Will Tinkers be a class in WoW?

[Teriz]

There have been numerous posts about how tinkers ARE engineers. Where do you get this information? Because you said so?

http://www.wowwiki.com/The_Schools_o..._-_Enchantment

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The issue is the overlap with the engineering profession and the term tinker being used elsewhere.

Class and profession overlap is a non-issue. Always has been.

[Ielenia]

Just like Enchanter is a synonym for Mage.

Nice falacy. I won't bother explaining it again since it has been talked about many times and you have proven time and again your uncanny ability to ignore all evidences against your ideas.

Game mechanics are the basis of classes.

Game mechanics in WC3 =/= Game mechanics in WoW. I just thought I should point this out to you.

It would clutter no less than the wings on the back of a Warlock during Dark Apotheosis.

Correction: it would clutter more than the wings on the back of a warlock. Just look at the pictures from WC3 that you posted, yourself. Just the backpack, not counting the arms, is much bigger than the goblin itself. Imagine with the arms. You fail.

Actually I was merely showing Thimagrym that mechanical arms work just fine in a MMORPG.
Again, please read the entire discussion before responding to it.

Which, again, you're trying to prove viability/canon in WoW when it was proven it could not. Huge backpacks with enormous mechanical limbs = too whymsical/silly for WoW.

[Hatecore]

http://www.wowwiki.com/The_Schools_o..._-_Enchantment

and playable mages use 3 schools fire, arcane, frost

Class and profession overlap is a non-issue. Always has been.

tinkers ARE engineers.

No way they can add tinkers with engineering in the game

[Teriz]

tinkers ARE engineers.

Then where are the Tinker abilities within Engineering?

No way they can add tinkers with engineering in the game

How do you figure that? Professions don't do what classes do.

[Hatecore]

Then where are the Tinker abilities within Engineering?

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...0#post25971370

How do you figure that? Professions don't do what classes do.

tinkers ARE engineers lore wise.


Adding A tinker to the game would overlap with engineer.

[Ielenia]

@Hatecore:

You'll have to try to word your responses a little better, my friend. Posts like yours that depend on the readers' ability to think logically fall flat against Teriz' inability to think outside his box.

[Traveler Voltin]

you have to be an engineer to be a tinker.

[Hatecore]

Oh DD Gaming explained why tinker wont happen



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@Hatecore:

You'll have to try to word your responses a little better, my friend. Posts like yours that depend on the readers' ability to think logically fall flat against Teriz' inability to think outside his box.

No matter what anyone says he willl says TINKERS ARE NEXT TO WOW GUYS

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you have to be an engineer to be a tinker.

100% this they are one in the same

[Teriz]

Nice falacy. I won't bother explaining it again since it has been talked about many times and you have proven time and again your uncanny ability to ignore all evidences against your ideas.

http://thesaurus.com/browse/Enchanter

The English language is a fallacy?

Game mechanics in WC3 =/= Game mechanics in WoW. I just thought I should point this out to you.

Yet several game mechanics from WC3 are currently in WoW.

Correction: it would clutter more than the wings on the back of a warlock. Just look at the pictures from WC3 that you posted, yourself. Just the backpack, not counting the arms, is much bigger than the goblin itself. Imagine with the arms. You fail.

If that's the style of mechanical arms they use. They could easily design mechanical arms that don't obstruct the view.

Which, again, you're trying to prove viability/canon in WoW when it was proven it could not. Huge backpacks with enormous mechanical limbs = too whymsical/silly for WoW.

Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Sad.....

[Skayth]

You're in melee slashing foes down with Demonic slash and burning them down with Immolation aura.

Are you fkn serious? I am being serious here. Have you EVER played a demonology warlock before? 1 Its touch of Chaos (shadow damage), and you are at range. 2 Immolation aura is not Immolation. (go read the texts of each.) Big difference in text and actual visual appearance.

