron Stars.
But yea, the entire reasoning for what I said basicly is that people seem to regard Paragon as some kind of "demi-gods" that everyone should suck up to because they managed to 1 heal Garrosh and they clear content fast. No offense ment with it, really, but as said, 1 healing garrosh being more consistent says more about the level of DPS they could put out compared to their competition like Sanitas, than it did anything else.

It really irks me when some random nobody starts talking trash about players better than him.

Good, then you know how I feel . Although I personally have no doubts that I could beat the one player they have that's relevant to me (my main is a hunter, so Devai, in this case). But oh well, opinions will be opinions I guess.