Are the sub losses partly down to Blizzard's "rush everybody into latest tier" design

[wych]

Now before I start I want to point something out:

THIS IS NOT A WHINE THREAD COMPLAINING ABOUT HOW WOW USED TO BE BETTER IN THE OLD DAYS AND HOW WOW SUCKS NOW.

I STILL PLAY WOW AND ENJOYED MOP VERY MUCH.

PLEASE DON'T TURN THIS THREAD INTO AN LFR/CASUAL DEBATE. THERE'S PLENTY OF THREADS FOR THIS ALREADY.


Now with that out of the way, let's get started.

As many will remember in Vanilla and TBC (and a tiny extent WOTLK) you started in the earliest tier no matter when you joined and worked through to the final tier. Join 10 months late? You're still starting in the first tier.

Since WOTLK and beyond they changed that philosophy, for reason's ill discuss later, they want players to experience the CURRENT tier and make the past tiers pretty much irrelevant, they also added multiple difficulties which have increased since the original design.

The 2 main reasons for this are pretty obvious:

1) They WANT players to see their content, it must have sucked for players buying TBC and not killing Illidan.

2) Progressing from start to finish was a long process and especially with attunements many guilds got stuck in T4 or T5 and had their players poached by the best guilds.

These are 2 very valid concerns.

However, there's 1 huge side effect.

In TBC people didn't whine that they were stuck in BT or Sunwell for a year, because most of them hadn't reached it yet (though most did when a 30% nerf came in). Players didn't quit because they still had content they hadn't played yet and bosses they hadn't seen, and perhaps wouldn't see.

Once WOTLK hit and players got pushed into ICC at the end, the idea of progressing through tiers was gone, players geared up and went into the latest tier. Suddenly the forums were awash with complaints, people were stuck in ICC (ignoring Ruby Sanctum 1 boss raid) for a full YEAR. The same 12 bosses for a full YEAR. Sure most hadn't killed LK on heroic, but they'd already "seen" the raid instance and most of the encounters (maybe 1-2 mechanics aside). People quit and some never returned.

Similar happened in Cata, and the problem was made even worse with the availability of LFR where players could see DeathWing the day the wing opened in LFR.

I'm not saying "REMOVE LFR!!", "SCREW CASUALS!!!" and I don't want this thread to turn into that so don't get me wrong here and derail the thread. In fact in SoO i've only seen in it LFR so far, and i'm a casual player now.

I am just curious as to whether people think the idea of making tiers irrelevant with each new one is a good idea? And whether there'd be more subs if they went back to the old system? Especially given the massive sub losses in the last 6 months of WOTLK, Cata and soon to be MoP.

[Deleted]

I can understand both your point and Blizzards point. I am a somewhat casual player as well, and I support the idea of having to progress through previous tiers. It keeps the world alive and players busy. The problem we have now is that Blizzard has shifted to the ''Get everyone to the latest tier'' so much, that shifting back (even a bit) will result in an enormous uproar. Personally, I would not mind removing LFR or having less powerful gear drop on Timeless Isle and such, as long as there are other reasons to go there. I only did LFR once this patch, and I personally like the fact that I didn't see the content that often yet. Now I can progress through the raid slowly with my guild and see all the encounters one by one in their full glory with my guildies. (Not an LFR rant). I will continue this in WoD, as it brings the old WotLK feel back to me.

As for linking your idea to sub losses... I wouldn't go that far. It is a contributor, no doubt about that, but it is by far not the only reason. There are many different views, and Blizzard can't make everyone's wishes come true. We just need to hope they come with some good ideas which will allow them to go back to their old ways (on all fronts, and without causing an uproar).

[-Superman-]

As a casual player, I think most of the "dedicated gamers" have grown up, gotten married, had kids, moved on, etc. There is no bringing WoW back to the height of it's popularity. That's like trying to make the WWE as popular as it was when a young Hulk Hogan squared off against Andre the Giant. Times change, games change, and things evolve. There is no amount of change which could reverse time. You don't need a new tier design, you need a Flux Capacitor.

People will still spend the same amount of time, doing the same thing, and playing the same content regardless of change. Just look at WoD. The minute they announced new models and a FREE lvl 90 toon for all players, people lost their minds and started shouting about how the game is dying, and how new models and player housing is not content. Bottom line, haters are gonna hate, and NO ONE will ever be able to please EVERYONE. Especially Blizz.

As for progressing through Tiers, I think the current method is the better method. I've played since after the TBC launch, and have experienced both.

[Shrouded]

Of course it's partially due to this. Logic dictates that when Blizzard obsoletes content artificially by pushing everyone to the latest raid tier, there is less non-obsolete content to partake of which in turn leads to boredom and sub cancellation, especially when there's such a large gap between patches. I don't think anyone can argue that it doesn't have an effect.

[Lothaeryn]

If blizzard made it so only the latest 2 tiers were relevant, and there was a catch up system for anything prior, I would be happy.

I honestly never understood why they thought making every tier irrelevant as soon as the latest one comes out was a good idea; it cheapens the effort and quality they put into their older content and exacerbates the new toy syndrome that latest content always suffers.

[Barnabas]

Partially those reasons and 2 stupid expansions story wise.

[snackfeat]

You can't blame sub losses on one thing alone. But i agree that it felt better when you had to progress through the tiers. I remember being excited about clearing MC and going into BWL in vanilla, even though some guilds on the server were doing Naxx.

