[Mage] Anyone else sick and tired of the 90 talents?

[FuriousLupus]

They're lame. I knew I hated them as soon a I read them, and I hate them even more now after dealing with them all expansion. They're simply lazy, and they add zero 'fun' to gameplay.

It'd be like shaman weapon imbues or deadly poison lasting 1 minute, Shadow and Moonkin form only lasting 1 minute, hunter and warlock pets running away after 1 minute, etc.


Also, this has nothing to do with the 90 talents, but: i miss living bomb spreading a whole lot.

[Ponkster]

At ilvl 575, the talents have minimal impact on my rotation now. Half as annoying as they used to be. Its definitely got better with gear; I do want them out for next expansion though.

[Statix]

I've been sick and tired of them ever since I had the displeasure of choosing them.

Especcialy during leveling, the level 90 talents are a freaking pain in the ass. I feel like a Dragonball Z character who needs to power up every time in order to be at full strength. Talents should increase your power above 100%, not be mandatory to reach 100% of your power...

They made me quit my Mage.

I hate Living Bomb being limited to 3 or 5 targets, whatever it is these days. Fire has become boring. It used to be amazing to see Hot Streak in your screen. This whole Inferno Blast bullshit is just a lazy fix by Blizzard because they don't wanna put any effort into bringing Fire back to the way in was back in WotLK.

[Obelisk Kai]

They're lame. I knew I hated them as soon a I read them, and I hate them even more now after dealing with them all expansion. They're simply lazy, and they add zero 'fun' to gameplay.

It'd be like shaman weapon imbues or deadly poison lasting 1 minute, Shadow and Moonkin form only lasting 1 minute, hunter and warlock pets running away after 1 minute, etc.


Also, this has nothing to do with the 90 talents, but: i miss living bomb spreading a whole lot.

A quick perusal of any Mage forum would reveal the near unanimously head opinion that the level 90 talents are the most hated aspect of our class, and they clinch the prize for the worst talent tier in the game by miles.
They are anti-fun and boring.

We have no evidence beyond a few tweets, but it is enough for us to infer that the level 90 talent maybe going away in patch 6.0 and that we may receive a tier of talents that is actually fun.

[FuriousLupus]

At ilvl 575, the talents have minimal impact on my rotation now. Half as annoying as they used to be. Its definitely got better with gear; I do want them out for next expansion though.

I agree that in a raiding situation that they aren't ~horrible~ most of the time, but is it really ok that a talent we have to use to do our best dps "isn't horrible"? Definitely want them gone next expac. Don't even know what class I'd switch to if they're not - I love my mage.

Especcialy during leveling, the level 90 talents are a freaking pain in the ass. I feel like a Dragonball Z character who needs to power up every time in order to be at full strength. Talents should increase your power above 100%, not be mandatory to reach 100% of your power...

They made me quit my Mage.

I hate Living Bomb being limited to 3 or 5 targets, whatever it is these days. Fire has become boring. It used to be amazing to see Hot Streak in your screen. This whole Inferno Blast bullshit is just a lazy fix by Blizzard because they don't wanna put any effort into bringing Fire back to the way in was back in WotLK.

Agreed, Agreed. What class did you switch to? Living Bomb has been limited to three targets for a while now, though.

- - - Updated - - -

We have no evidence beyond a few tweets, but it is enough for us to infer that the level 90 talent maybe going away in patch 6.0 and that we may receive a tier of talents that is actually fun.

Here's to hope! I must have missed those tweets. Really, really hope they completely scrap them though.

[Polarthief]

Here's an old poll I took quite awhile ago. While the sample size is obviously tiny to count as "data", just look how overwhelming that "I loathe all three" option is, and how small the "I enjoy 2 or all 3" is.

[Pull My Finger]

When I see people talking about "lazy design", I instantly know they don't have a clue about anything.

[Shangalar]

I don't feel like we need yet another thread about the level 90 talents. However, I will keep this open in case there are fresh users who would like to vent in a way. Just don't overdo it, lets keep it civil.

[nightfalls]

Especcialy during leveling, the level 90 talents are a freaking pain in the ass. I feel like a Dragonball Z character who needs to power up every time in order to be at full strength. Talents should increase your power above 100%, not be mandatory to reach 100% of your power...

