Who else is worried about another 3.0 when 6.0 drops for ret?

[anaxie]

It wasn't until Sunwell where Ret was useful. Mainly because of Judgment of Wisdom and Light, which helped the raid a lot. Put a Ret Paladin in a buff group with Wind Fury Totem, and they would produce immense damage. This was easy cause raids were stacking Shaman for Heroism/Bloodlust. Sunwell was that hard.

But again, not until late TBC. Most of TBC, Ret was a leveling spec. All of Vanilla, Ret was a leveling spec. It took a lot of bitching to get that fixed. That's why 3.0 Ret was so strong. There were so many complaints.

But not surprised nobody here remembers, cause anybody who's played the game as long as it's been out, would have left already.

Vanilla - Bad
TBC - Bad
WOTLK - Good
Cata - O.K.
MOP - Underwhelming

That's how I see Retribution throughout the games existence.

Ret why fine in TBC pre sunwell. It's okay if you couldn't play it. Very few could.

The CS cooldown and threat talents did help though. That and when they reworked how CS scaled with weapon damage instead of with partial SP and fixed our tier itemization. albeit in a very half assed way since the T6 bonus's still sucked dick since hammer wasn't a button you hit with the swing reset and SP socket bonus's... In hindsight that was pretty fucked up actually.

[dercaderca]

BC (s4 mostly) ret paladin was by far the funnest class I have ever played.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Well which patch? I got something like 25k on Hodir, 12-15k on fights in ToGC and 15-22k in ICC (as boomkin)

10k in 3.0 sounds pretty insane, even if you had a full group of BiS people to get the boss down faster.

ICC, At least that's what I DID. Please note I wasn't heroic.

I think the big problem is the really passionate players with great ideas post here and not on the official forums , while im sure blizz looks here every once in awhile , they are going to look on their own forums first and foremost where most of the paladin posters say everything is perfect and they live in a land of rainbows and honey , and honestly on the official forums.. when somebody tries to suggest changes or fixes to problems they get trolled by the fan boys scared that they will loose their rainbows and honey

Here's the thing Zabinneth(DId I spell that right?): The passionate players may have great ideas but if they don't present them well or in a constructive manner. It'll get lost. Yes there is *fanboys* but that shouldn't be used in an argument. It's obnoxious and rude. With that said I'm still waiting for Inquisition to either become a passive or something.

[anaxie]

Here's the thing Zabinneth(DId I spell that right?): The passionate players may have great ideas but if they don't present them well or in a constructive manner. It'll get lost. Yes there is *fanboys* but that shouldn't be used in an argument. It's obnoxious and rude. With that said I'm still waiting for Inquisition to either become a passive or something.

I remember when I got them to buff our SoL this expac and revert the T15 Bonus back to TV instead of having to DS. Good times

I was so proud how my children rallied under my crusade. Then I got lazy zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I remember when I got them to buff our SoL this expac. Good times

I do believe I remember that, when I didn't main a Pally(Warrior/mage player at the time Ret's were getting more and more buffs).

[Borigrad]

I remember when I got them to buff our SoL this expac and revert the T15 Bonus back to TV instead of having to DS. Good times

I was so proud how my children rallied under my crusade. Then I got lazy zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

It's funny cause if you go over my post history like 3-4 years ago when i was last largely active. They took a lot of my ideas for the class and put them into the class, but it took them years to implement. The spec is largely out dated.

Either they hesitate to buff paladin's cause of bias or they just don't like the idea of a "utility" spec being top 5 dps. Who knows, but Ret is due for an expansion where they are consistently top 5 and not just cause a raid is literally designed to cater to them and they still aren't top of the charts coughICCcough.

[Zabannith]

ICC, At least that's what I DID. Please note I wasn't heroic.




Here's the thing Zabinneth(DId I spell that right?): The passionate players may have great ideas but if they don't present them well or in a constructive manner. It'll get lost. Yes there is *fanboys* but that shouldn't be used in an argument. It's obnoxious and rude. With that said I'm still waiting for Inquisition to either become a passive or something.

maybe fanboys was the wrong word , I only used it for lack thereof a proper word to describe people who think the spec is just fine and are happy being subpar because of our "utility" yes hands are nice , yes devo is nice , yes off heals are good to have , HOWEVER if you have a prot and or a holy pally your not needed , the raid would progress faster if they were to bring a higher dps melee or a ranged plain and simple... also alot of higher dps spec bring just as much or more useful utility than a ret does(smoke bomb and banners say hi) , especially if you already have a prot and/or holy pally in the raid this is even more so apparent on 10m , 25m sure u have room . but when it comes to 10m you dont have the wiggle room

EDIT and WTF is up with our shitty scaling? the better gear i get the less dps proportional to the other dps in the raid i do , its frustrating as hell , as bear said many months ago we need another sword of light buff , he was right we really did need one every tier ..just imagine how bad off we would be in we didn't get that one in t15..