I'm pretty sure nobody complained about having to progress through the tiers in vanilla and tbc. Personaly i would prefer it the old way, cause its so easy to get burned out from current content when its the only relevant thing in the game. But it might be too late to go back now.

[vindicatorx]

The thing is Blizzard wanted to make more content available for a larger pool of players. LFR does this yet let's be honest, as soon as most of us clear the content a few times we don't really want to do it anymore because there is nothing else to do afterwards. I believe Blizzard should reintroduce multiple tiers at the same time and reintroduce the attunement process to access new content.

[Osmeric]

No, I don't think so. I think the sub losses in this expansion were due to problems in the initial design. Dailies weren't fun, and normal mode raids were way too hard. So there was basically no group content suitable for all but fairly hardcore guilds (LFD/R isn't guild content.)

They tried the "lesser players will lag back a tier" design in Cataclysm. Remember when they nerfed T11 by 20% when T12 came out? That went over like a lead balloon.

Fundamentally, I think the multiple difficult mode design doesn't work. It tells most players they suck and need to stay in ghetto difficulty modes. If that is the case, then modes catering to the top players will have to go, even if those players quit.

[Deleted]

no, infact the opposite.

[Osmeric]

I'm pretty sure nobody complained about having to progress through the tiers in vanilla and tbc.

There were lots of complaints in BC. And, more specifically, the design led to poaching, and there was a lot of complaining about that.

[Palinn]

I liked the systems pre-Cata tbh. Tier A is released in its hardest form for everyone. After a bit tier A is nerfed/adjusted slowly so that more people can complete it. When Tier B comes out Tier A is made accessible (easier) for the common population and TIer B continues down the progression path.

The way it is currently there's almost no tangible reward for someone to play the hardest level of content when it is current which makes those hardcore players eventually quit. The top tier players are almost always the most recognizable by the community and by them quitting it sparks others to quit as well - or to move on to whatever game the top tier players they like went to.

Obviously the decline of subs in WOW has many other factors, but this is certainly one of them.

[Cute Chen]

Partially those reasons and 2 stupid expansions story wise.

Cataclysm covered some pretty important lore for Deathwing, it just wasn't implemented very well and felt more like it was about Druids, Shamans, the Elements and Thrall and his hurted feelings. With the Lich King, you felt his presence everywhere you went in Northrend. Every time you thought you made some progress, there he was, three steps ahead of you and you couldn't wait to kill the bastard. I was really excited to go back to some original lore in Cataclysm, but they just didn't pull it off.

[Osmeric]

The top tier players are almost always the most recognizable by the community and by them quitting it sparks others to quit as well - or to move on to whatever game the top tier players they like went to.

I don't see any evidence for that. Most players have no idea who the top players are.

[Saxtorph]

The speed of progress through tiers of content is a direct result of player requests to be in the current tier as fast as possible. Don't blame Blizzard. They are responding to customer requests. Once again this topic shows us that Blizz is damned if they do and damned if they don't.

[Mawnix]

You asked for faster content.

You got it.

Now you're complaining about it.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Partially those reasons and 2 stupid expansions story wise.

I agree with your 2nd part but I only remember one expansion being terrible on the story side, and there wasn't sub lost then.

[Cute Chen]

I liked the systems pre-Cata tbh. Tier A is released in its hardest form for everyone. After a bit tier A is nerfed/adjusted slowly so that more people can complete it. When Tier B comes out Tier A is made accessible (easier) for the common population and TIer B continues down the progression path.

They had that system in Cataclysm as well, they just experimented with different ways of nerfing the content or buffing the players.

I personally liked the Burning Crusade method when they did a sudden, sweeping %30 nerf to all raids in one patch. Every other method they've tried just feels like a Carrot on a Stick.

[Palinn]

I don't see any evidence for that. Most players have no idea who the top players are.

Not everyone knows the top tier players, that's correct. Here's how it works - not everyone knows who Riggnaros is (just an example) but enough players do that if he were to quit a portion of those players would also quit as a result. Now, more people know those people who quit and a portion of those players will quit.. and it continues downward from there. This can happen with any person quitting, obviously, but a more well known person will spark a larger group of people.

[wych]

Cataclysm covered some pretty important lore for Deathwing, it just wasn't implemented very well and felt more like it was about Druids, Shamans, the Elements and Thrall and his hurted feelings. With the Lich King, you felt his presence everywhere you went in Northrend. Every time you thought you made some progress, there he was, three steps ahead of you and you couldn't wait to kill the bastard. I was really excited to go back to some original lore in Cataclysm, but they just didn't pull it off.

Indeed, although I think that was a response to people saying in WOTLK "Lich King was everywhere you lost, he had no mystery or excitement because he popped out of every closet in Northrend".

I think it's indicative of one of Blizzard's largest flaws, they go way too far 1 way constantly.

Illidan invisible in TBC? Throw Lich King everywhere in Northrend
Lich King too prominent in WOTLK? Remove Deathwing from most of the storyline in Cata

Same with stuff like dailies

5.0 has too many dailies? WoD will potentially have 0 dailies.


They need to strike balances

- - - Updated - - -

You asked for faster content.

You got it.

Now you're complaining about it.

Not everybody has the exact same opinion about everything