WoW is soooo "developer" driven and not player driven. Reason cause its losing subs!

[psyquest]

Check subscriber numbers and you will see that wow plateau_ed and started loosing subscribers just after they made is more accessible.

Too accessible means they killed the dream. simple.

[Al Gorefiend]

Check subscriber numbers and you will see that wow plateau_ed and started loosing subscribers just after they made is more accessible.

Too accessible means they killed the dream. simple.

wow this sentence really resonated with me. Very accurate on how I feel about WoW atm.

I think Garrisons will add a little sandbox, I hope, if they truly go through with what they say and make it a customizable place instead of just "Heres your FARM hub, build a FARM on this hub"

[Faroth]

I highly doubt that, though. More choices for advancement does not make a sandbox game.

Nor did I say it would be a sandbox game. Elements of both.

[Tomana]

The problem is....it's a gamble. And investors don't like gambles.

I agree completely. It is much more simpler to do a remake of a game (cf. Battlefield and Call of Duty) then taking risks and do something new.

[Stir]

Check subscriber numbers and you will see that wow plateau_ed and started loosing subscribers just after they made is more accessible.

Too accessible means they killed the dream. simple.

Ehm... Hang on.

They did not make it more accessible. They made it easier, but also more of a grind. Which is the opposite of making it more accessible to the public. Veterans got burned out on the grind, and new players had to look at 90(!) levels of character advancement, over three(1) different expansions beyond the original... It's simply too large to attract many new players.

Blizzard did what they did, and sure; that lost a lot of subscribers. The benchmark has been passed, and subs are going down... But can you imagine how bad it would be if they decided differently? WoW could have been dead three times over. Instead, it's still alive and kicking, even if it is growing older and has started taking afternoon naps.

Nor did I say it would be a sandbox game. Elements of both.

And I understand what you mean, honestly. The point that I'm trying to make is that 'elements of sandbox' do not exist. Either it's a (free-roam) themepark, or it's a sandbox. More freedom does not a sandbox make, and 'freedom' is not a sandbox element. 'Lack of content,' however, is.

[Teebone]

WoW is more like an episodic TV show I enjoy. Only instead of a script, I control the dialogue.

[tankbug]

The Timeless Isle is somewhat of a sandbox experiment. They don't tell you much, and you don't have a bunch of quest chains. Do people enjoy it? I think it's alright.
Nothing that makes or breaks the game for me. But I think that every time Blizzard makes something that requires effort from the player to experience properly, there will be addons that help you making it simple and quick again. The eternal struggle

[mickybrighteyes]

Anyone who thinks this game would be better off if it were player driven needs to pull their head out of their ass and look at the community. You'd really want a game based around what users on MMO-Champion think it should be? That'd be the fastest way to kill an MMO ever.

Not full on replacing developer content updates, but having players able to make some stuff would improve things. Like, crappy 5 man or dailies based on something the devs have already implemented. Or stuff on the open world level that winds up largely unused outside of daily areas.

What's left to do after you're valor capped and done for the week with raids? Nothing with respect to pvp unless you want to farm gold.

[Deleted]

Not one of these threads again.

[Nihth]

If that is the premise, then the reasoning boils down to 'I want nolifers to be more powerful than other gamers because I deserve more power, and screw your balance crap!'
I don't think that's the intention.

Ye you are right. What I meant was just less linear, you do stuff in the pace you want, and dont mind if some no life dude is doing something faster or better.

[Stir]

Ye you are right. What I meant was just less linear, you do stuff in the pace you want, and dont mind if some no life dude is doing something faster or better.

The problem with that, however, is balance. You see, most MMOs are gear-focussed. (Nearly) all of your stats come from gear. Therefore, being a no-lifer would be immensely rewarded if there is no limit on what to grind.
And that wouldn't be such a huge deal were it not for internet anonymity and safety of play. Which will inevitably result in only nolifers being able to team up for high-end content, because they don't want any of the 'noobs' in their team. And 'noob' here has nothing to do with 'being new,' and everything to do with 'not being top-of-the-pops geared and has every achievement and equipment piece from that same content already.'

As a result, a large part of the playerbase will not be able to see such content at all, despite their skill and/or dedication. People complain about LFR and LFD, and I have to say that there are quite a lot of valid complaints about them, but it does help to combat this divide.