[Vash The Stampede]

Ret why fine in TBC pre sunwell. It's okay if you couldn't play it. Very few could.

The CS cooldown and threat talents did help though. That and when they reworked how CS scaled with weapon damage instead of with partial SP and fixed our tier itemization. albeit in a very half assed way since the T6 bonus's still sucked dick since hammer wasn't a button you hit with the swing reset and SP socket bonus's... In hindsight that was pretty fucked up actually.

If you raided as Ret pre patch 2.3, then your guild was doing you a favor. Without the threat reduction from patch 2.3, you would have pulled threat from the tank. Your dps would have be junk. CS would not be able to refresh Judgment of Light or Wisdom at 10 seconds. You would have been a useless waste of a raid spot. PvP wasn't any different. Does anyone remember that it wasn't until 2.3 that we got PvP gear with resilience? Yea, we were the only class that didn't get resilience on our gear.

You can't honestly tell me that Ret was viable at anything until 2.3. People made videos that detailed the experience that Ret Paladins went through. It's a comedy, but it's spot on with Ret in TBC.

[anaxie]

This video better be worth it

Watched 10 minutes of it and then wanted to never speak to you again duke. I hate you.

[Vash The Stampede]

The video is mostly comedy, but it shows the troubles a player would go through if he/she decided to go ret. Late in that expansion, Holy was replaced with Restro Druids and that's why Paladins as a whole class just vanished. Hence the over buffing of 3.0 Ret.

Another more serious example is This Extra Credits Video. These guys are game developers, and use Ret Paladins in TBC as an example of a mistake game developers shouldn't do. The illusion of choice. Back in TBC we called it pigeon hole. The part to start watching is 2:19.

Roll Holy Noob!
LOLRET!
Heal or Leave!

Where you think all that terminology came from?

[anaxie]

I must of missed the comedy part in first 10 minutes it was anything but comedy

That video is shit

And you know what? any player of any class still go through hardships to this day because so many people are bad. I honestly could care less about a video someone made to joke about their terrible misfortune.

Maybe you missed my post too where people would go LOLret right before i curbstomped them in tbc. 99% of the population was either stuckin in 5 mans and kara for the lifetime of the expansion or they farmed arena gear at 1 piece of a month. WHOOOOO.

I mean I didn't even get stuck at any point. Rolled ret got lots of LOLret. Promptly offered the fine individuals to blow me.

I mean we all make mistakes and have to learn at some point. Goodness I think when i was gearing in TBC heroics I thought Jagged talasite was the fucking best thing in the world <stam/Crit gem> LOL. I think the only regret i had within tbc that i wasnt a bloodelf. because when i first started i saw seal of blood and i'm like "why wouid i want to hit myself. Fuck that noise! D: big mistake

leveled blacksmithing and had it at max as i dinged 70 on my first char ever cuz im like. Whoa these wpns pretty fuckin legit. Joined a guild that was happy go lucky terrible and sucked balls at everything. Fuck that noise I'm a winner. If you want to win at games make sacrifices and make some friends. Anyone stuck in this game and not beating it is entirely their own fault in this game and always has been.

I mean you can make friends with anyone. I'd rather make friends with people intelligent enough to actually try to win at the game they are playing. Do you play non mmos and sit contently at level 1 jumping up and down. Probably not.

[nyc81991]

If you raided as Ret pre patch 2.3, then your guild was doing you a favor. Without the threat reduction from patch 2.3, you would have pulled threat from the tank. Your dps would have be junk. CS would not be able to refresh Judgment of Light or Wisdom at 10 seconds. You would have been a useless waste of a raid spot. PvP wasn't any different. Does anyone remember that it wasn't until 2.3 that we got PvP gear with resilience? Yea, we were the only class that didn't get resilience on our gear.

You can't honestly tell me that Ret was viable at anything until 2.3. People made videos that detailed the experience that Ret Paladins went through. It's a comedy, but it's spot on with Ret in TBC.

While Ret wasn't great in TBC pre 2.3, It definitely wasn't as bad as most people thought. Honestly the worst part about Ret was the response you got from people for playing it. I remember not being able to get into any pug heroic groups because "Lolret". However, when I raided with my guild I would constantly shock people for actually doing good Dps.

The secret to doing good dps as Ret in TBC was having an enhancement Shaman in your group for windfury totem. If you didn't have that then you were pretty worthless. Luckily my guild understood that so I was always paired with a Shaman.

