"There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
"The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
"Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"
Really? When was the last time you used that equipment manager addon? I can't even remember its name. How about Atlas Loot? Granted, there are some features that Blizzard didn't pull off as well as addons (I'm specifically referring to the AH UI). For the most part, however, Blizzard does a pretty good job of replacing addons when they're actually serious about it.
While LFR isn't the same thing as they say "actual" raiding for 25 mans.(Which I agree to. It isn't.) It still is a group activity by,usually, 25 people trying to achieve the same goal and I don't see how saying "LFR isn't like raiding at all" actually has any meaning that would be relevant to my statement.
Bragging about performing better than others is indeed different than insulting others about not performing as good as they could. However once again I can not understand what are you trying to say by stating that. Because it's clear that as persons experience grows so does their performance and if it's lacking it's possible to perform worse than you could if you knew how.
Sour taste sure lingers. It might come as surprise but people actually do listen if you offer a comment or advice in a sensible and non-offensive way. You are looking at the problem as if there are only one way of leading a raid which would be an elitist taking control of others like dumb sheep. But it's not like that. Most people playing WoW aren't stupid(There are always exceptions), and such simple things as placing the markers for people can improve the performance of a group by a lot.
The major problem I have as it currently stands is my queues are always averaged over an hour for LFR sometimes 80 min wait sometimes 40 mins. The only time its shorter if it happens to be a last boss. So LFR is becoming impossible for someone with a shorter time to raid. i.e. a casual. So instead I try and jump on flex but you run into the good ol gearscore/ilvl issue. I am often in queues for 40ish mins only to get pulled in for a last attempt at the boss where I am one of the last people alive and have dps equivalent to the same class and role, 20 ilvls higher than me. I really enjoy flex raiding but the community for competent casuals is basically non existant.
The only time I can remember something akin to LFR working was back when ToC when groups used to carry people to auction off pieces of loot. So incentive could be there for people to go back and help out LFR but the game would have to track not only ilvl and role but also some how their actual input and then reward it with higher levels of gold or something.
indeed.. HC scenario gives 100 valor each (with the timed bonus ofc) and not counting the first(wich give even more) and each hc scenario take at max 15 min
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then why use it as an example "LFR is so good i got 400 valor in 3hrs"
Really? Your definition of the only reason people play games is because they're competent at them? Fun never enters into it?
Some people play with friends or family. Does that mean they should stop if they don't meet your criteria for competence?
Some people do little except raise alts in different ways. They find that fun. Is that terribly difficult? No. Would they suck at raiding? They very well might. Does that mean they should leave?
Should they go into Raid Finder? Sure, if they want. That's who it's for. I'll give you they should actually...you know..try while they're in there. That right there makes them better than the AFK brigade many of whom seem to feel they're too good to bother actually pressing buttons while they're in there.
Your inability to see beyond your limited view of why people play is pretty stunning in itself.
"...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."
I think the reason for that isn't LFR itself but the lack of appeal of taking up tanking/healer class. Because to be honest they are the ones usually you have to wait for. Which is why I'm looking forward to WoD tank DPS changes because it is discouraging to play a tank when outside taking damage in raids mostly what you can do is hit like a wet noodle.
No, because I don't regularly get up at 5 am, and very few guilds (none?) are running HCs at that hour. 400 valor in three hours is still faster than no valor in three hours.
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Exactly. I was actually in it for the Secrets of the Empire, but the valor was a nice bonus.
Yeah. That is just not the way I play the game. That is not how a supposedly immersive game is played, either.
At low to moderate levels of tuning, the game should be playable -- successfully -- without anyone expecting or needing help from outside resources. If heroic content can't realistically be cleared without out-of-game effort, that's fine. That's a different game than plain old World of Warcraft.
WoW mostly succeeds at that, but it fails in some ways. The player base fails too, in not understanding this basic premise of the game.
My armory says hello, as well as a lot of other players. The problem with LFR is not that at all, its the lack of accountability. I am fine if you pull 50k and still do mechanics its the people that STILL die to Durumu Beam and wipe groups on trash in Seige that need to be held accountable, another really good way they could fix LFR is offer incentive for ME and my friends to go through and teach and be helpful with the others who see LFR as a casual raiding environment. I can't even help people in dungeons without getting kicked anymore. Its incredibly painful and LFR is awful because of the accountability, not because of Gearscore and Ego, give higher geared players an incentive to go, other than the crappy loot bag, and have some kind of accountability for actions in LFR.