Now if you are talking about a glyph which has no lore impact on the game, otherwise you are saying that priests are the servants of the lich king with glyph of the Val'kyr, then demonic slash has no impact in gameplay value, as it does no damage, and you are not duel wielding any sort of weapon, rather its very embarrassing if you have a staff. And its still a 10 yard range. Not to mention, its a shit glyph.

What's the difference?

Go look at all the demon hunter's transformations, its not into illidan, rather a black demon, this one, Metamorphosis Illidans in black temple basically makes him blacker and his runes glow brighter. And then in well of eternity, he transforms into a blue demon of his corrupted form. So... tell me the difference.. right. Exactly. THEY ARE DIFFERENT.

Chaos Wave.

WAVE. its not a bolt. And you only have 2 charges at that. Not to mention its pretty nerfed since its PHYSICAL damage. So where are my machine gun bulleted Bolts of Chaos? Right. we have none.

You have Shadow bolt, Grimore of Sacrifice, Pursuit, and Provoke. All of which are equivalents to DH Illidan Stormrage's abilities in Well of Eternity.

We do not EVER sacrifice a felguard/wrathguard, otherwise you are a shit demonology warlock. Shadow bolt has been in game since vanilla and illidan has never used it. He does not use sacrifice. he does not use Pursuit, well because he never saced a demon for it to begin with, rather "Thrill of the Hunt" from HotS. He does not use Provoke, which in itself is not even a taunt, but a straight up taunt.

It is pretty clear that you are attempting to say that "Glyph of Demon Hunting" makes a warlock a demon hunter, but you clearly do not know anything about the shitty glyph. So lets begin with the basics, and the basics is grammar. Lets go back to elementary school, and learn nouns, pronouns, and verbs. Hunter is a pronoun, as it is a title, not an action. Hunting is a verb, as it is an action. Demon Hunter is a pronoun, which can basically only be modified by making it plural with an s at the end making it more than one, or possessive with an 's at the end, giving owner ship to. Now, Demon Hunting is an action, very specific at that. What does it mean? To hunt demons. See, hunt can have -ing, -ed added to it, as its a verb, but it cannot have -er added to it, as that would make it a pronoun.

Alright, to the second basic. What is the form called that you get? Is it Demon Hunter as the glyph's name suggests? No, its not. It is Dark Apotheosis form. Well damn.

Onto the abilities you gain. Threat Generation, a gimped passive mitigation, Fury Ward, Demonic Slash and Provoke. So you gain threat generation, which is good, as it suggests tank spec. But then you get a gimped mitigation as it was overpowered in beta, so lets not "balance" so they nerfed it to the point of no return. Fury ward now sucks, as it was our active mitigation, but with our gimped passive, fury ward just gets clobbered through. Provoke its not a taunt, as you cannot taunt raid bosses, even though the glyph was supposed to be an "oh shit" button once your tank is dead and battle rezzes are used, you basically do a warrior or paladin with throwing a shield on, or druid to bear form, and taunt the boss and hold aggro as the rest of the team kills it, while you get killed within 30 seconds, but since Provoke cannot taunt dungeon or raid bosses, there is no point to even having this. Demonic slash, 3 charges, 10 yard range, no swords, nothing. Not very demon hunter-y.

Caster Form. Shadowbolt, Corruption, Hand of Gul'dan, Soul Fire, Wild Imps, and Felguard. Shadowbolt is a very generic nuke that has been used since vanilla by all specs and demons (shadowbolt volley by doomlords) and dhs do not use, until wotlk, where destro started using incin, as incin was terrible in bc, Then in mop, Afflic got MG and Destro got Incin, no more shadowbolt sharing. Corruption, a simple dot, no known demon uses, nor does dhs. Hand of Gul'dan, not used by demons, from our knowledge, and no demon hunter uses, possibly made by Gul'dan himself. Soul fire, same as corruption, and similar back history of shadowbolt how it became demo only. Wild Imps comes from procs of soul fire, doom, and shadowbolt, and can be summoned by glyph, so its a summoning spell, and no known demon hunters have them in their service (illidan's illidari demons are free of the burning legion's service... see greenfire questline). Felguard, see Wild imps, though you just summon him straight out.

