Current raiding is fine, the difficulty level of 5 mans/questing/trades are bad

[Alvito]

It would be nice if dungeons weren't so easy that clothies in timeless island gear couldn't tank almost everything. It is the last tier of the expansion so things are going to be easier of course. When classes without tanking abilities can easily tank everything and just blitz down the run things have gotten out of control.

[Sooba]

It's always been like this. Except when they artificially gate bosses. All bosses are usually taken down in the first few days except one or two. Then the last boss takes a couple weeks.

Believe it or not, in TBC that wasn't true. While Kara dropped fairly rapidly, Vashj stayed unbeaten for weeks, and K-T for months. In fact, t6 (Hyjal/BT) was released before t5 (SSC/TK) was beaten.

[Grogo]

So we are going to have level 100 heroics and they will be harder? That sounds like a step in the right direction.

[Krazzorx]

Believe it or not, in TBC that wasn't true. While Kara dropped fairly rapidly, Vashj stayed unbeaten for weeks, and K-T for months. In fact, t6 (Hyjal/BT) was released before t5 (SSC/TK) was beaten.

That's because Blizz wasn't good at tuning. Most of the bosses were highly buggy. BC is why they PTR test raids.

- - - Updated - - -

So we are going to have level 100 heroics and they will be harder? That sounds like a step in the right direction.

Yes that's what they've said.

- - - Updated - - -

Ahh, opinion. Okay. Kind of figured when I hadn't heard about that and Google turned up nothing. Cata heroics were aimed at players like me, I loved them, but I understand why they were a catastrophic failure, I doubt they'll ever do something like that again, premade or not. Can always hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it very much.

Lore made a post specifically that they will have harder heroics. Not only that but there will be options equivelant to heroics (GC twitter explaining why it will work this time). Also, there's a difference between blind opinion and opinion based off compiling Blizzard statements.

[Ineluki]

Obviously harder dungeons.

How about harder questing? Bonus Objectives.
Example: "Get me 10 Bear pelts... I'll pay double if you can get Old Grizzly's (elite bear) head!"
You don't have to kill the big bear, but double XP, double gold, double rep if you do. They'll need to make it so you can't level all the way from 90 to 100 in 3 zones like you can in Mists though.

This would be awesome, I really miss having elite quests I always had fun trying to solo them(even though I played a rogue).

[Thunderball]

If you were a priest in vanilla you healed. Warriors tanked. There was such a thing as a hybrid tax.

No, and no. We had a shadowpriest in raids up until naxx, he was a pvper, sure, but his damage was on par and VE utility was also nice, plus you could always assign him to dispelling, just because he's shadow (muahaha). Also, we always had our PvP warriors come in to raids, and they were no pushover in terms of damage. Hell, warriors didnt even spec protection back then. The only tank we had who specced for it was a druid.

- - - Updated - - -

That's because Blizz wasn't good at tuning. Most of the bosses were highly buggy. BC is why they PTR test raids.

Kael wasnt highly buggy, just a very well tuned one, also Tempest Keep was all out harder than SSC, so most guild focused on SSC.

[Azrile]

So raiding is more or less ok, could use some tweaks but I am not going to bitch about that right now.

Disregard raiding for a moment, the other meat of the game is spoiled. 5 mans are ridiculously easy, need to tuned harder for sure. Same with questing. Both offer no challenge at all and it really puts me off. Trades and economy is not great either. Some clear improvements would be nice.

I would like if Blizzard would commit to:

1. Upping difficulty level in 5 man dungeons, bring back CC as well, meaning you have to use it to get through it.

2. I do not like the way talents are done, ok there, I said it. I miss trees and if you cant bring those back try something better than the current.

3. Threat needs to be a thing again.

4. The classes are all the same now. Was defined roles so bad before? I say that was awesome.

You know what is funny? Blizz plans to lower dps numbers and that in itself might be something I might re-sub for. That and harder quest/5 man content.

disagree with everything you said except heroic dungeons. The reason they can´t be harder is because they need to be puggable. There needs to be two types of endgame dungeons, one that is for pugs, and one that is for guild groups. As soon as Blizzard makes content availabe in LFG or LFR, it needs to be very easy.

- - - Updated - - -

You are a tank or you are not one.

No, there is a difference between a guild tank and a PUG tank.

The reason they got rid of threat was for Pug tanks because you would be properly geared for heroic dungeons, but get put in a group with someone who was BIS and that dps would make your life miserable. In WOTLK when LFG was introduced, raiders still needed to do heroic dungeons every week, and a lot of PUG tanks just stopped doing random PUGs because it wasn´t fun to have a mage pop CDs on the pull and then spend the next 15 mins calling you a bad tank. And the more tanks became in demand, the easier it was for us to have a friends list full of DPS who knew how to do the dungeons fast without stressing the tank. And that is why Blizzard had to introduce the satchels to get us to PUG again. If content needs to be completed by people who are BIS and people who can barely quality for LFG, then threat has to be minimalized.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, I should've clarified--the separation was confirmed, but the premade thing is conjecture based on dev comments leading up to and during/after Blizzcon. One of those things were it wouldn't make much sense to offer Heroic for matchmade groups, given the catastrophe that was 4.0 and dev comments on how premade groups are better suited for harder stuff. That, plus the approach they took to Scenarios/H Scenarios (while Heroic Scenarios aren't necessarily hard, they aren't open to matchmade groups which allows for them to be tougher than the matchmade stuff) and Challenge Modes.

I agree, I think they sent the precendence with heroic scenerios and challenge mode dungeons to have small group content that isn´t available through a random group finder. To me, that is the core issue.. if you can queue for it, it has to be easy. Anything that you can queue for with random people will just cause CATA issues again.