1. You don't have the 90 talents when leveling. But I understand, my 87 mage is now the next one to hit 90, and I'm already loathing the upcoming Hobson's choice.
2. "Increase your power above 100%" is an irony. Definition of 100% means all talents are technically mandatory (or useless) to reach 100% of your power for any class.

But I understand what you mean, the argument I'd use is this:

Most good 90 talents give you an extra tool or a way around limitations. Think of the Priest 90 talents, they are an extra tool you can use to do AoE damage or healing. Or the Warlock 90 talents, they give you a tool to move better or to do more AoE damage, or an extra DPS cooldown.

The Mage 90 talents require you to stand still, or to hard-cast a long channel, or to take damage. They are the opposite of an extra tool or an extra means of dealing with limitations; they are themselves the limitation that you have to work around.

[adezero]

wouldn't you have to evocate every minute to keep mana up anyway? even without the talents, you still have to keep mana up

[Dreadii]

wouldn't you have to evocate every minute to keep mana up anyway? even without the talents, you still have to keep mana up

That is true, but they could just give us a higher passive mana regen during combat, reduce spell cost and make evocation 1 min baseline, then redo the 90 talents to increase our dmg/utility.

[Obelisk Kai]

That is true, but they could just give us a higher passive mana regen during combat, reduce spell cost and make evocation 1 min baseline, then redo the 90 talents to increase our dmg/utility.

Correct. They have even said that the biggest flaw with the 90 talents was the fact they attached mana management to it. I disagree, the mistake was that they existed at all. Even if mana management were removed, they'd still be glorified maintenance buffs.

Am I setting myself up for disappointment I wonder. With the tweet on multi-dotting, I expect changes to the level 75 tier. With the tweets and comments on the level 90s, I expect them to disappear. I am salivating at the prospect of beta and the release of all that wonderful information to that will hopefully show we are being moved onto the right path.

Maybe my expectations are too high...

[Raugnaut]

What I'm hoping is a change to the 90 tier to be more self healing.

Invocation- new button, place a buff on yourself that lasts for 3 seconds, after 3 seconds 10% heal, dispellable, 10 second cast time, on GCD.
Rune of Power- whenever you stand still for more then x seconds, you regenerate 1% health per second.
Invoker's Ward- Absorbs 25% health for 3 seconds. 25 second CD time. Undispellable, off the GCD, usable while stunned(?).

Thus, you have 3 options that change up how mage is played in PvP, and 2 options that are good in PvE. For all 3, opposing players need to look out for it- can't let the mage stand still, have to dispel, or have to swap temporarily.

Not only that, it'll give mages some MUCH needed healing in solo content.

[Coldvibes]

What I'm hoping is a change to the 90 tier to be more self healing.

Invocation- new button, place a buff on yourself that lasts for 3 seconds, after 3 seconds 10% heal, dispellable, 10 second cast time, on GCD.
Rune of Power- whenever you stand still for more then x seconds, you regenerate 1% health per second.
Invoker's Ward- Absorbs 25% health for 3 seconds. 25 second CD time. Undispellable, off the GCD, usable while stunned(?).

Thus, you have 3 options that change up how mage is played in PvP, and 2 options that are good in PvE. For all 3, opposing players need to look out for it- can't let the mage stand still, have to dispel, or have to swap temporarily.

Not only that, it'll give mages some MUCH needed healing in solo content.

I like the idea of a defensive tier again, but...

1) If it's self-healing that's not our niche, our niche is damage reduction/prevention. Self-Healing and heavy tanking ability is a warlock niche, which again Blizzard flubbed giving to warlocks with Soul Leech and Sacrificial Pact.
2) If it's what you just suggested, the no-brainer talent would be still be Invoker's Ward across the board, because on-demand absorb is far more useful than a heal that requires you to be rooted.

Our 90 talents just needed to be fun and interesting tools.

[Polarthief]

wouldn't you have to evocate every minute to keep mana up anyway? even without the talents, you still have to keep mana up

Because IW doesn't give you infinite mana. Because other classes actually deal with mana. (Both of those statements are sarcastic btw)

There's no need to force us to use Mana because it was a flawed mechanic anyway. Run out of mana and... OH LOOK, NOW YOU CAN'T CAST SPELLS OR DO ANYTHING AND ARE THEREFORE WORTHLESS EVEN IF IT WAS OUT OF YOUR CONTROL; ENJOY WANDING, NOOB! This is why mana was no longer an actual mechanic for the longest time (outside of Healers, Arcane, and I guess a very teensy-tiny point of new Destro).