Last, abilities of Metamorphosis, you get Doom, Chaos wave, Touch of Chaos, Sleep, Carrion Swarm, Immolation Aura (shared), Curse Auras (shared), and Demonic Leap (shared). Doom is a pitlord and Doomguard spell, and original worked in vanilla that upon killing something at the end of its duration it would summon a doomguard, but now, its just another dot that is nothing special, besides occasionally summoning a wild imp, which Dh's cannot do. Chaos Wave, a physical damage wave (as it goes through anti-magic shell) and has two charges. No known demons use it, nor do the Dh's. Touch of Chaos, a slash through the air, does shadow damage, instant, no known demons or dhs use it. Sleep replaces fear, a dread lord ability. Carrion Swarm, a wave of shadow damage with a knock back (unless glyphed), a dread lord ability. Immolation Aura burns the ground at your feet, an Infernal Ability. (not demon hunters, as demon hunter shroud themselves in a mystical fire). Curse Auras, no known demon uses these auras, but Dread lord uses vampiric aura, so demons do use auras. And Demonic Leap, pretty generic leap, as any demon could use, but demon hunters have not shown useage.

So with the run down of the entirety of Demonology warlock, its seems that warlocks are using DEMONIC spells they learned from DEMONS, as that is what DEMONOLOGY is all about. The Glyph of Demon Hunting is not a DEMON HUNTER, it is a warlock in DARK APOTHEOSIS form (and its shit at that.)

Not mention lore that contrast everything. >.>

[blackblade]

It don't think its a matter of Can, Cant, Will, or Wont.

It's a matter of "Could it?" Sure. They "Could" also implement a bajillion other classes. If they have the right theme, feel, and a compelling position in the game's dynamic that isn't being filled and isn't going to make it feel homogenized out of the box, then they'll implement it. They wouldn't add Death Knights in Burning Crusade, because the class dynamic would clash "Fight demons, become rogue agent of the lich king" You send a mixed message. People who want to fight demons think: "I want a demon expansion, get this undead crap out of here" and the people who wanted the lich king expac would be "You said the lich king would be involved, where's that at?"

Basically, they add classes to a) fill a void in playstyle or theme, and b) to help immerse you in the expansions culture. DK lore gave players insight into how the lich king operates. Monk lore gives you insight into how (and why) pandaren fight. They lose a storytelling tool if they make an expansion revolving around a specific class and theme, without letting players engage in that theme.

Fitting a tinker, verbatim from WC3, would require a setting with a need for someone who's combat-engineering talent is above-and-beyond; The reason GC says it'd feel too "Whimsical" is because it'd be very hard to introduce them into the lore in a serious manner. If we had an entire expansion where war-machines and SoO style raids, they might be-able to introduce a class that way, but they'd still need to find a way to do so in a way that they feel "Badass" and "Serious" while capturing some of the less seriousness of what lore defines the tinkers union to be, a sort of sarcastic, rocket slinging, mechanical arm waving maniac with a tendency to explode himself and everything and everyone around him.

So, think of the following:
How does he stand toe-to-toe with the other heroes of azeroth?
What races are able to be a tinker, and why?
How do they explain the difference in engineering style between alliance and horde, goblin and gnome?
->Do they create a new lineage of tinkers who utilize multiple styles of engineering? Multiple animations per faction? Race?
How much of the player population would change, and where would those players come from?
How are they going to be different from other classes in their roles?
How to they fit into the story so far? The story going forward?

I could see them folding the tinker's concept into something else, kind of like how brewmaster got folded into monk, with a few familiar abilities but otherwise a whole new kit. That would get them around the 'But tinkers would feel stupid without engineering' argument, drop the stigma of 'Tinkers are a joke class' give them a reason to be using tinker abilities without having to worry about stepping around 'Goblin vs. Gnome' and even put a spin on the class that has them make sense given a specific setting or theme in an expansion.