[Vash The Stampede]

I must of missed the comedy part in first 10 minutes it was anything but comedy

That video is shit

Besides the comedy or lack there of, it showed the hardships a player would go through to play as Ret.

And you know what? any player of any class still go through hardships to this day because so many people are bad. I honestly could care less about a video someone made to joke about their terrible misfortune.

Ret in TBC wasn't about players being bad, but the spec was. The whole point of this is to learn from past mistakes. Mine was continuing to play the game out of spite. All it did was put money in Blizzards pockets. I didn't know better, I wanted to play as Ret no matter what. Through it I learned all sorts of tricks to optimize my play style. Everything from Seal twisting to macros.

But in the end a broken spec is still broken. Why is it that Retribution went through more changes then any other class? It was that broken. Holy Paladins play style hasn't changed as much as Rets.

If you want to win at games make sacrifices and make some friends. Anyone stuck in this game and not beating it is entirely their own fault in this game and always has been.

I mean you can make friends with anyone. I'd rather make friends with people intelligent enough to actually try to win at the game they are playing. Do you play non mmos and sit contently at level 1 jumping up and down. Probably not.

I remember going into Kara as Ret and constantly doing low dps and pulling threat from the tank. It got to the point that I was constantly kicked out of 5 mans and ignored. Not a lot you can do in this game by yourself. I made the sacrifice and spec Holy until patch 2.3. I carried a guild and progress was made. You know what? I hated it. I wasn't having fun.

WOTLK felt like it finally made up for all the crap Ret Paladins had to deal with. Cata was bad at the start, but better near the end of the expansion. Those Rogues with legendarys though, they left a bad taste in my mouth. MOP is worse then Cata in terms of balance. That's why when it comes to WOD, I'll be avoiding it entirely. I'm going by word of mouth instead of what talents I see. Both the Paladins and the players that go up against them. If Ret sounds powerful, then I'll get it. Otherwise as soon as Heroic SoO is cleared my subscription stops.

Don't make the mistake and circle jerk over Divine Conviction. Nobody has any idea what other changes are being done in the game.

[Deleted]

While Ret wasn't great in TBC pre 2.3, It definitely wasn't as bad as most people thought. Honestly the worst part about Ret was the response you got from people for playing it. I remember not being able to get into any pug heroic groups because "Lolret". However, when I raided with my guild I would constantly shock people for actually doing good Dps.

The secret to doing good dps as Ret in TBC was having an enhancement Shaman in your group for windfury totem. If you didn't have that then you were pretty worthless. Luckily my guild understood that so I was always paired with a Shaman.

Ret was insanely bad in TBC. Its a joke saying you needed an enhancement shaman in your group for WF totem, every class had a reason to want a shaman in their grp(BL,Spellpower Totem,Agi Totem, WF totem etc) and of all melee ret was absolutely the worst. Would of used a Warrior and 3 rogues over any ret every day of the week.

If you were playing Ret instead of Holy(specially before the months of BT/Hyjal farm) you were doing your guild(and yourself) a massive disfavor because honestly you weren't worth the loot regardless of what item dropped(conq==>go warlock/priest,plate/2handed wep==>go warrior).

[Lumineus]

You're way off base with that "2H wep==>warrior" remark. Unless you carried people through raids just to get PvP gear. Warriors didn't have Titan's grip in Burning Crusade, and as bad as you think Ret was for your raid (yeah hello, judgement of wisdom still = fucking amazing considering the state of mana regen at the time), that's how much worse an Arms Warrior would be.

[Lyese]

Still makes no sense why you called it a leveling spec. I've been an asset going on 13 tiers now and it certainly wasn't based how i handled Vargoth's Staff

Kalgan literally called Ret a leveling spec in vanilla, and that mentality carried over into BC.
source: http://wow.joystiq.com/2007/04/24/ka...n-retribution/

EDIT and WTF is up with our shitty scaling? the better gear i get the less dps proportional to the other dps in the raid i do , its frustrating as hell .

Welcome to the problem that's plagued DKs every single tier since ICC.

Ret in TBC wasn't about players being bad, but the spec was. The whole point of this is to learn from past mistakes. Mine was continuing to play the game out of spite. All it did was put money in Blizzards pockets. I didn't know better, I wanted to play as Ret no matter what. Through it I learned all sorts of tricks to optimize my play style. Everything from Seal twisting to macros.

Seal Twisting made you somewhat competitive, but no one would replace the Enh Shammy with a Retadin. The Rogues and Fury Warr would bitch nonstop without their precious WF totem.

If you were playing Ret instead of Holy(specially before the months of BT/Hyjal farm) you were doing your guild(and yourself) a massive disfavor because honestly you weren't worth the loot regardless of what item dropped(conq==>go warlock/priest,plate/2handed wep==>go warrior).