[mistahwilshire]

The difficulty of 5mans is extremely unimportant as long as they're in this position of 4-5 days of relevance in the gearing treadmill.

[Azrile]

No, and no. We had a shadowpriest in raids up until naxx, he was a pvper, sure, but his damage was on par and VE utility was also nice, plus you could always assign him to dispelling, just because he's shadow (muahaha). Also, we always had our PvP warriors come in to raids, and they were no pushover in terms of damage. Hell, warriors didnt even spec protection back then. The only tank we had who specced for it was a druid.

- - - Updated - - -



Kael wasnt highly buggy, just a very well tuned one, also Tempest Keep was all out harder than SSC, so most guild focused on SSC.

Of course there were guilds that could drag someone along as a subpar DPS. The first 3 raids, your dps could also auto-attack and you could kill most bosses.

But if your guild wanted to be competitive.. then you didn´t break warrior dps, you didn´t bring priest dps.. you didn´t bring pallys ( they were outside the door waiting to buff you)... you didn´t bring anything but restro druids. Of course there were exceptions.. but my guess is 99% of druids who saw the original Naxx were restro.

[Sumatran]

I suspects for you it is not fun because some people just do not want to be bothered with skill. Do not want to sound like a dick but if you want to tank, having some basic skills isnt a bad thing. You are either a tank or you are a poser, same goes for all classes with their own skills. The bullshit is coming from you bro, it isnt a hard concept but it is an important one.

Yeah bro, I have no idea what Im doing tanking. I just happened to find ilvl554 tanking gear laying around...

[anaxie]

TBC 5 mans: Sunwell geared, Couple mobs not tanked one shot me.
Wotlk 5mans ICC geared. LF healer and planned CDS pst.
Cata Vanilla HCS: DS BiS OH GOD IT HURTS. Someone else tank while i deeps!
MoP 5 Mans: weeeeeeee healer and dps on follow 90%~ Of overall daamage!
Ret ~ Tank PoV ~ LFR SoO 14/14 R tank too

That said when a tank gets angry at me for pulling and one shotting groups by the time hes done typing im 2 rooms ahead of him
Not that he could hold my threat anyhow lol

Ret tanking in a nutshell. Yeah Mops a so easy I don't even need a group

However CHallenge mode things can one shot me which is intended as the new "HCS" anyhow I suppose. Meh

- - - Updated - - -

That's mostly because the top guilds these days do multiple reg clears to funnel gear to mains.

As for OP, they aren't going to ever make 5 mans difficult, not with random queues being in the game.

And at this point I prefer the new talents. It was annoying if you had to hearth out mid-raid to respec into a slow or something, now you can just change 1 talent between pulls and you're good.

Yes after spending every waking hour testing the bosses when avail they steam through them. Outstanding!.

For any competent guild not in the top 3 in their region:

Raiding is not hard new bosses are the same old mechanics presented in a different way. If you have EYES and not shit AWARENESS it doesn't even matter wtf a boss does then it's down to positioning / how to survive lethal boss raid damage/ Gearchecks.

[Ossandran]

This game isn't BC anymore and never will be again.

Wai... not...?

[anaxie]

Yeah bro, I have no idea what Im doing tanking. I just happened to find ilvl554 tanking gear laying around...

ewwwwwwwwww 554

[Zka]

Well, leveling content is surely 100% braindead easy now, with or without heirlooms.

[Museigen]

I have to say I disagree with most of this, a heavy portion of the reason is taking longer does not equate difficulty increase. The people who think time equals difficulty were generally kind of bad but proudly displayed their epeen time sink rewards as "skill." Or quite simply, they can devote more time and think that makes them more skilled than someone who genuinely plays better.

Also I have to say threat (and similarly cc) weren't really fun. Wait for sunder stacks and follow the order or die, it's a coordination idea not a true player ability idea. Coordinating with lfg just won't happen due to skill and gear disparities. Shunning a large chunk of the subs from even 5 man content is not a winning idea for a game already down on subs, not from a business standpoint at least. Now adding more interrupt/stun/avoid mechanics is something to consider but likely not on the lowest end of end game content.

Finally every tank that I've ever healed since active mitigation was a thing that also said AM is boring compared to threat management have been squishy as fuck and generally bad at mechanics like avoiding bad things and interrupting. Where as taking survival before was mostly gear (rng drops and time investment) now you need to actually play to survive. A lot of tanks don't do that well at all.

I find it funny if a dps didn't follow a kill order or didn't wait for sunders they were bad. Now that tanks control their own mitigation, the tanks in decent gear who still squish are the ones who are bored yet think they're not bad and usually still call others bad.

[Zka]

I have to admit we didn't wait around a lot at pull in BC. Hunters misdirected and tanks were good at holding aggro or they didn't get the spot. "Wait for sunders" was not often requested.

[Dole4011]

I agree. 5 man content that was designed for people in 440 gear should be difficult for people in 540 gear.

[Kelimbror]

No, and no.

Yeah...your guild was drinking the Kool-Aid then. While raiding was so easy with 40 people that you could certainly carry anyone, the hybrid classes were nowhere near as capable as the rest. Paladins, Shaman, Druids, Priests all healed. Warriors tanked and sorta dpsd (played fury and fury prot back then, so I know). Anything to the contrary was basically for the lols. Hybrids were not viable until TBC.

[Arbs]

This game isn't BC anymore and never will be again.

TBC wasn't even that difficult either.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree. 5 man content that was designed for people in 440 gear should be difficult for people in 540 gear.

Amen good sir. Maybe they could use this scaling Tech for Mythic Dungeons & those are the new Challenge Modes hopefully.

[Deleted]

Loosely translated as "I want the game to be BC again", especially considering having lower numbers is a huge selling point to him (weird tbh).