[Ielenia]

http://thesaurus.com/browse/Enchanter
The English language is a fallacy?

How can you think 'Thesaurus' is WoW? Besides, all the enchanter does is enchant items. Mages cannot enchant, it's a school they did not learn.

Yet several game mechanics from WC3 are currently in WoW.

But not all. Unless you can prove all are, it's irrelevant.

If that's the style of mechanical arms they use. They could easily design mechanical arms that don't obstruct the view.

No way they won't obstruct the view, unless they're made tiny enough to be completely useless in everything worthwhile.

[Teriz]

Are you fkn serious? I am being serious here. Have you EVER played a demonology warlock before? 1 Its touch of Chaos (shadow damage), and you are at range.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=114175/demonic-slash

2 Immolation aura is not Immolation. (go read the texts of each.) Big difference in text and actual visual appearance.

It comes from this ability; http://www.wowhead.com/spell=104379

Which comes from Illidan Stormrage.

Now if you are talking about a glyph which has no lore impact on the game, otherwise you are saying that priests are the servants of the lich king with glyph of the Val'kyr, then demonic slash has no impact in gameplay value, as it does no damage, and you are not duel wielding any sort of weapon, rather its very embarrassing if you have a staff. And its still a 10 yard range. Not to mention, its a shit glyph.

The glyph having no "lore impact" would be your opinion. I was merely pointing out that you can do almost exactly what Dark was attributing to the DH.

Go look at all the demon hunter's transformations, its not into illidan, rather a black demon, this one, Metamorphosis Illidans in black temple basically makes him blacker and his runes glow brighter. And then in well of eternity, he transforms into a blue demon of his corrupted form. So... tell me the difference.. right. Exactly. THEY ARE DIFFERENT.

So we should create an entirely new class because the demon forms have different hues?

WAVE. its not a bolt. And you only have 2 charges at that. Not to mention its pretty nerfed since its PHYSICAL damage. So where are my machine gun bulleted Bolts of Chaos? Right. we have none.

I do believe his argument was that Metamorphosis could only do Shadow and Fire damage. I was simply correcting his mistake. Besides, Destruction already has Chaos Bolt.

We do not EVER sacrifice a felguard/wrathguard, otherwise you are a shit demonology warlock.

Whether or not it maxes DPS damage doesn't change the fact that you CAN sacrifice your Fel/Wrathguard and gain a charge ability.

Shadow bolt has been in game since vanilla and illidan has never used it. He does not use sacrifice. he does not use Pursuit, well because he never saced a demon for it to begin with, rather "Thrill of the Hunt" from HotS. He does not use Provoke, which in itself is not even a taunt, but a straight up taunt.

Since this seems to go above your head, let me help you out some;

Darklance= Shadowbolt
Aura of Immolation= Immolation Aura
Demon Rush= Pursuit
Gift of Sargeras= Grimore of Sacrifice
Taunt= Provocation

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=55532#abilities

It is pretty clear that you are attempting to say that "Glyph of Demon Hunting" makes a warlock a demon hunter, but you clearly do not know anything about the shitty glyph. So lets begin with the basics...

Let's not. You clearly dislike the glyph. It doesn't change the fact that the glyph exists, was designed by Blizzard, and for all intents and purposes makes you a Demon Hunter.

Feel free to have the last word on this. I'm not interested in restarting this "debate" in a thread about Tinkers.

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How can you think 'Thesaurus' is WoW? Besides, all the enchanter does is enchant items. Mages cannot enchant, it's a school they did not learn.

http://www.wowwiki.com/The_Schools_of_Arcane_Magic_-_Enchantment

That guy would disagree.

But not all. Unless you can prove all are, it's irrelevant.

All is not required. For example Cluster Rocket and Healing Spray have already made it in, and they just appeared in MoP.

Who knows what's next?