Prot Pals were actually super competitive in progression MH/BT, and even in progression SSC (not so much TK) because of a few things

A) Uncrushable-lawl
B) AoE threat so Warlocks could spread their seeds without grabbing aggro, great for fights like Tidewalker to just about everything in MH
C) Divine Shield cheese. Because who wouldn't want 1.5s (or however long the taunt fixation lasts) of complete immunity while tanking?

[Swampmoose]

ICC, At least that's what I DID. Please note I wasn't heroic.

It's hard (nearly impossible) to use someone's DPS in normal modes and non-heroic gear to make any assessments about the class or spec. Guild's not making it into heroic modes are going to have some people who typically aren't on the same performance level as others who play their class. This causes a fairly low overall raid dps which in turn makes individual dps look lower. I went from a mediocre guild to a top 100 guild late in wrath and my dps went up 1-2k on some fights. If raid dps is up, buff times are up, therefore individual dps is up. In average guilds, all of these factors can be all over the place. You also have to take into account Shadowmourne and how it impacted the DPS of those who didn't have it. You can't have a few thousand rets running around doing 2k dps more than anyone else, so the alternative is that those without it had to remain lower on the charts.

These are the average of the top 120 DPS parses on World of Logs for Heroic Festergut back in September 2010. You can actually use this to make fairly accurate assessments about ret as a raiding spec.

Fury 20178
Fire 19896
Combat 19296
Marks 18631
Ret 18544
Assasination 18255
Unholy 17872
Frost DK 17850
Affliction 17816
Shadow 17200
Arcane 17060
Demo 16859
Enhance 16578
Boomkin 16528
Feral 16502
Blood 16474
Elemental 16203
Destro 15616
Survi 15395
Arms 15151
BM 13568
Frost 11354
Sub 12682 (only 73)

[anaxie]

Ret was insanely bad in TBC. Its a joke saying you needed an enhancement shaman in your group for WF totem, every class had a reason to want a shaman in their grp(BL,Spellpower Totem,Agi Totem, WF totem etc) and of all melee ret was absolutely the worst. Would of used a Warrior and 3 rogues over any ret every day of the week.

If you were playing Ret instead of Holy(specially before the months of BT/Hyjal farm) you were doing your guild(and yourself) a massive disfavor because honestly you weren't worth the loot regardless of what item dropped(conq==>go warlock/priest,plate/2handed wep==>go warrior).

Right because Arms was better then fury sword spec right. again it's okay if you and anyone you came into contact with in TBC sucked at ret. It wasn't easy to play. Have fun

[Vash The Stampede]

Right because Arms was better then fury sword spec right. again it's okay if you and anyone you came into contact with in TBC sucked at ret. It wasn't easy to play. Have fun

Ret was a fairly easy spec to play in TBC, but that all depends on how you played.

For the most part you slap on Seal of Command and spammed Crusader Strike. Judgment of Crusader first for Holy damage boost. If you wanted to edge out more damage, you would Judge between auto attacks and reseal. Spam Consecration if you have the mana. This is also not a very difficult process, especially with a mod like Quartz. It's also not very effective, as no plate gear except Tier gear came with intellect. Judgment only scaled from intellect and spell power, so it got worst as you got more gear.

But then Slayton showed everyone the benefits of Seal twisting around mid TBC. Yes the video is in WOTLK but he explained it long before. But it really only benefit Blood Elf's, as they had Seal of Blood. Alliance Paladins didn't benefit much from this system, and you lost mana very quickly from doing it.

Even if you just slapped on Seal of Command and hit Crusader Strike on cool down, you'd still be terrible. Remember 10 Crusader Strike couldn't reliably refresh Judgments on bosses, and you'd practically have to refresh it often. If you were in a raid with another Holy Paladin, you'd need them to constantly reapply their Judgment of Wisdom or Light, thus making your utility useless. If you didn't have the 30% threat reduction from Fanaticism in patch 2.3, you would have died from pulling threat from the tank. Either that or you did very poor dps in raids, and thus never pulled threat.

[Drknife]

I'm sorry and no offense but if you arent beating randoms its a skill issue the only place you should struggle is when you are around people who are doing Cap out dps and 95% of players outside of Heroic based raiding aren't even capable of obtaining past 50% of their gears output.

Let them LOL ret me while most of the time I que for shits and giggles I do 1/3 of the raids DPS.

You know what happened when i started playing in TBC in 2.1 and rolled ret as my first char? Lol ret , Lol ret , Lol ret , Lol ret You know what i was saying in a few months? Lol hows kara? Then I cleared BT/SW while they followed behind me sniffing my gloriously rosey turds.

Just wanted to say Anaxie, that this is the best thing I've ever seen on MMOchamp.