Seriously though, play with IW and never cast it once; see how many times you feel like you need a mana boost. I'll save you the trouble: Unless you're playing Arcane, 0.

- - - Updated - - -

What I'm hoping is a change to the 90 tier to be more self healing.

Invocation- new button, place a buff on yourself that lasts for 3 seconds, after 3 seconds 10% heal, dispellable, 10 second cast time, on GCD.
Rune of Power- whenever you stand still for more then x seconds, you regenerate 1% health per second.
Invoker's Ward- Absorbs 25% health for 3 seconds. 25 second CD time. Undispellable, off the GCD, usable while stunned(?).

Thus, you have 3 options that change up how mage is played in PvP, and 2 options that are good in PvE. For all 3, opposing players need to look out for it- can't let the mage stand still, have to dispel, or have to swap temporarily.

Not only that, it'll give mages some MUCH needed healing in solo content.

Please no. This doesn't really help much in the ways of talents. You could easily throw these on a glyph or something of the like. The talents should be abilities that make you feel good and have fun when you cast them, not gimmicky things like this :\

[nightfalls]

There's no need to force us to use Mana because it was a flawed mechanic anyway. Run out of mana and... OH LOOK, NOW YOU CAN'T CAST SPELLS OR DO ANYTHING AND ARE THEREFORE WORTHLESS EVEN IF IT WAS OUT OF YOUR CONTROL; ENJOY WANDING, NOOB! This is why mana was no longer an actual mechanic for the longest time (outside of Healers, Arcane, and I guess a very teensy-tiny point of new Destro).

That's part of what turned me off of pure casters so badly. I really hate Mana as a resource, with Destro (where it is basically an energy bar) and Arcane being exceptions (since mana is actually a part of arcane, and not just some arbitrary limitation). It's always felt most natural on healers, where you (supposedly) want to over-heal as little as possible and plan so you can use the most efficient spells to react to damage.

It's never felt so good on damage dealers, because damage dealers are supposed to max their overall throughput in general making mana supremely uninteresting. Unless it's an energy bar (and seriously, destruction might as well just have an energy bar) or unless its management is an integral part of your spec, like Arcane.

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Note: That said, I only liked the idea of Cataclysm Arcane better, where you had "burn" phases with CD's, then you wanted to conserve, and it was planned around your Evocation/Mana Gems, and you could modify your burns/conserve encounter-depending. Staying at 100% with ROP does not seem interesting whatsoever.

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TL/DR: Mana as in just "mana" is not an interesting DPS resource at all. On hybrids, it's interesting because it limits your off-healing. On pure casters, it's just not interesting save for when it's energy (Chaotic Energy) or when it serves a secondary-resource purpose (Mana Adept).

[Drknife]

Mage when from main in cataclysm, to rotting unleveled in MoP. I will not play a mage in WoD if the 90 talents stay unchanged.

[leggomydairy]

I just ignore them. I don't use them. Idgaf about my DPS in a heroic dungeon at this point. I have good enough gear to ignore the talents completely.

[Deleted]

RoP - total shit and reason why i don't play arcane
Invocation - i can live with it but some duration extension by some proc would be nice
IW - hmm somebody is using it for pve? maybe some very heavy movement fight for arcane (only for passive bonus ofc)...

ignoring them is stupid if you are lazy than use IW for passive bonus

[Wobe--Vodka]

The level 90 talents are perfectly fine. They add something to the rotation and with the duration/cast time, they are hardly a "burden". Not many classes have a straight damage amplifying talent, so it could be much worse as well. Having to plan your movements around Rune, when you want to evo to lose the least damage, or when/if IW is useful on a fight is part of what makes Mage the slightest bit of fun. Just because using a 1.2 second ability every minute on your 3rd alt is annoying to you doesn't mean it should be taken out of the game. People that want a more complex rotation and enjoy min/max'ing every aspect of the game actually have fun making the most out of these abilities and instead of whining about them. You should give this a try as well, try to see things on the positive side, being negative isn't going to do anything but make your gaming experience much less enjoyable. Good luck!