No way they won't obstruct the view, unless they're made tiny enough to be completely useless in everything worthwhile.

Or simply designed to jut out from the sides like the Warlock's wings currently do.

[fixx]

http://www.wowwiki.com/The_Schools_of_Arcane_Magic_-_Enchantment

That guy would disagree.

That book is part of Higher Learning achievement. If you look through the list it's easy to see it's direct copy from AD&D second edition wizard schools. With absolute certainty it's not part of canon but an pop culture reference to AD&D and D&D where all fantasy RPGs are based on. None of that shit has got anything to do with WoW lore, because in WoW the schools of mages are arcane, fire and frost, and nothing else.

And the bottom line is enchanting like all other professions is not tied to any class. 'Tinkerer' is (derogative) term for second-rate engineer, sorry.

[Teriz]

Oh DD Gaming explained why tinker wont happen



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Just so you know, he said that the Tinker class probably couldn't be a HERO class. Which I agree with.

Also he said that my Bard class concept was a good/cool idea. He even linked my thread in the video. That was very cool, so thank you for bringing it to my attention.

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That book is part of Higher Learning achievement. If you look through the list it's easy to see it's direct copy from AD&D second edition wizard schools. With absolute certainty it's not part of canon but an pop culture reference to AD&D and D&D where all fantasy RPGs are based on. None of that shit has got anything to do with WoW lore, because in WoW the schools of mages are arcane, fire and frost, and nothing else.

It's in WoW. It's cannon.

And the bottom line is enchanting like all other professions is not tied to any class. 'Tinkerer' is (derogative) term for second-rate engineer, sorry.

Enchanting is tied to Mages since it uses Arcane magic.

[fixx]

It's in WoW. It's cannon.

Enchanting is tied to Mages since it uses Arcane magic.

It's one of the hundreds of pop culture references, and has got nothing to do with mage class.

Pretty pathetic attempt considering you can make a mage without any profession, or any of the other 10 classes except mage with enchanting profession, proving those aren't tied in any way or form. Except maybe in your special reality.

[Sukhoi]

Just so you know, he said that the Tinker class probably couldn't be a HERO class. Which I agree with.

He also laid all anti-demon hunter arguments to rest.

[Teriz]

It's one of the hundreds of pop culture references, and has got nothing to do with mage class.

Pretty pathetic attempt considering you can make a mage without any profession, or any of the other 10 classes except mage with enchanting profession, proving those aren't tied in any way or form. Except maybe in your special reality.

You can make a Tinker without any profession as well.

The point is that Enchanting and Mages share a theme just like Engineering and Tinkers.

From the link;

Disenchanting is the process of dispelling or removing magic. The dispel magic spell is among the most important in a mage's arsenal, as it can potentially reverse the catastrophic effects of a misfired spell. It is also possible to permanently disenchant a magical item.

[hrugner]

That book is part of Higher Learning achievement. If you look through the list it's easy to see it's direct copy from AD&D second edition wizard schools. With absolute certainty it's not part of canon but an pop culture reference to AD&D and D&D where all fantasy RPGs are based on. None of that shit has got anything to do with WoW lore, because in WoW the schools of mages are arcane, fire and frost, and nothing else.

And the bottom line is enchanting like all other professions is not tied to any class. 'Tinkerer' is (derogative) term for second-rate engineer, sorry.

Even were it not a pop culture reference, none of the non-enchanting abilities mentioned in the book appear as mage abilities indicating that there are other caster classes beyond those we know of. Kael'thas's dancing weapons would be a cool addition to any class... wait! Is KT a blood DK! It's in the book, it is the canon lores!

Tinker is pretty much the engineering version of hobbyist (real life, not in game). Not so much derogatory as an indication that someone can't perform related tasks at a professional level.

[Teriz]

He also laid all anti-demon hunter arguments to rest.

If you honestly believe that Blizzard would hand off the DH design space only to eventually create a DH class using the design space they've already used....

Then sure, why not?