Side note: the creation of LFR was so casual players could see the content, there are some players that really have no place to even make it into LFR, its not mean, its not awful, its not rude, some people just do not have what it takes to do basic mechanics and those people can hurt the experience, not to mention the argument I hear ALOT is "I don't have time to raid 2 hours a night with a guild so I do LFR".... bad news LFR queues for DPS are almost 40 minutes on almost all wings of every LFR in Pandaria and once you get in prepare for another 2 hours of wiping. This stuff isn't mean, its a wake up call.
I agree with 98% of what you are saying, but instance queue times in WoW don't reflect the "length" of a queue. They only reflect the availability of people to fill required roles, and the time that each of those roles spends in the instance.
Anyway if you have time to play LFR back to back, you can queue for a whole bunch and, like you said, have instant pops after you are done with the first one. That is not how queues actually work but Blizzard does people who are queued for multiple instances a FAVOR by moving them to the head of the line. You are actually delaying someone else in your role when you accept the instant pop when you finish an instance.
If you have relevant programming experience, it's interesting to think about how Blizzard's matchmaking/queuing system is implemented. It's really not "get in line and wait" at all. Not by a long shot.
I can't speak for anyone but myself, so don't turn this into a "you don't represent every wow player" argument. I was a loyal prot warrior for years and I hate the direction the developers are going with the role of tanking. On top of being responsible for keeping the targets organized and protecting the raid, we have the additional responsibility of doing competitive DPS. In the developer's attempt at making tanking more attractive to the "LOL BIG NUMBERS" crowd, they have actually made the role less appealing because of the additional responsibility. I did my job and did it very well. I was proud of my tanking, leadership and awareness skills. But doing my job wasn't enough, now I'm a damage class disguised as a protector. I quit playing my warrior and quit tanking all together, but when I raid with my pals today, the tanks only talk about who's doing more damage on each fight. I hate what has happened to the role and it only looks to be getting worse.
Last edited by Cute Chen; 2013-12-19 at 10:53 PM.
I believe I was referring to the future raiding scene. I don't take it too seriously because nothing they ever say that far in advance is set in stone and more often than not they change it beyond recognition by the time it hits. I still remember in late Wrath when Blizzard was saying that ideally every class should feel like they're OP and then Cataclysm hit and I felt decidedly underpowered. But I digress. I screwed up the super-hard 25-man. Evidently it's:
Easy 10-man
Normal 10-man
Hard 10-man
Super-hard 20-man
If they actually bring back challenging heroics like they claim they are going to I doubt I will do any of those modes anyway.
Offering unsolicited advice to strangers, no matter how (you think) correct or (you think) desperately needed nor (you think) politely offered, is incredibly rude and a social no-no. That is a fact. The rudeness greatly outweighs the value of the certain-to-be-ignored advice, and by creating drama, you receive a deserved kick.
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Frankly, if you want to demonstrate calmness, experience, and leadership skills, there really is NO BETTER place to do it than as a tank in LFR. A good tank is just about the only one person who can really have a major effect on how LFR goes for 24 other people.
In order to get more tanks they can lower the item level requirement and give the tanks a huge buff to compensate. Don't think the quality can get any worse with all the catch up gear.
There really isn't much you can do about toxicity of players as long as it remains that hugely anonymous. Maybe a system that keeps track of you doing the correct mechanics for that instance? Would be rather difficult to do right though. Lfr will probably remain in bad shape for quite a while so it's best to just avoid it when possible.
A queue is a queue. I don't know exactly how they implemented the LFR system, but as far as I can tell it goes something like this:
There are three separate lines: one for tanks, one for DPS, and one for heals. As soon as a raid spot for the appropriate role opens up in an existing instance, the player in front is pulled. If a group happens to fill up and an instance is available the group gets to go.
When you queue for multiples your place in line is held. If you happen to advance to the head of the line while you're doing your other raid you will simply cut straight to the front when you're done. Otherwise you're back in your old spot. The reason you can't tell why the queues are long is that there are several possible scenarios:
1. Too many instances are running so you have to wait until one opens up.
2. As tanks and heals leave other instances the ones queued up to run in your instance are getting redirected to those instead.
3. There simply aren't enough tanks and/or heals running LFR to get even a single group together.
Everyone seems to assume #3, but there's no way of knowing if that's really the case.
This is a joke right? Tell me how that it is rude, hostile, and a "social-no-no," to help people when they are having trouble...... You know what... no don't, quite frankly I am disgusted that its considered a bad thing to try and be polite and make conversation in an MMO, really.
This isn't a feelings simulator its a video game, if a person cannot handle being told they are doing something wrong, then just quit.
Last edited by Paula Deen; 2013-12-19 at 11:08 PM.