Also realize that 'most people' are not nolifers. Nolifers have the time and patience to grind until they drop, and then have the gall to make demands especially suited for them, but that turns into ordinary gamers burning out incredibly quickly since they won't get to see the same content because of 'elitist pricks' who won't take them. This causes EXTREME subscription loss. Far more sub losses than LFR and LFD will ever cause.

There's a reason for such balance.

[Count Zero]

Check subscriber numbers and you will see that wow plateau_ed and started loosing subscribers just after they made is more accessible.

Too accessible means they killed the dream. simple.

WoW got as big as it was because it was more accessible than the MMOs it drew inspiration from. Your argument holds no water.

[Deleted]

WoW got as big as it was because it was more accessible than the MMOs it drew inspiration from. Your argument holds no water.

It could be true to some degree. But honestly, I believe World of Warcraft got so big because of the famous and really good Warcraft games. Also at the time, MMOs of that standard were new, there wasn't too much competition around.

[Grubjuice]

I enjoy pineapple pizza, but this seems to be a topic of quite polarized views. Does anyone else enjoy pineapple as a pizza topping?

I've never tried it because fruit on pizza just sounds odd to me, but my boyfriend has assured me that he's going to make me do so one day.

peppers and tomatoes and olives are also fruit you know...

- - - Updated - - -

anyway, to the OP

i think your so-called category of theme-park MMOs is not inherently bad.

having a designer design a game is a valid strategy, and sand-box type games are frought with their own problems... neither is a perfect and neither an invalid category.

WoW is still very successful, and I enjoy it.

[ComputerNerd]

So by your argument the game would never have had the popularity it did.
Therefore the entire argument is false.

The game is old, and in many ways more of the same.
The original players are older and having real responsibilities now.
There is greater competition than before.
Plus an often overlooked factor of a downright horrible community.

There is no single factor or reason why the subscriptions continue to decline.

[Kryos]

You look at the "old schoool" MMOs such as Ultima Online, the taple top dungeons and dragons which were so player driven, it kept players interest. Its like an artist. You give him a blank cavas and he paints a masterpiece. That is what MMOs were.

And here starts the wrong assumtion that every player is

a) an artist (to stay in the analogy) able to create more that some crude stick figures and
b) wants to paint/do the work.

The majority has the "Ok, I'm here, ENTERTAIN ME!" attitude. Not the "Oh a blank canvas, I finally can draw all my great ideas". If you force the "Entertain me" crow to draw, most will draw a stick man with a big penis, laught at it and then get bored. That's the sad but true reality. That's why only few people loved and played Sandbox MMOs. It's about the same amount of people who are artists and have much creativity and fantasy in reality.

[Viikkis]

It could be true to some degree. But honestly, I believe World of Warcraft got so big because of the famous and really good Warcraft games. Also at the time, MMOs of that standard were new, there wasn't too much competition around.

With that logic Swtor should be one huge ass game cause Star Wars is pretty popular lol

[MrLordDariusCrowley]

I feel these videos might be slightly appropriate:

[Tomana]

With that logic Swtor should be one huge ass game cause Star Wars is pretty popular lol

And it could have been if Bioware developers had a bit more brain.
Instead, they made a clone of WoW but with much crappier end-game and then wondered why it did not take off.

[Giscoicus]

Sandbox and multiplayer don't work we'll together I'm afraid. There will always be a best path, fastest most efficient easiest way to reach a goal. There are side paths people take, but they take much longer and thus are used by a minority. No matter how well balanced each path is, just the path the majority chooses makes it a best choice. Linearity always emerges so Blizzard decided to cut off the excess. The only way people stray is great rewards. Challenge mode dailies give an extra one of those Hscen boxes that can have 516 gear, but tht wasn't enough to get people to do them in 5.3. Only the mount and transmog was enough.

Content needs to be developer driven because unlike other games that are sandbox, this game is competitive. Things like ElderScroll games let you play how you want because it has 0 effect on others. If I want to have argonian women with a twig and berries I can, and nobody else has to deal with it. In a multiplayer, and permanently always linked no offline same servers multiplayer, pretty much everything you do has an impact, no matter how big or small that impact is.

The dev team also is limited in what they can do. Only so much can be made so they design for the majority, and the majority of people always take the easiest route. If dungeons have gear equivalent to LFR, LFR would die in a day since dungeon gearing is easier and faster. had something like that happened, Blizzard would leave the underpopulated LFR and worry about dungeons because that is where the majority end up.